Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[Raho]

i bought '2' hydro crunch 315's on ebay... $190 each - used both in a 4x3.5ft tent - thought the grow was just 'ok'... i asked numerous sites if anyone has experience with this brand, espec how the bulbs mite compare with phillips...not one response ...

i'm torn whether to have another go using these bulbs, as they only have 1 10 week 12hr run on em (840hrs) , or swap em out for the phillips... was thinking of running '1' phillips to compare against the hydro c. , but doubt in a 4x3.5' tent it would be very scientific...

Hi Zach.
although it doesn't review the brand of bulb you mentioned, the growers house website has a very good comparison review of 10 different 315 bulbs.
https://growershouse.com/blog/cmh-315w-lamp-comparison-test-data-review


Hopefully that link comes through, but if it blocks the name, the first part is growers house dot com
I suspect the bulb is a generic chinese unit and should best be compared to their "house brand" lamp (growers choice) which puts out around 17% less light than the philips 3100
I suspect if you buy a single philips 3100 and run it next to the "hydro crunch" the difference in output will be obvious and you will soon be buying a second philips.
The original bulbs are perfect to keep around as backup bulbs in case one of your "good bulbs" dies for some reason.
I know that buying new expensive bulbs kind of defeats the goal of buying the cheaper package to begin with, and at 45 watts/sq ft you should be right in the sweet spot for that tent.

Hope this helps

 

[gh0stm0de]

Get Mo,

You do not want to use an air cooled reflector that allows airflow directly over the bulb. The DE lamps need to achieve higher temps for intensity and spectrum to be achieved. You need a sealed optic reflector such as sunlights. I purchased some from Sinowell that are basically Sun knockoffs for 56 $ plus shipping. Good build quality, and for growers that prefer 315s for some reason, they have great AC 315s with LFSW ballast built in for 200 plus shipping. I got one of the AC 315s for moms and the build quality is great.

 

[Hammerhead]

That 1 MO posted is not a good choice IMO. It shouldnt be used for air cooling DE bulbs. There are DE fixtures with air cooling. There designed so the cool air is not drawn directly over the bulbs. It cool the fixture not the bulb. This is 1 of them

https://growershouse.com/ac-de-8inch-double-ended-air-cooled-reflector

Which Sinowell did u get.

https://www.sino-well.com/

IMO that hood MO posted is to big. There are really nice cheap fixture that take up little space. The important part is the bulb. That crunch bulb is junk. Most all ballast are from China quality wont be much different. Ive used many only 1 that failed is Phantom. This would be a better choice but would need a shield installed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Grow-630W-Double-Ended-DE-CMH-CDM-120-240V-Grow-Light-Fixture-System/112578904505?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150817211623%26meid%3D59029693714e40c68e4198f69dd50a60%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D112578904505&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226

 

[gh0stm0de]

Hey Hammerhead,

I picked up a 315W air cooled "Armour" series from them to test with moms. It is item number 303682 in their catalog. You need to specify if you want 120V compatibility. The ballast is built into the reflector, just like Sun's version. I have only had it operating about 3 weeks but am very pleased - growth notably slower than 630DE however but nice tight nodes.

The ACDE hood I got from them is called "Smart Double Ended Air Cooled Reflector". It is catalog number 303523. I am very pleased so far, but I have seen better builds. The reason i say this is that some factorys place a metal plate over wherr the DE socket is installed into the reflector to block airflow over the bulb, but there are some small unsealed gaps around where the end of the socket meets the reflector. I think im kinda nitpicking on that but it should be mentioned.

I had a comically bad customer service experience with Sinowell but I think their quality is worthy of consideration.

Couldnt load the site but if you would like a catalog PM me and I can shoot ya the .pdf

 

[GET MO]

That 1 MO posted is not a good choice IMO. It shouldnt be used for air cooling DE bulbs. There are DE fixtures with air cooling. There designed so the cool air is not drawn directly over the bulbs. It cool the fixture not the bulb. This is 1 of them

https://growershouse.com/ac-de-8inch-double-ended-air-cooled-reflector

Which Sinowell did u get.

https://www.sino-well.com/

IMO that hood MO posted is to big. There are really nice cheap fixture that take up little space. The important part is the bulb. That crunch bulb is junk. Most all ballast are from China quality wont be much different. Ive used many only 1 that failed is Phantom. This would be a better choice but would need a shield installed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Grow-630W-Double-Ended-DE-CMH-CDM-120-240V-Grow-Light-Fixture-System/112578904505?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150817211623%26meid%3D59029693714e40c68e4198f69dd50a60%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D112578904505&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226

Ah ok i remember this being discussed before, and the reason the phantom air cooled works in that way. I like that one u posted, i might go ahead n get one, anh recommendations on a ballast to run it?

 

[zachrockbadenof]

The important part is the bulb. That crunch bulb is junk. Most all ballast are from China quality wont be much different. Ive used many only 1 that failed is Phantom. This would be a better choice but would need a shield installed.
[6[/URL]

hammerhead - you say the crunch bulb is 'junk'... that could be as i have not tried any others, but already ordered '2' phillips for the upcoming grow..

in the meantime the site you attached 'digital-grow' is the guy i bought my '2' 315's from... he includes the bulb .. in this case the 630 - with no mention of brand- i'll bet ya its a hydro crunch... so if the ballast and bulb are junk.... and i agree most..99% of chinese shit SUCKS... why would u be recommending it ... if i'm reading your response wrong i apologize... just trying to educate myself in growing the best possible weed...

 

[Hammerhead]

hammerhead - you say the crunch bulb is 'junk'... that could be as i have not tried any others, but already ordered '2' Phillips for the upcoming grow..

in the meantime the site you attached 'digital-grow' is the guy i bought my '2' 315's from... he includes the bulb .. in this case the 630 - with no mention of brand- i'll bet ya its a hydro crunch... so if the ballast and bulb are junk.... and i agree most..99% of chinese shit SUCKS... why would u be recommending it ... if i'm reading your response wrong i apologize... just trying to educate myself in growing the best possible weed...

There quality as a company is not good. They make lighting controllers as well. There junk. I cant really say if there bulbs are junk since I've never used them. If there anything like other products they sale id stay away. Find a company with good quality and customer service. I'm a bit biased, all my bulbs are made by Growers Choice. They have treated me very good over the years. I've had the 1 930w test bulb explode on me. Since than all have been good. Ebay has some GC bulbs for 99$.

Ah ok i remember this being discussed before, and the reason the phantom air cooled works in that way. I like that one u posted, i might go ahead n get one, anh recommendations on a ballast to run it?

If ur asking me that listing comes with everything needed. Id get some good spare bulbs just in case. These are the shields needed for open hoods.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Growers-Ch...752905&hash=item41c19fccb1:g:7PsAAOSwTM5Y49Kg

Blast Resistant
Borosilicate Glass
ANSI Standard
Reusable​

 

[zachrockbadenof]

If ur asking me that listing comes with everything needed. Id get some good spare bulbs just in case. These are the shields needed for open hoods.]

hammerhead - another question - the 315's i bought came with a hood that has removeable glass shield - i took off the shield and stored them away , figuring i'll get more light without them installed - now hearing they should remain attached for safety... u agree??

 

[Hammerhead]

315's T12 already have the 2nd glass envelope. T12 are for open hood use. If your using T9 than u need to put the glass back on.

DE CMH/MH bulbs are not ANSI approved for open fixture use. You have to add shields..

 

[led05]

Yes u can but will lose bulb life. Make sure u use Shields with amy DE CMH bulb in a open fixture.

why do people keep saying this when GC themselves don't have shields on their new ballasts/hood complete fixture and if you look closely at their bulbs they are rated open/enclosed fixture, for example on the DE 630 CMH spec sheet here, takes a second or two to load...

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/d2ede1_875c889e47064b479c47a1ad0237f7ba.pdf

Why does shitty info continually get spread in these forums, does anyone ever take the time to read or just keep passing shit around? Is this Growershouse fault, I saw their Q&A around this?

I've been running all types of different lighting for a long time but haven't yet done CMH and I'm a sucker for anything new to me.

$$ really isn't an issue but I have tons of hoods, old ballasts (lumitek & Gavita digi stars), Gavita 750/600 Flex laying around etc and was wondering on folks experience using things such as this for the DE 630w bulbs...

I'll probably just get the new GC 1000w complete Ballast etc and get with the 630w bulb till the 1000w come out, anyone using these new 1ooow ballasts yet or the 1000 watt bulbs if out?

new ballast I'm referencing
https://growershouse.com/growers-choice-1000w-de-cmh-complete-fixture

my understanding is that the Gavita DE's run the bulbs at 400v whereas the GC bulbs want 200v range (630w) and 220v (1000w), not from the wall guys, not the firing (3-5KV) but what the voltage the bulb is run at during it's usage.

Then again, didn't GC first market these bulbs as a simple retrofit for your existing DE fixtures?

....

 

[rives]

why do people keep saying this when GC themselves don't have shields on their new ballasts/hood complete fixture and if you look closely at their bulbs they are rated open/enclosed fixture, for example on the DE 630 CMH spec sheet here, takes a second or two to load...

Gee, I'll bet that it's because Hammerhead had one blow up on him.

CMH runs at several times the internal pressure of other lamp families, and can self-destruct in a very impressive manner. They either need to have a double envelope (like the Philips T12 version) OR secondary containment. Do whatever you like in your own installation, but please don't spread shitty advice.

 

[led05]

Gee, I'll bet that it's because Hammerhead had one blow up on him.

CMH runs at several times the internal pressure of other lamp families, and can self-destruct in a very impressive manner. They either need to have a double envelope (like the Philips T12 version) OR secondary containment. Do whatever you like in your own installation, but please don't spread shitty advice.

geee, shitty advice (where did I give any advice, i was asking questions?) or did I link the companies own literature? Ask hammerhead how many of his posts I've liked in her...

there's been the same with MH, HPS, etc though rare... The company has it rated as open fixture, what ballast was hammerhead using?

no offense was meant btw hammerhead toward you, I was just simply trying to share company literature as they present it to be and see far to often failed info get passed around in here, anyone read the broad / russet threads, my gosh....

I guess because one person had it blow up on them, it means the company isn't saying it's open fixture...

I was sharing information, facts.... That's all

 

[gh0stm0de]

For what its worth, why play with safety? There is no reason not to use a shielded lamp in an open fixture, particularly if you insist on cutting corners by using a high frequency ballast. Light loss is <5%. Bulb explosions seem extremely uncommon, but it is still a risk that must be considered.

I have NEVER heard of a bulb exploding when operated by a low frequency square wave ballast.

 

[GET MO]

That 1 MO posted is not a good choice IMO. It shouldnt be used for air cooling DE bulbs. There are DE fixtures with air cooling. There designed so the cool air is not drawn directly over the bulbs. It cool the fixture not the bulb. This is 1 of them

https://growershouse.com/ac-de-8inch-double-ended-air-cooled-reflector

Which Sinowell did u get.

https://www.sino-well.com/

IMO that hood MO posted is to big. There are really nice cheap fixture that take up little space. The important part is the bulb. That crunch bulb is junk. Most all ballast are from China quality wont be much different. Ive used many only 1 that failed is Phantom. This would be a better choice but would need a shield installed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Grow-630W-Double-Ended-DE-CMH-CDM-120-240V-Grow-Light-Fixture-System/112578904505?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150817211623%26meid%3D59029693714e40c68e4198f69dd50a60%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D112578904505&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226

The first hood you linked was the one I was refering to, i want to air cool so think i might pick that one up. Was wondering about a good ballast to go with it to run the 630s. I asked grower house and they recommended this one:
https://growershouse.com/grower-s-choice-horticultural-lighting-ballast-630w-120-277v

 

[rives]

geee, shitty advice (where did I give any advice, i was asking questions?) or did I link the companies own literature? Ask hammerhead how many of his posts I've liked in her...

there's been the same with MH, HPS, etc though rare... The company has it rated as open fixture, what ballast was hammerhead using?

no offense was meant btw hammerhead toward you, I was just simply trying to share company literature as they present it to be and see far to often failed info get passed around in here, anyone read the broad / russet threads, my gosh....

I guess because one person had it blow up on them, it means the company isn't saying it's open fixture...

I was sharing information, facts.... That's all

What I was referring to is this - "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why does shitty info continually get spread in these forums, does anyone ever take the time to read or just keep passing shit around?" That may well be a question, but...

Yes, lamp explosions are rare and not restricted to CMH. However, CMH grenade in spectacular fashion when they DO go, and regardless of what a company that is simply putting their name on someone else's lamp thinks, they need secondary containment.
[/FONT]

 

[led05]

What I was referring to is this - "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why does shitty info continually get spread in these forums, does anyone ever take the time to read or just keep passing shit around?" That may well be a question, but...

Yes, lamp explosions are rare and not restricted to CMH. However, CMH grenade in spectacular fashion when they DO go, and regardless of what a company that is simply putting their name on someone else's lamp thinks, they need secondary containment.
[/FONT]

Fair / Good points.... I just read some more and saw it was the 945 model that exploded, that design always seemed hugely problematic to me and fragile looking, it doesn't really surprise me it failed. I also don't run MH in open fixtures, never have. I was more asking / confused as to why the company was marketing as such, seems like a heck of a lot of exposure to advertise a bulb as open if it isn't, lawsuit shut and closed if that's the case when something goes wrong. It looks like Ushio just came out with a DE Halide that can be run Open, extra jacket and all I saw...

anyhow....

I asked the question about operating these GC bulbs in Gavita fixtures and here was Gavita response for those with the 750 Flex or 1000w DE Gavita Fixtures.....

"Our Pro-line fixtures and ballasts have been specifically developed to drive HPS lamps. Using a MH lamp in a high frequency HPS ballast can be very dangerous, as the HPS ballasts do not have a timer that prevents hot re-strike. MH lamps need to cool down 10 minutes before they are ignited again. Secondly, in an open reflector you should always use lamps that are rated for open reflectors. HPS lamps are suitable for open reflectors, very few MH lamps are. Metal Halide lamps work on a much higher pressure than HPS lamps, and when they fail they fail explosive, taking with them the outer balloon. Thirdly, our fixtures are specifically developed for non-ANSI double ended high frequency HPS lamps, and approved for this use by CSA and/or UL. Using a wrong lamp in it is unintended use. It not only voids the Gavita warranty, but if for any reason a fire might break out because of such a lamp breaking, the insurance will not cover it."

 

[Hammerhead]

why do people keep saying this when GC themselves don't have shields on their new ballasts/hood complete fixture and if you look closely at their bulbs they are rated open/enclosed fixture, for example on the DE 630 CMH spec sheet here, takes a second or two to load...

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/d2ede1_875c889e47064b479c47a1ad0237f7ba.pdf

Why does shitty info continually get spread in these forums, does anyone ever take the time to read or just keep passing shit around? Is this Growershouse fault, I saw their Q&A around this?

I've been running all types of different lighting for a long time but haven't yet done CMH and I'm a sucker for anything new to me.

$$ really isn't an issue but I have tons of hoods, old ballasts (lumitek & Gavita digi stars), Gavita 750/600 Flex laying around etc and was wondering on folks experience using things such as this for the DE 630w bulbs...

I'll probably just get the new GC 1000w complete Ballast etc and get with the 630w bulb till the 1000w come out, anyone using these new 1ooow ballasts yet or the 1000 watt bulbs if out?

new ballast I'm referencing
https://growershouse.com/growers-choice-1000w-de-cmh-complete-fixture

my understanding is that the Gavita DE's run the bulbs at 400v whereas the GC bulbs want 200v range (630w) and 220v (1000w), not from the wall guys, not the firing (3-5KV) but what the voltage the bulb is run at during it's usage.

Then again, didn't GC first market these bulbs as a simple retrofit for your existing DE fixtures?

....

GC doesn't make DE CMH fixtures anymore. They still make DE, 315W, 630W, 945W and 1kw cmh bulbs. When you say "new" the only CMH fixtures they make are dual 315's now. They also make HPS 1kw fixtures(already available) that you could use 945/1KW cmh bulbs in but you need a shield installed to use them or any MH bulb.. No where in there spec sheet does it say for "open" fixture use. That spec sheet says conversion lamp for any fixture use. Which they are. If you asked them they would tell ya to use shields which are ANSI approved. That's the original spec sheet. It's not published on there website anymore that I can find. No where did I ever post shitty info. What I posted is 100% correct. You should probably learn how to read better. Grower house is not Growers Choice. All of my Digital HPS ballast have hot restrike prevention including EPAP and Lumatek. MAG ballast will not have it. All of my GC lights have hot restrike prevention. from what I've read Gavita doesnt have it. They do say to allow HPS bulbs to cool before restrike

 

[led05]

GC doesn't make DE CMH fixtures anymore. They still make DE, 315W, 630W, 945W and 1kw cmh bulbs. When you say "new" the only CMH fixtures they make are dual 315's now. They also make HPS 1kw fixtures(already available) that you could use 945/1KW cmh bulbs in but you need a shield installed to use them or any MH bulb.. No where in there spec sheet does it say for "open" fixture use. That spec sheet says conversion lamp for any fixture use. Which they are. If you asked them they would tell ya to use shields which are ANSI approved. That's the original spec sheet. It's not published on there website anymore that I can find. No where did I ever post shitty info. What I posted is 100% correct. You should probably learn how to read better. Grower house is not Growers Choice. All of my Digital HPS ballast have hot restrike prevention including EPAP and Lumatek. MAG ballast will not have it. All of my GC lights have hot restrike prevention. from what I've read Gavita doesnt have it. They do say to allow HPS bulbs to cool before restrike

That bit I posted was a response from a Gavita representative themselves, hence why in quotes and I indicated as such. I agree, all my other ballasts have hot restrike prevention too, odd Gavita doesn't.

Thank you for those details, again, I understand what you say to be true, was quite confused by GC clear advertising saying otherwise

I posted spec sheets pulled from Growers Choice. I realize the difference very clearly b/w GH and GC, perhaps you may need to read a little more closely. Growers choice is clearly advertising their bulbs (you should look harder, took me 15 seconds to find on their website) per their spec sheets as open/enclosed and they are there today as we speak this way. Go to their page, pull up the bulbs and then click on anyone in specific it takes you to the bulbs page which then has a spec sheet.

https://www.growersc.com/lamps
https://www.growersc.com/630w-4k

Click on the specs, see for yourself under Physical requirements and Luminaire type - Open/Enclosed how else could one interpret that, it's the spec sheet for the BULB!

I read this very clearly and is why I was confused as to HOW / WHY they would CLEARLY be labeling their bulbs as both enclosed and open fixture when it's always been my understanding this is a no no, just like yours.

They are also advertising for their 1000w fixture as we speak, go to their website, here's the 1000w model specifically designed for their CMH bulbs etc.

https://www.growersc.com/copy-of-gc-1000w

I simply mentioned growers house due to a single Q&A they had on some of GC's bulbs, nothing more or less. for whatever reason it seems growers house is advertising this 1000w ballast as new or something, they probably have too much stock and need to dump it, not surprisingly, seems their normal MO.

The company is clearly advertising all these bulbs as rated open/enclosed, anyone looking at that spec sheet would have a heck of a time explaining it as otherwise.

 

[rives]

The company is clearly advertising all these bulbs as rated open/enclosed, anyone looking at that spec sheet would have a heck of a time explaining it as otherwise.

I think that is one of the dangers of the proliferation of small companies that label some offshore lamps as being their own. They don't do any real research on the product, the lamps may be of sketchy quality, and a scary situation can develop for users that take things at face value. I would be willing to bet that Philips has invested thousands of times more money in just safety studies than Grower's Choice has total receipts.

 

[Hammerhead]

That bit I posted was a response from a Gavita representative themselves, hence why in quotes and I indicated as such. I agree, all my other ballasts have hot restrike prevention too, odd Gavita doesn't.

Thank you for those details, again, I understand what you say to be true, was quite confused by GC clear advertising saying otherwise

I posted spec sheets pulled from Growers Choice. I realize the difference very clearly b/w GH and GC, perhaps you may need to read a little more closely. Growers choice is clearly advertising their bulbs (you should look harder, took me 15 seconds to find on their website) per their spec sheets as open/enclosed and they are there today as we speak this way. Go to their page, pull up the bulbs and then click on anyone in specific it takes you to the bulbs page which then has a spec sheet.

https://www.growersc.com/lamps
https://www.growersc.com/630w-4k

Click on the specs, see for yourself under Physical requirements and Luminaire type - Open/Enclosed how else could one interpret that, it's the spec sheet for the BULB!

I read this very clearly and is why I was confused as to HOW / WHY they would CLEARLY be labeling their bulbs as both enclosed and open fixture when it's always been my understanding this is a no no, just like yours.

They are also advertising for their 1000w fixture as we speak, go to their website, here's the 1000w model specifically designed for their CMH bulbs etc.

https://www.growersc.com/copy-of-gc-1000w

I simply mentioned growers house due to a single Q&A they had on some of GC's bulbs, nothing more or less. for whatever reason it seems growers house is advertising this 1000w ballast as new or something, they probably have too much stock and need to dump it, not surprisingly, seems their normal MO.

The company is clearly advertising all these bulbs as rated open/enclosed, anyone looking at that spec sheet would have a heck of a time explaining it as otherwise.

I've been using GC for years. I know there website well. Like I said that spec sheet you posted a link to is not on there site any longer. I looked yesterday and I looked again at the new links u posted. Like I said there de bulbs can be used in any DE fixture. Its not hard to understand. Until laws are in place that states these bulbs cant be used in any fixture the language wont change.

You as the consumer need to know how to use them the right way. Have you ever seen any DE MH/CMH bulb vendor advertise they require shields in a open fixture. You wont find it. If you ever asked GC about it they would tell ya to use shields. There is no requirement that any customer has to use them. It's your choice to take that risk.

When I swapped out to CMH years ago I had a 945 explode. It caught my floor on fire. I had no clue they made shields for there bulbs. I had to find out the hard way. Any time I talk about these bulbs I always tell people to use shields or closed hood.. I don't want anyone to also find out the hard way.

Any dual 315 uses t12 which do not need to be closed or shields used.

What ever GH puts on there website is there business. They are not the same company. If I was them I would change the wording to the same as what GC uses.