passive plant killer

[zeke99]

start looking for pine bark in your area. wheat straw, rice husks, ground corn cobs. turface or perlite would be good with these things. let me know what you find and i will try to recommend a usable mix for you.

D9, I'm going to ask for your advice on a plant footprint.

Flowering room 6 feet x 10 feet.
veg room - roughly the same
equipment: 1K MH, 1k HPS, 2 x 600 HPS

I've been using the 1K MH in veg and the HPS' in flower, with the flowering side in a figure 8, two groups, the 1k and 2x600 stacked. All bulbs hung vertically 6-8 plants per group.

Do you think I should change this configuration up, perhaps with fewer, bigger plants?

edit: it's a worth a phone call on Monday to confirm, but it appears that Botanicare Cocogro is available within a sane driving distance. It will have to wait until next month, but my next project would be fully convert over to your system. I might have to fly you in for a consultation.

 

[delta9nxs]

I use smart pots which are all open to air, and they seem to perform equal to plastic pots (with bottom holes). It is hard to say why this is and I'm open to considering in certain environments smart pots would do better, I just haven't seen that yet.

I'm not sure I understand. It sounds like you are saying the the water that is in the medium is in a vapor state. Are you saying there is vapor in their with the water, I mean it is not just vapor.

JJ, thank you, yes, i meant the air pore spaces. i really don't know much about the smart pots but it seems like it could be difficult to install a tail piece in one.

 

[delta9nxs]

D9, I'm going to ask for your advice on a plant footprint.

Flowering room 6 feet x 10 feet.
veg room - roughly the same
equipment: 1K MH, 1k HPS, 2 x 600 HPS

I've been using the 1K MH in veg and the HPS' in flower, with the flowering side in a figure 8, two groups, the 1k and 2x600 stacked. All bulbs hung vertically 6-8 plants per group.

Do you think I should change this configuration up, perhaps with fewer, bigger plants?

edit: it's a worth a phone call on Monday to confirm, but it appears that Botanicare Cocogro is available within a sane driving distance. It will have to wait until next month, but my next project would be fully convert over to your system. I might have to fly you in for a consultation.

hey, zeke, my flower room is 6.5 x 18.5 or 120 sq ft. because of this i have to run lights straight down the center of the room. because of the door i can get 5 down one side and 4 down the other. this fits into my perpetual schedule as i flower 9 weeks. 8 of the plants get the light from 2 1k hortilux hps for life. one plant gets only 1 1k bulb for life. so every ninth plant is going to be a little lighter than the others. it's better than having a gap in the program.

this all depends on how big you want to grow your plants. i am in the process of reducing veg time to 4 weeks just to control the size of the plants in flower. i'm finding that 4 weeks veg produces a plant that is more "workable" in that i can walk into the room upright and get between plants to tie up branches and prune a little.

my lights are on 44" centers and i have grown plants that extended well past that on both sides. 60 plus inches across.

most of the people growing large plants say that you need at least a 5x5 space minimum for each plant. i agree with that but don't have the space. that would be 25 sq ft per plant or 225 sq ft for 9. a 10 x 10 space with lights in the x pattern is ideal for 4.

so my plants are up against the wall centered between the lights. i am training them to grow in a flatter plane by breaking branches in the second and third week of veg. this flatter plane gets more bud sites within range of the premium light. they are grown with one side to the light and no turning. four are grouped around a single 1k in veg but in flower they are in the middle of two lights. during stretch they fill in nicely.

since you are going to run a separate veg area i would run the 1k mh with plants grouped around it in veg. your flowering arrangement depends on your schedule. how often do you want a plant? do you want to do a unit grow or perpetual?

perpetual lets you get away with more plants in a given space because they are not all the same size at the same time. another reason to maintain plant mobility.

without you getting more lights i would recommend 4 plants in flower with the 1k in the middle and the 2 600's at the ends. all in a straight line, hung vertically. you will probably need to cool tube them in that tight of a space, i do.

tell me more about what you expect or would like to accomplish. a drawing would help my poor old brain.

d9

 

[zeke99]

so my plants are up against the wall centered between the lights. i am training them to grow in a flatter plane by breaking branches in the second and third week of veg. this flatter plane gets more bud sites within range of the premium light. they are grown with one side to the light and no turning. four are grouped around a single 1k in veg but in flower they are in the middle of two lights. during stretch they fill in nicely.

I read about you doing this and incorporated the idea of a flatter plane into my latest grow. Not breaking branches, but using more stakes and spreading the plant out so it can be closer to the light than it normally could.

perpetual lets you get away with more plants in a given space because they are not all the same size at the same time. another reason to maintain plant mobility.

I would like to fill the room perpetually.

without you getting more lights i would recommend 4 plants in flower with the 1k in the middle and the 2 600's at the ends. all in a straight line, hung vertically. you will probably need to cool tube them in that tight of a space, i do.

The room doesn't need cool tubes. A portable AC is used from roughly from the 3rd of week of June to the 3rd week of September. Not every day, just when it's way too hot or too humid. I try to incorporate the VPD calculator.

tell me more about what you expect or would like to accomplish. a drawing would help my poor old brain.

It's a basement with a cement floor, split into two sides. Because of the way the house is situated, I have to flower on the side that is more cluttered. It really can't be changed. The veg side is more wide open, a nice rectangle. There is a 400 watt HPS that runs in the corner (marked by the 4' x 4' frame) on it's own, not part of the figure 8. The space available for the vertical flowering area is around 6' x 9'. The rectangle on the left is a sink.

Thanks for looking at this.

 

[huntingbb]

For the record, if going to wally's world, there seems to be two sizes of these buggers, which i did NOT pay attn to, and caused me plenty of grief! there's the 413's which are the right size for the 7/8" bit (drilling through the bucket). Then there's the 415's which need the 5/8" bit - .463" vs .625" diameter of the tire plug itself -- the rim hole.

[correction 415 rather than 416]
tr 413 - slime brand - .453" rim hole - part # 2080-A (bottom right corner of front)
tr 415 - slime brand - .625" rim hole - part # 20161 (bottom right corner of front)

 

[Darth Fader]

hey, man! aerating the water will have a minimum effect on the plants as the flow of water is not very great and the entire system is "slo-mo-hydro".

you also cross over into the area of needing to maintain water temps in a certain range just to maintain o2 content. chillers and/or heaters. the ppk negates the use of heaters and chillers.

a better solution would be to aerate the medium instead.

but really, the pulsed irrigation used with the side air holes acts like a big slo-mo air pump every time it fires. using the 21% o2 available from the atmosphere.

darth, it would be nice if your friends would join us and give their impressions of the system.

D9, my very good friend is I think 2 wks from Harvey on a 5 or 6 bucket system. Looking fantastic last time I spoke to him and I'm looking forward to hearing his final report. He read thru the thread after my last visit o Denver and built one within days as a tester. He turned his friend onto it as well who built out a larger 8 bucket system i think. My friend left his sgl ppk in the corner of his room w/ no direct light but was very impressed with the "hands off" nature of the ppk. He built out a 5 bucket system for his next run. Not sure how his friends run went but it must have impressed. I wish he'd join in online too but he doesn't have an account and I suspect has no intention to. I'm not sure if it's just being extra security-minded in this day and age or what. How does the song go? "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean we're not after you." I can tell you that with the level of computer forensics capabilities even today, well ... we are all either a bit daring or naive. Sorry, getting off topic. I'll be sure to relay his reported findings either way. I don't know his buddy myself, so I'm no help there w/ #2.

My point above is not that you need to oxygenate, or add 02, to solution to increase 02 to your roots. If the pulse is delivering 02 via gas exchange, increasing 02 is merely a matter of increasing that gas exchange. My question is, if you're already running a pulse system, why not pulse more if this increases gas exchange? I'm not talking about adding extra equipment, or even running the pump to the point where it raises solution temps.

Congrats on the 22-oz'er. BTW, any idea what would cause leathery leaves?

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, zeke! you are really stuck on the footprint. not many options there, so i'll stick with the four plant scenario. you can grow 4 really big plants in there as the backs of the plants can hang out over the footprint a little.

you are using the whole room as a lung so you don't need cool tubes.

 

[delta9nxs]

For the record, if going to wally's world, there seems to be two sizes of these buggers, which i did NOT pay attn to, and caused me plenty of grief! there's the 413's which are the right size for the 7/8" bit (drilling through the bucket). Then there's the 416's which need the 5/8" bit - .463" vs .625" diameter of the tire plug itself -- the rim hole.

i use the .625 tire valves but still only drill a 7/16" hole for it because we are dealing with plastic and it stretches, giving a totally waterproof seal. the tire valves require a 5/8" or .625 hole in a steel rim. i put some dish detergent on the valve sometimes if they are stubborn.

 

[delta9nxs]

"My point above is not that you need to oxygenate, or add 02, to solution to increase 02 to your roots. If the pulse is delivering 02 via gas exchange, increasing 02 is merely a matter of increasing that gas exchange. My question is, if you're already running a pulse system, why not pulse more if this increases gas exchange? I'm not talking about adding extra equipment, or even running the pump to the point where it raises solution temps."


yes, pulsed irrigation enhances both gas exchange and nutrient uptake.

nutrient assimilation is enhanced because of the continuous presentation of refreshed nutrients in the proper ratios and the mass availability of water, which transports those nutrients. couple this with higher o2 availability because of the pulse induced gas exchange and we have a turbocharger.

this also explains why we can use much lower nutrient concentrations.

the challenge here is to find the right level of application. most of the studies i've read so far deal with field crops in the open soil column. there is very little literature dealing with these principles in container growing.

i have the cyclestats which make it very easy to change duration and frequency and i've been playing with them a lot.

i'm close to making some recommendations about this.

later

editing to say that i have never had "leathery" leaves so don't have a clue. maybe humidity?

 

[zeke99]

hi, zeke! you are really stuck on the footprint. not many options there, so i'll stick with the four plant scenario. you can grow 4 really big plants in there as the backs of the plants can hang out over the footprint a little.

you are using the whole room as a lung so you don't need cool tubes.

I have two cats and their litter boxes are in the basement just outside the veg room. The door leading to the basement has an opening in the bottom for them to go through. Doesn't matter if I have windows open or closed or what season it is, there is a strong breeze constantly blowing through that opening down to the basement. That occurs with or w/o exhaust fans running in the basement....

without you getting more lights i would recommend 4 plants in flower with the 1k in the middle and the 2 600's at the ends. all in a straight line, hung vertically.

So you are suggesting something that looks like this?

o x x O x x o

With the two small o's on the ends being 600w, the big O in the middle being 1k and the x's as plants?

 

[iSMOKE.KUSH]

do you see this setup being beneficial in a commercial opp? 20-30 lights?

 

[delta9nxs]

I have two cats and their litter boxes are in the basement just outside the veg room. The door leading to the basement has an opening in the bottom for them to go through. No matter if I have windows open or closed or no matter what season it is, there is a strong breeze constantly blowing through that opening down to the basement. That's also with or w/o exhaust fans running in the basement....



So you are suggesting something that looks like this?

o x x O x x o

With the two small o's on the ends being 600w, the big O in the middle being 1k and the x's as plants?

no, two plants up against the bench and two plants directly opposite them on the washer/dryer side. four plants at the corners of a rectangle. the 1k in the middle of all four and the two 600's at the ends. this puts your lights in a straight line. not the plants, sorry.

 

[zeke99]

no, two plants up against the bench and two plants directly opposite them on the washer/dryer side. four plants at the corners of a rectangle. the 1k in the middle of all four and the two 600's at the ends. this puts your lights in a straight line. not the plants, sorry.

Got it. Thanks man.

 

[huntingbb]

i use the 6.25 tire valves but still only drill a 7/16" hole for it because we are dealing with plastic and it stretches, giving a totally waterproof seal. the tire valves require a 5/8" or 6.25 hole in a steel rim. i put some dish detergent on the valve sometimes if they are stubborn.

LOL, without soap i managed to pull hard enough to bust a bucket, thus my note - dang grey lowes buckets....

no, two plants up against the bench and two plants directly opposite them on the washer/dryer side. four plants at the corners of a rectangle. the 1k in the middle of all four and the two 600's at the ends. this puts your lights in a straight line. not the plants, sorry.

made a diagram... which is it.. if either:

Got it. Thanks man.

Your a better man than I lol

 

[delta9nxs]

do you see this setup being beneficial in a commercial opp? 20-30 lights?

hey, thanks for stopping by! yes, i see this as being extremely easy to scale up.

i've run 9 large plants in flower on a single drip line with a .17 id. the 1/4" id air hose moves over twice the flow of that so it would be fine as a long supply line for groups of plants. maybe 10 or 12 to a group.

each group with it's own control/float bucket and pump bucket.

this reduces the total amount of hose needed.

if you had a big enough volume tank you could leave it alone for weeks. it is truly the most reliable, low maintenance, low time consuming system i have ever tried. cheap to build. everybody's bored because you just put the plants in, wait a while, then harvest them.

i have alternative ideas for plumbing large rooms that depend on the numbers and lay out.

if you wanted to grow smaller plants in high numbers and horizontal lighting i would plumb it mainly with pvc with short, flexible leads to each plant.

well, let me know if i can be of further help.

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

LOL, without soap i managed to pull hard enough to bust a bucket, thus my note - dang grey lowes buckets....




made a diagram... which is it.. if either:









Your a better man than I lol

hey, those lowes buckets are cheap 70mil promo buckets.

the buckets from usplastics are 90mil and really tough.

if you are talking about zeke's layout, neither. if that is something you are contemplating i would go with the first one.

nice graphics.

editing to say that the top drawing, without the 4 outer plants is what i was thinking of for zeke. i have now edited four times to make a complete sentence, it's a bowl and a nap for me.

 

[jjfoo]

i really don't know much about the smart pots but it seems like it could be difficult to install a tail piece in one.

the work well with wicks made of the same material the smart pots are out of, coco easily pulls moisture out of the material, so it wicks really well. If having lots of air around the roots is a good thing, I think they would be work looking at. I just haven't noticed a difference since I started playing with them about six months ago. I love them for outside. You can just set them on the ground and the roots will come out and into the ground and they wick into the earth.

I cut a pad and have it sit on a grate, the smart pots sits on top and contacts the pad. The pad has four long strips that go down into the solution and create an air gap

They don't fit inside anything so they sit on top. I prefer having this slide down in like a 3 gal into a 5 gal. I find them a bit harder to deal with than buckets, plus I'm not big on having that much evaporation.

 

[jjfoo]

So you are suggesting something that looks like this?

o x x O x x o

With the two small o's on the ends being 600w, the big O in the middle being 1k and the x's as plants?

why have half the light from the end bulbs going out from the plants?

why not have it like this

xoxOxox

Now instead of four plant sides getting no light there are only two (the two outsides)

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

My question is, if you're already running a pulse system, why not pulse more if this increases gas exchange?

your homework for the day is to study the effects of pulse duration and frequency on nutrient uptake and o2 assimilation.

1. Pulse duration--and this is obvious--should be considered in the context of the volume of the pulse (more mathematically simple to consider it in terms of rate of flow).
2. 30-40% Porosity must be maintained within the media.
3. A model of an ideal pulse posits a standing puddle pumping over the whole of the surface area with a rate of flow that exceeds the rate of percolation such that the entirety of the surface of the media is submerged.

Presumptions:
1. Pulse is primarily a mechanical application.
2. With sufficient air porosity, the media will never become overly saturated with H20, regardless of application characteristics.

Current Knowns:
1. D9s coco cuttings that demonstrated pH and residual salts have demonstrated that at whatever volume and timing he provided, a moderately coarse coco was maintained with a relatively uniform salt distribution with a non-flushed feed cycle.

Any increase in volume frequency (taking into accounts variations of media and root density) will not effect the salt-re-distribution benefits of the pulse. It will only effect it's role as a solution mixer and mechanic for gas exchange.

There is, for any given container dimensions, a preferred pulse rate/volume per media to idealize a moisture distribution.

We are working towards a media that both wicks upwardly to feed the plant, and drains downwardly to give her air.

So... If we have a sufficiently draining media, an over-pulse should not substantially effect the performance of the root zone. It may result in more overflow and puddles. But possibly, simpler timers come into play.

Final Presumption: An ideal surface humidity will have water slightly dripping out of squeezed coco from the top of the container. Pulse frequency should not fall below this.

Hi oo.

EDIT: How long does it take for air roots to drown? That's our top end limitation on pulse-through-drain timing.

 

[zeke99]

you all may recall last week i had to buy the botanicare cocogro bricks as my local grow store stopped stocking the atami.

Which do you use? I wonder how consistent they are from the "loose" 1.5 cubic foot bags to the two sizes of bricks. I already have some perlite and Turface MVP.... Am going to inquire about pine bark fines today.