Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[Jhhnn]

The market is definitely on the big setups. These guys are driving the hydroponics economy in a big way, buying not just multiple light setups but also automatic trimmers, degassing ovens, and bulk nutrients. Those guys keep the doors open and the lights on so the one and two light closet growers can find a garden store in every town. Commercial and Wholesale hydroponics CRUSHES the retail side. I think this is an online perception because the guys that are doing it that big aren't really on here. They're too busy running a growing business. This is a huge community of small scale growers, but it takes 100 of us to equal the production from just 1 big grower, and from a sales POV that guy has serious clout.

Most of the gardeners running these CMH systems are running them as supplemental lights, especially the DE fixture crowds. DE and CMH both have an optimal operation temperature, so the bulbs themselves cannot be directly cooled in the way traditional SE bulbs have been. There is also a big push right now away from the oversized Magnum and Raptor, XXXXXXXXXLLLLLLLL, kind of reflectors in lieu of smaller reflectors held higher away from the canopy to improve the balance of light. Too many guys putting a bulb 12" away from the top of their canopy, cooking the center and starving the corners that are going to be 36"+ away regardless of how close the bulb is to the center of the canopy.

With these systems we're getting just a ridiculous amount of PAR out of them. The quanta isn't lost when you pull it up a little higher, it just spreads out better. And if your exhaust fan can exchange all the air in the growing space every 30 seconds or so (rated at 2x the cuft of the room) then air cooled hood or not, you're moving plenty of air in and out to keep the canopy temp within 4-6 degrees f of the intake. I did a bare bulb 400w grow in an Econowing in a 3x3 tent with a 4" vortex set to low on a speed controller without any temperature issues.

Another issue with air cooled systems is the glass. When it's clean it'll cost you 5% of your PAR. Throw a little dust on their and now we're talking up to a 10% loss. That's straight up harvest weight and it's why bare bulb systems are taking over.

It is time to rethink grow room lighting and take a big bite of humble pie, there might be a better way than oversized air-cooled reflectors smashed on down.

Please. When I said "the market" I meant the market for CDM. Yes, the larger market is dominated by big growers who still use HPS or, increasingly, DE's. It's hard to see much market penetration there for CDM from a practicality/price/TCO perspective. If you have high ceilings (in a greenhouse or warehouse) & a practical way to move out the heat the DE systems basically can't be beat. They're great if you're in a position to pay the freight on A/C in sealed rooms, as well.

DE lamps are gas filled to promote cooling of the element & are designed exclusively for passive cooling in open reflectors. Lowering the lamp envelope temp changes the operating temp of the element & therefore the intensity & spectral output.

In that we can agree. I have not studied them closely because they're not a good fit for my circumstances. I have a 6'5" ceiling & am limited to air cooling.

CDM lamps are vacuum sealed & do not cool the element via transfer thru gas to the envelope. See sec3.3.1 (page 12) here-

http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc...literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf

No special ambient temperature requirements. Mine work great being fan cooled.

It's not like big growers care if CDM setups are smaller or if they're fan coolable but those attributes are valuable to a growing cadre of personal growers in Med & Legalized states. They're also valuable to a lot of established not very big caregiver grows who use two stage cooling. Circumstances vary enormously so offering a product w/ maximum flexibility is a real asset.

As it is, I went to a fair amount of trouble to adapt my supersun 2 to a dual 315 configuration. I was already dialed in as well as I could get it at 1000w with summer temps that were marginally too high & more fan noise than I liked. With the new setup, I've dialed down the fans along with the temps while using 460w/hr less power. This first run, Growth & flowering are very much like what I was getting w/ 1000w. Lots of small growers want those kind of results but will never get there if it's not plug & play, adaptable to what they already have.

I'd just like to see somebody deliver it to 'em.

 

[rives]

...The Sun Systems LEC 315 is available in a 120v version - they include a small step-down transformer in the fixture. The last that I knew, they were using the Philips ballast. I think that it is only available as an open fixture, though./quote]

So Rives, do you think/know if the SunSystem Remote system is using the Philips ballast as you thought their reflector/ballast combo unit used? Is $500 including bulb a good deal?
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=63962&pictureid=1513335View Image

If so, two will be on their way shortly. Sounds like these are working best at around 3x3 so I plan to attach 1-2 36" SunBlaster T5HOs to each corner pole.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=63962&pictureid=1513429View Image

1 per on the 4x4 and 2 per on the 5x5 should provide enough side lighting, yathinks??? 39w each.

Anyone done a side by side with the Greenbeams vs anything else?

I haven't seen one of these units since it was reported early on that Sun Systems was using Philips ballasts. From their spec sheets, it says that the 120v version of the LEC uses a "120v ballast" and it pulls 360 watts. That does not agree with the Philips ballast - it is only available for 200-277v and pulls somewhere from 338-343 watts depending on what nameplate or literature you are looking at. Sun says the 208-240 version of the LEC pulls 341 watts, which matches up, but if they are using the Philips ballast it seems odd that they don't list it for usage up to 277v.

The remote ballast units don't have much literature that I can find, but they specify a different fixture and part number when jumping from 208-240 up to 277. Again, this seems strange if they are using the Philips ballast. I would suspect that they have jumped to a cheaper line of ballasts, but don't have firsthand knowledge of it. The fixture looks like it is well built, and the price seems to be right in the range where most of the 315 fixtures are going, but it would be nice to have more information on the components. Grower's House might be a good place for more information - they seem to get into the nuts and bolts of things more than most suppliers.

 

[2broke2smoke]

could it be the SS don't offer the 240v option as they have a susd transformer built into the unit?

2b2s

 

[LastHurrah]

Thanks for the reply Rives. The Philips ballast is important to me. I have 240 in my space, 6 outlets. I can order the Philips ballast, Hydrofarm Phantom reflector, and 4200k bulb for $355. The Greenbeams reflector adds a $163 premium (good grief!), but Flip has been very good about returning/initiating calls... just not wanting his ballast.

Is the consensus still to use 4200k all the way through? I'm sticking with the PGZ base after hearing about the pingy noises coming from the moguls.

 

[rives]

Flip is a good guy to deal with. Have you asked him whether or not they can still provide the Philips ballast? I know it's not currently listed on their site, but they have offered it in the past and have had numerous issues with their site......

I haven't used the 4200k lamp yet - I've got a case of the 930's and have been very happy with their performance, but I usually veg under LEDs.

 

[GoldenSyrup]

Just a bit of info for you UK/EU guys out there:

I was told today that Maxibright are going to start manufacturing their own 315w CMH ballasts to power the 315w lamps, and doing away with the phillips ballast which they currently use because "its too big and bulky". Just thought it may prove useful.


I'll come back after the weekend with some pictures of the plants I have under the 4 CMH, they're looking good.

 

[Avenger]

the bulk of the Philips ballast is the potting material. They use the massive potting to protect the electronics from the outdoor environment and to help conduct the heat away from the circuit board effectively. Most hydro branded electronic ballasts have nice fancy extruded aluminum heatsink enclosures, but only barely dribble any potting material over the circuit board. so the heat is never transferred from the circuit board to the heatsink for dissipation.

but yeah, seems par for the course

 

[HorseBadoritiz]

I went to a fair amount of trouble to adapt my supersun 2 to a dual 315 configuration.

@Jhhnn Could you show, or point me to, some pics of your adaption? I have an old Super Sun that works great with a mogul base cmh, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out how anyone could get 2 of any thing in there, LOL!

I've got just under 6' of headroom, you don't know how jealous I am of your extra 5", ha!

Thanks!

 

[IntotheGreen]

Hey all, just received my first 315 kit from ATL :yay:
For those concerned about shipping times - ordered on monday, cross country to my door in 3 days. Not too shabby! Also wanted to mention that I had some trouble using their website to order, so I called and left a message for Tom. He called me back the next day and resolved the issue for me. Good dude - even though he said he was swamped with calls he still took the time to talk with me for 20 minutes. I have read every page of both the original CMH thread and this one, and I know he's taken some heat for timeliness but he seems to be truly interested in helping us out as much as possible. He told me he doesn't offer these kits to pay the bills (his main business comes from commercial sales), but he knows how much bullshit is out there for growers and even mentioned possibly further reducing the price of the kits in the near future!

Anyway - I now have all the major items to set up my new space:

I do have a couple questions though that I would really appreciate any input on from you IC experts.

1) What other components do I need to get this system operational? From what I gather I'll need a power cord from transformer to ballast, socket/lamp cord, timer, and possibly lamp cord receptacle as well?

2) I'm a little fuzzy on the timer aspect. I'm going to be starting the new seeds under one 315 system but plan to add a second unit in a few weeks. From my reading it seems the 1000w transformer should be able to accommodate two 315s, but I'm not quite sure what kind of timer to use and where to wire it in the circuit, or how to wire the power cord to be able to eventually run both ballasts?

3) Looking for advice on which circuit to use:

Sorry it's a little blurry but basically my options are a 15A circuit that's only a couple feet from the receptacle to the space, or a 20A receptacle that is roughly 25 ft of wire away. (Currently I'm running a 250 HPS plus 4x CFLs on the 15A circuit). Obviously it would be nice to have the extra amps available but I'm under the impression that extension cords are a big no no. Adding up cord lengths, there is 4ft on the transformer, and can get 15' socket cord and 10' power cord, so feasibly enough length to reach the lamp(s) without any extension cords. My question is should I string out the components from the 20A receptacle or am I ok sticking with the closer 15A circuit? If it helps, here is a pic of the breakers that these circuits run on - 15A is the AFCI with blue button and the 20A is directly below (half of the tandem breaker):

4) I assume a 240v power cord is what I want even though the transformer output is 220v?

Sorry for the long post but this tread is a treasure trove of information and I really appreciate any insight from you guys, esp. wrt wiring in the timer and the second ballast. Thanks everyone!

 

[rives]

1) What other components do I need to get this system operational? From what I gather I'll need a power cord from transformer to ballast, socket/lamp cord, timer, and possibly lamp cord receptacle as well?

2) I'm a little fuzzy on the timer aspect. I'm going to be starting the new seeds under one 315 system but plan to add a second unit in a few weeks. From my reading it seems the 1000w transformer should be able to accommodate two 315s, but I'm not quite sure what kind of timer to use and where to wire it in the circuit, or how to wire the power cord to be able to eventually run both ballasts?

3) Looking for advice on which circuit to use:
View Image
Sorry it's a little blurry but basically my options are a 15A circuit that's only a couple feet from the receptacle to the space, or a 20A receptacle that is roughly 25 ft of wire away. (Currently I'm running a 250 HPS plus 4x CFLs on the 15A circuit). Obviously it would be nice to have the extra amps available but I'm under the impression that extension cords are a big no no. Adding up cord lengths, there is 4ft on the transformer, and can get 15' socket cord and 10' power cord, so feasibly enough length to reach the lamp(s) without any extension cords. My question is should I string out the components from the 20A receptacle or am I ok sticking with the closer 15A circuit? If it helps, here is a pic of the breakers that these circuits run on - 15A is the AFCI with blue button and the 20A is directly below (half of the tandem breaker):
View Image

4) I assume a 240v power cord is what I want even though the transformer output is 220v?

Sorry for the long post but this tread is a treasure trove of information and I really appreciate any insight from you guys, esp. wrt wiring in the timer and the second ballast. Thanks everyone!

1) You will need cords with appropriate plugs to get from each piece of equipment to the next. You will also need strain reliefs with locknuts for the cords so that the wiring connections cannot get pulled loose. The cord from the ballast to the lamp should be SO cord, rated for 600v. You will also need some orange wire nuts and possibly some yellow (slightly larger) ones. Machine screws, nuts, star washers, and crimp-on terminals for wiring the ballast ground, the power cord ground, and the lamp power ground together and connecting to the metal framework of the ballast enclosure and the hood.

2) Normally, you would want the timer on the input power to the transformer for a couple of reasons - it's 120v, and easier to find a timer; it stops the transformer from being energized all the time. However, if you want to use a single transformer and have it feed (2) differently-timed light circuits, there would have to be a timer for each circuit and they would need to be on the 240v side. 240v digital timers are hard to find and I've never seen one that was appropriate for switching ballasts. You can use either Intermatic T-102 mechanical timers (non-battery backed, will lose their setting every time the power goes off, but extremely heavy-duty) or use (2) 120v DPDT power relays to switch the 240v and use (2) conventional 120v digital timers to drive the power relays.

3) Either circuit will work fine. If you plan on using (2) 315's, that is less than 6 amps total load.

4) There is no difference between 220v and 240v - they are nominal voltages. You will need a Nema 6-15 or 6-20 plug configuration.

 

[IntotheGreen]

Thanks for the reply rives! That breakdown of all the smaller components was just what I was looking for.

Regarding the timer - both ballasts/lamps will eventually be on the same on/off cycle (just can't afford the second unit yet). So in that case, could I get away with using something like this at the wall 120v (2 outlets would allow fans to be on same timed circuit as transformer/ballasts)?
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-Dual-Outlet-Mechanical-Timer---Heavy-Duty
Or this one (has twice the wattage rating of the 120 version) on the 240 side of the transformer and run fans on a separate 120 timer:
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-Single-Outlet-240-Volt-Mechanical-Timer
Or do two 315s really just require an intermatic type timer?
I was reading back through the thread and on page 15 there was some discussion of HP ratings rather than resistive wattage ratings being more appropriate for ballasts, but seeing as though these High Yield Lightning timers are made for grow lights (240 version claims it can run up to 3x1000w, 6×600, or 9x400 at a "rating" of 3600w) - do you think they would be sufficient?

The other question I still have is (irrespective of timer placement): how exactly do I wire two ballasts to the same transformer output? I appreciate the help as I'm kind of a newbie with wiring - just want to make sure I know what I'm doing step-by-step. I'm also currently working my way through the Growroom wiring and electricity thread. Thanks again - can't wait to get this new setup running!

 

[rives]

I wouldn't trust either timer for ballast duty. The relays inside electronic timers are tiny, and if the specifications don't show a specific breakdown for resistive, capacitive, tungsten, motor, and ballast loads, then they have almost assuredly not been tested for those applications. These timers are just some privately-labeled offshore crap that may or may not work, and may or may not burn up.

The Intermatic is an excellent timer, but the problem lies in it losing it's setting when the power goes out. For me, that is a deal killer because our utility is notorious for frequent outages. I use GE electronic timers, battery-backed, and drive the linked power relay with them.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Power_Relays,_Open-Style,_40A_%28AD-PR40_Series%29/AD-PR40-2C-120A

In order to switch two ballasts simultaneously, the power wiring to the ballasts needs to be connected in parallel. If you want to switch the transformer output and were to use the above relay, there are 2 sets of contacts (necessary for 240v). The "common" contacts would each be fed with one leg of the 240v coming from the transformer. On the open contacts, the black wire from both ballasts would be connected to one and the white wires from both ballasts would be connected to the other.

If you want to switch the transformer input power and hardwire the ballasts together, then the ballast black wires would be connected to the black power wire coming from the transformer. The white wires from both ballasts would be connected to the white wire in the cord from the transformer. The power going into the transformer would then be switched with either a timer or power relay. This would be a better approach if you don't want to run the lamp cycles independently because the transformer would be shut off at the same time that the lights are.

 

[Jhhnn]

Thanks for the reply rives! That breakdown of all the smaller components was just what I was looking for.

Regarding the timer - both ballasts/lamps will eventually be on the same on/off cycle (just can't afford the second unit yet). So in that case, could I get away with using something like this at the wall 120v (2 outlets would allow fans to be on same timed circuit as transformer/ballasts)?
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-Dual-Outlet-Mechanical-Timer---Heavy-Duty
Or this one (has twice the wattage rating of the 120 version) on the 240 side of the transformer and run fans on a separate 120 timer:
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-Single-Outlet-240-Volt-Mechanical-Timer
Or do two 315s really just require an intermatic type timer?
I was reading back through the thread and on page 15 there was some discussion of HP ratings rather than resistive wattage ratings being more appropriate for ballasts, but seeing as though these High Yield Lightning timers are made for grow lights (240 version claims it can run up to 3x1000w, 6×600, or 9x400 at a "rating" of 3600w) - do you think they would be sufficient?

The other question I still have is (irrespective of timer placement): how exactly do I wire two ballasts to the same transformer output? I appreciate the help as I'm kind of a newbie with wiring - just want to make sure I know what I'm doing step-by-step. I'm also currently working my way through the Growroom wiring and electricity thread. Thanks again - can't wait to get this new setup running!

Your transformer is an inductive load, like an electric motor, as are core & coil ballasts. There's a large momentary inrush of current at startup to build the magnetic field that all inductive devices have. That's hard on the contacts in the timer. Timers are usually de-rated for motors, often by half or more. 1/2HP is ~750w, so a timer rated for 1/2HP is probably adequate for 2 CDM systems.

There a a lot of different ways to approach mounting & wiring up your equipment. As rives offers, it's important to make it safe & sturdy. This is the patch panel I used for my ballasts-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=57519&pictureid=1443401

It hangs in the intake air duct you can see in my albums. The lamps themselves have not been wired up in the pic but the cords are clamped like other wires shown. You can see how the ballasts wire to 240v power up at the top. It's the same as your transformer output.

The important part is to get it neat & secure w/o exposed live electrical. It's best inside a box w/ strain reliefs on wires where they exit.

EDIT-- Important! 1HP (not 1/2HP) = 746 watts. My old brain is becoming unreliable.

 

[Unclecrash]

Im running two right now on a indoor outdoor timer It has a pig tail on it to plug it in and I believe rated for 20amp @ 120v think I picked itup at homedepot or lowes. Im going to try to run 3 then for jut to see what happens before I finally tap into my intermatic.

 

[beta]

.

 

[GoldenSyrup]

7 weeks of flower, lots of swell in them yet.

Would advise anyone thinking of using the same lights in the same space to use them nose to nose instead of side by side like I have them, there are places in the canopy not getting the sort of light i'd like, that wouldn't be a problem if I'd just positioned them correctly the first time.


Smells are very aromatic and the trich coverage is great. Going well.

 

[rives]

Ok, I'm getting ready to help set up a dual 315W LEC personal garden - Finally! We're going to use air cooled hoods that we already have - Should we get mogul > PGZ18 adapters or just purchase mogul socket bulbs? Should we go with a 3'x6' or 4'x8' footprint? What's the minimum height I'd need to work with? I'm thinking of just building a small box out of 1.5-2" foamboard, but a good tent isn't out of the question if you all have one to recommend. Thanks!

You might want to check the centerline of the hood and the centerline of the lamp and see what needs to be done to make them come together. Most HPS lamps and hoods are built for much longer lamps - the 315's can be displaced to one side and give uneven light distribution as a result. In some instances, the PGZ18 adapter looked like it was about perfect for centering the lamp with an existing mogul socket. I used hard-wired PGZ18 sockets and put spacers behind them.

My hoods work well across a 3' footprint and are a little shy on a 4'. The 3' x 6' would probably work better for you.

With my hoods, I like to have somewhere around 12"-16" between the mature buds and the hood for best light distribution, with 16" being preferable.

 

[Unclecrash]

Wondering how long the pgz bulb is when locked into the base from ceramic to tip?

 

[Joshua Ntr]

I have a few of these current going. Thanks for sharing

 

[Jhhnn]

Wondering how long the pgz bulb is when locked into the base from ceramic to tip?

I happen to have one handy. It's 150mm, not quite 6" from the base of the ceramic seating ring to the tip. There's another 1-1/2" in the socket, incl the pins.

Couldn't find it here-

http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc...literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf

There's a huge amount of information in that link. It's a keeper.