passive plant killer

[zeke99]

never mind. Love it! question already answered though

 

[John Droe]

Mistress, I have that link and have read most of that whole site. It's excellent. Of course, the challenge is to remember it all and apply it. Sometimes i'll go into the next room to get something and then forget what it was. Thank you for putting the link up here. It should be read by everyone. Also, I wanted to tell you i'm going back to ph 5.2-5.4 input as I have not seen the mag problem on any other plant or on more than three leaves. It may have been a fluke. Who knows? The ph goes up from there anyway as soon as it enters the recirculating part of the system. This means no ph adjusters, so "appendix a" just got smaller.

Cactus, thank you!

Hey, Carl! That's a beautiful root ball. Pot roots love coco. But, don't you tire of drain to waste? For a while I had 56 3 gal hempy's going on the floor. By the time I finished watering with run off I was sloshing around in a deep puddle. I drilled drain holes through the slab so it would drain out, but what a mess. All over the world in commercial greenhouses and nurseries there is a concerted effort going on to convert drain to waste schemes to more conservative watering techniques. This is to conserve water and also try to stop as much of the nutrient salts from entering the water table as possible.

I've just finished the 8 oz's every 2 hours experiment and still don't know about growth rate but am satisfied that this volume doesn't saturate the medium. Now I am trying the same 96 oz per day volume but at 4 oz's per hour. I've taken two sets of readings and they show that the increased volume (96 oz) is modulating the spread on the ph readings. On 5-2 I had a low reading of 5.8 and a high of 6.3. yesterday it was 5.9-6.1. I'll do another set today. I would like to see the same effect on tds.

I got a chance to observe something really interesting last night. I now have 5 of the 9 in flower linked to a control bucket being fed from the same volume tank as the vegging plants. When the lights first fired up I went in to check everything and there was no drip from the float valve. About 15 minutes later there was a slow drip. At one hour it was 2-3 drips per second. I had just had a graphic demonstration of plants starting up the photosynthetic process.

Well, I took another hit and thought about it for a while and it occurred to me that this could be a way of quantifying the plants metabolic efficiency for a variety of reasons. You could measure the drip rate with brand new bulbs and then plot a curve over time to make a better decision about when to replace them, relative to themselves. You could compare nutrient programs, relative to each other. Effects of temp, rh, and ph on growth rate.

d9

Delta, thank you for all the good info you have crunched on in this thread so far. I have been experimenting with lights off time during veg in hempy's in relation to the top layer of media (100% perlite) and its moister level/root development.

The explanation of Hydraulic Redistribution EXACTLY explained what my instincts were telling me but my mind was having trouble grasping.

I am currently on page 12/50 so I do not know if this has already been addressed but when you mentioned watering your hempy's and having water on the floor it made me think I should chime in:

You obviously have your system working out for you, but for any other hempy growers out there I would like to tell them that I collect my runoff from watering and pour it back into a pot a day or two later. I try to have as little runoff as possible, but what little I have I just pour into a pot a day or so later or a pot that I'm not watering at the same time etc..

This pretty much means I waste very little water if any, just what evaporates while sitting in the runoff plate which probably isn't very much. Just trying to take the waste out of DTW. Hope this helps any growers out there.

John Droe

 

[jjfoo]

Here is a great read on growing with a controlled water table
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/CDBREC/cwt.htm

I don't remember if this has been posted before, but it is worth re reading. This research is helpful for PPK users.

 

[delta9nxs]

Delta, thank you for all the good info you have crunched on in this thread so far. I have been experimenting with lights off time during veg in hempy's in relation to the top layer of media (100% perlite) and its moister level/root development.

The explanation of Hydraulic Redistribution EXACTLY explained what my instincts were telling me but my mind was having trouble grasping.

I am currently on page 12/50 so I do not know if this has already been addressed but when you mentioned watering your hempy's and having water on the floor it made me think I should chime in:

You obviously have your system working out for you, but for any other hempy growers out there I would like to tell them that I collect my runoff from watering and pour it back into a pot a day or two later. I try to have as little runoff as possible, but what little I have I just pour into a pot a day or so later or a pot that I'm not watering at the same time etc..

This pretty much means I waste very little water if any, just what evaporates while sitting in the runoff plate which probably isn't very much. Just trying to take the waste out of DTW. Hope this helps any growers out there.

John Droe

hi, john droe! welcome!

hydraulic redistribution is a ploy used mostly by trees in dry climates. research i have read recently indicates that these trees have roots deep in the soil column that bring moisture up to the top layer of roots, expel that moisture, and then take it back up after attempting to dissolve nutrients just under the surface in the top 18" or so. nitrogen is more available in the top layer of soil, for instance. i'm not sure how significant the effect is in short term container plants.

the entire world is under pressure to use water more wisely. fresh water may well be the most valuable resource on the planet. far more valuable than oil. in the future as supplies dwindle relative to increasing population pressures wars will be fought over water rights and access to water.

we all should do the best we can to avoid waste.

later on

 

[delta9nxs]

Here is a great read on growing with a controlled water table
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/CDBREC/cwt.htm

I don't remember if this has been posted before, but it is worth re reading. This research is helpful for PPK users.

hey, jj! i have posted a different write up of the same experiment earlier but i like the one you found better. one thing to remember when reading this is that they are talking about sub-irrigation only. intermittently changing the water level is beneficial in their application as it is changing the point of equilibrium and therefore the wetting profile. any changes in the profile represent movement.

movement is good. we achieve it with the pulse action many times a day.

jj, i was thinking about the way you are using the bucket in a bucket and if you were to put some kind of seal on the lip where the buckets seat together, drill some holes similar to mine in the inside bucket, and put a cheap aquarium air pump on a fitting above the water line in the sidewall of the outer bucket you could radically increase your air flow and o2 assimilation.

at this point in time, after looking at the way the ppk functions, i'm firmly convinced that it is enhanced o2 that is the factor most responsible for growing these large plants.

i just got another 16 oz plant dry.

 

[delta9nxs]

i don't normally flower seedlings as i will only use clones for production but i know the g13 is going to be female so i'm putting it in a ppk on the 29th for vegging. i'll take a few cuts during this period and start working them in between the swt#4's.

this is because i'm so damn curious about this plant and it's history. i should be taste testing some about mid sept.

with the rest of the seedlings i will have to take cuts and sex them. this is going to be a long slow process as i have just popped one seed of each type. i have x amount of room to work with and will have to move plants through the positions as space becomes available.

today i played around with a pine bark, rice hulls, and turface mix. after several tries i finally got an air porosity of 35% using 1 bark, 1 rice hulls, and 2 turface by volume.

i got a capillary rise of about 7" so it looks very suitable for the ppk.

all three substances are available locally and are cheap. i have yet to grow in it but if it works out i will have severed my last link to a "grow" store.

i think most of us have materials close to home that are suitable for growing. the trick is understanding how to build the mix.

 

[zeke99]

zeke, what you are talking about is operating it like an improved "hempy". i did that in the first part of the thread.

this will work fine if used correctly.

build the top bucket as i do now. build the bottom bucket the same except no tire valve. instead drill a small (7/16, 3/8) hole in the side of the bottom bucket 3" down from the top. water daily until you get a slight run-off from the hole. the idea is to keep the water level in the bottom container as stable as possible with frequent top watering.

i just want to clarify that this measurement for the drain hole applies to the 11" tall 3.5 gallon bucket sold at Lowes.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Caution: What follows is nonsense.

I believe that the PPK is an extremely forgiving, highly automation-friendly system. I think that with attention to detail, it is one of the best possible solutions.

Nothing, however, eliminates the gardener.

That is, if you do not care, if you do not pay attention, if you do not improve yourself, your garden will show that character.

That is the end of this broadcast.

 

[delta9nxs]

i just want to clarify that this measurement for the drain hole applies to the 11" tall 3.5 gallon bucket sold at Lowes.

yes, what you are doing with the hole is establishing an air gap at a fixed point. i'm not sure about the lowes bucket but my 3.5 gal buckets have a reinforcement ring at the precise 3" level. if your bucket has a ring at this point make the hole 3.5" down from the top.

this will work but i strongly suggest installing a float valve. when i made the transition from hand watering to the float controlled level spots that had been occurring on the lower leaves disappeared.

 

[delta9nxs]

Caution: What follows is nonsense.

I believe that the PPK is an extremely forgiving, highly automation-friendly system. I think that with attention to detail, it is one of the best possible solutions.

Nothing, however, eliminates the gardener.

That is, if you do not care, if you do not pay attention, if you do not improve yourself, your garden will show that character.

That is the end of this broadcast.

and he ain't jivin', either!

 

[zeke99]

yes, what you are doing with the hole is establishing an air gap at a fixed point. i'm not sure about the lowes bucket but my 3.5 gal buckets have a reinforcement ring at the precise 3" level. if your bucket has a ring at this point make the hole 3.5" down from the top.

this will work but i strongly suggest installing a float valve. when i made the transition from hand watering to the float controlled level spots that had been occurring on the lower leaves disappeared.

Thanks again. I've got some new beans on the way from Vancouver and like you want to get all females out of them before switching over completely to the automated PPK. For now, slowly transitioning.

 

[Carboy]

Quantum

Quantum

Delta,
Been away for a month or so and was quickly reading thru my watched threads. Should have marked it when I read it but didn't.
You mentioned going veg 8/4 and i believe getting 43 moles at 14" w/ a hortilux during that 8 hrs. Do you think that would translate in flower to going to a 8 on / 12 off cycle or is that too big of a leap of faith?
What else have you learned on the light side w/ your meter? Apologizes if I'm asking you to retrace. Thanks ............ CB

 

[zeke99]

today i played around with a pine bark, rice hulls, and turface mix. after several tries i finally got an air porosity of 35% using 1 bark, 1 rice hulls, and 2 turface by volume.

Very interesting. Tell us more about the pine bark. I'm in Massachusetts and seem to be limited to pine bark mulch and pine bark nuggets. Is the mulch what you tested? Rice hulls are another product I can't seem to find in anything less than mega-bulk. The mega-bulk source sells it to local farms, not retailers.

 

[cyat]

Hey I.F had some g-13 in the early 2000's in santa monica, some of the alltime best herb I have ever smoked. 5 hour perma grin, spit on yourself from laughing, cottonmouth, amazing looks and smell ( cant remember it tho) and anyone who looked at it wanted it over anything else.that said Ive had it several times since from other people and grown the pnc cut and not one came even remotely close. im hopin you have the real deal.

 

[delta9nxs]

Delta,
Been away for a month or so and was quickly reading thru my watched threads. Should have marked it when I read it but didn't.
You mentioned going veg 8/4 and i believe getting 43 moles at 14" w/ a hortilux during that 8 hrs. Do you think that would translate in flower to going to a 8 on / 12 off cycle or is that too big of a leap of faith?
What else have you learned on the light side w/ your meter? Apologizes if I'm asking you to retrace. Thanks ............ CB

howdy, i want to clarify just in case that i am going 8-4-8-4 in the same 24 hour period in veg. the first few plants achieved 30" in 4 weeks but lately the last few have been 32" plus. i'm probably paying more attention to plant/light distance now. i find myself breaking out the old yardstick and actually measuring and then making small adjustments.

i really haven't started playing with flower schedules yet. i think it's going to be a lot more complicated in flower because of the enforced dark period.

i have a lot of unanswered questions about how the plant resets it's moles/day clock and about photosynthate partitioning. still reading on all this stuff and have not gotten very far along due to the scarcity of information.

good to hear from you. later on

 

[delta9nxs]

Very interesting. Tell us more about the pine bark. I'm in Massachusetts and seem to be limited to pine bark mulch and pine bark nuggets. Is the mulch what you tested? Rice hulls are another product I can't seem to find in anything less than mega-bulk. The mega-bulk source sells it to local farms, not retailers.

sometimes called double hammered pine bark, pine bark fines are the size you want. almost all of it should pass through a 1/2" screen but a few larger pieces are ok.

pine bark is a by-product of the paper pulp industry in the eastern us. the best comes from the loblolly pine which is the most common. it is cheap and lightweight so gets shipped everywhere landscapers are working. i got mine at a bulk mulch supplier less than 2 miles from my house. 46 bucks a yard. a yard is about a pickup bed full, heaping. if you don't want a yard, and most people don't, you can get smaller amounts at the landscapers or from people in container nurseries.

pine bark, like coco, needs to be washed and treated. i put about 5-10 gals in a 30 gal trash can, fill it with tap water, and leave it for 24 hours or so, stirring with a paddle occasionally. the super fine material becomes waterlogged and sinks, the stuff you want floats.

i fish it out with a large kitchen strainer, dump and rinse the trash can, throw the floating stuff back in and treat it with ec 4 calcium nitrate for 24 hours.

this is done to help satisfy the cation exchange needs of the bark, which has a tendency to tie up nitrogen initially.

pine bark has a substance ph of about 4.2 so removing the fines, soaking in my liquid rock 250 ppm tap water which has loads of calcium in it, and the calcinit pretreatment should be enough. we shall see.

also, pine bark, again like coco and peat, is hydrophobic and needs a good soaking before use anyway. you should not let it dry out after this treatment. if stored keep it slightly moist. the atami coco i was using is shipped moist for these reasons.

rice hulls are ready to go, just mix it in. i don't even rinse it. it's clean.

in the u.s. there are 140 million tons of rice hulls produced every year as a by product. the rice industry is actively seeking buyers. but they want to sell you a semi full at 114 dollars a ton. a little more than i need. but if you look around at where rich folks board their expensive horses it is being used as a "premium quality" horse bedding. some pet store suppliers are selling it for other animals as well. it gets used until it soaks up too much urine and gets thrown out. you can also order 50 lb bales online but you have to pay freight. you can think of rice hulls as a direct replacement for perlite. there is at least one online hydro supplier who sells 50 lb bales cheap.

turface needs a good rinse to remove dust. when i used it alone i would screen it to remove fine particle but in my application it should be left in. just rinse it until the water runs clear.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey I.F had some g-13 in the early 2000's in santa monica, some of the alltime best herb I have ever smoked. 5 hour perma grin, spit on yourself from laughing, cottonmouth, amazing looks and smell ( cant remember it tho) and anyone who looked at it wanted it over anything else.that said Ive had it several times since from other people and grown the pnc cut and not one came even remotely close. im hopin you have the real deal.

hey, cyat! here are a couple of shots of the g13. it is outgrowing the other seedlings started at the same time.

 

[delta9nxs]

what do you guys think? is it ready yet?

 

[delta9nxs]

here are:

1. the final mix, ready to use.

2. rice hulls

3. turface after the rinse

4. pine bark after soaking and treating.


this is 1 pine bark, 1 rice hulls, and 2 turface producing 35% air porosity.

be aware that a gal of pine bark, a gal of rice hulls and 2 gals of turface do not make 4 gals of potting mix. this is because of particle size distribution and settling/packing.

i am not saying that this is a superior mix compared to anything else. but it is a very good mix that i was able to put together locally. you all have sources of materials near you that can be used. it's the mechanics that count as long as it is not outright toxic.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

If it turns out that media with 35% porosity perform comparably, it'll show that media with 35% porosity perform comparably.

I rewrote that like six times, and that's the best I could come up with...

Oh... you may have to figure out it's water retention characteristics... will it differ from coco?

HAAAAA POST 2000!