Organic Fanatic Collective

[vonforne]

The Organics Forum is relatively new though, right? Seems like it was opened in maybe Winter 2005-06 or so? It's a wonderful resource now, in such a short time.

I'm very interested in the Dolomite Lime Showdown 2007.

Dignan

You have just named the thread Dig. I will give you a seat of honor right up front for VIP's. LOL Good job.

V

 

[3BM]

Wow, worms way owns sunleaves ... I did not know that. Thanks for the insight Dig!

3bm

 

[vonforne]

I never pay to much attention to the numbers on this thread but WOW!

901 posts 33,231 views

Nice work everyone! this has got to be the biggest inspiration thread on this site. I have noticed the growth in interest in organics.

I have also been preaching at another site to bolster the interest in organics also.

Any way great job everyone and Thanks to Master Suby we are on the Map in a big way.

Lets all keep up the good work and keep that information flowing!

V

 

[jaykush]

I have noticed the growth in interest in organics.

me too its nice isn't it.

Lets all keep up the good work and keep that information flowing!

yea lets keep it coming. i got tons of notes just don't know what to add. what are people wanting to find this thread has almost everything in it.

33,000 views wow

 

[cannigrow]

Yea I was quick to pick up on the teas, and have been brewing them regularly. I was using a organic base before but I've definitely grown fonder toward organics, and I'm not even a hippie.

HEre's a tea i made with some kelp meal, lk, ewc, blackstrap and fish fertilizer after 24 hours. And a little bubba with some decent roots.

 

[vonforne]

I was looking into an alternative for perlite that another member posted up and found some interesting information on rice hulls. They seem to be good for a number of things. Here is a couple of quotes on the subject.

Description: Rice is the principal crop in the North Region of Rocha Municipality, and is produced in 55% of the Biosphere Reserve. After processing, the rice industry produces about 143,000 metric tons of rice hulls per year in the region. This crop residue is not utilized, and in most cases is burned. During 1994 and 1995, PROBIDES ( Biodiversity of Conservancy and Development Sustainable Program at East's Wetlands of Uruguay) conducted several experiments to obtain organic fertilizers by rice hull composting and vermicomposting, and to evaluate the effect of adding different sources of nitrogen and inoculum. The duration of this process was about 4 months. Using standard composting methods, rice hull degradation was not total (picture?), whereas in the vermicompost, rice hulls lost their structure.

Lessons learned: Worms can play a key role in rice hull decomposition, as rice hulls can be difficult to compost, with their high C:N ratio (~70), their high cellulose and lignin content, and their waxy surface cover that impedes microbial attack, due to its low capacity to absorb water. Using composts made by mixing rice hulls with manure contributes micronutrients and improves soil structure (more water and air retention). This is a good example of crop residue utilization and its transformation into a resource. Rice hulls, with their high lignin and cellulose content are a source of the precursors of humus, the organic matter component with the most stability and nutrient availability. At this time, people are adopting rice hull composting practices to obtain organic fertilizers, which are sold in this region for application in gardens, homegardens, parks, etc. This organic fertilizer is sold in bags made from recycled paper.

Here are some links

http://www.agroecology.org/cases/ricehullcompost.htm
http://deltafarmpress.com/mag/farming_rice_hulls_valuable/

The Use of Composted Rice Hulls for Nursery Container Media

Keywords: container media, alternative substrates, nutrition, soil amendments, nursery, container production

R ice hulls are a relatively low-cost container media amendment that has been increasing in popularity over the last few years. A fine, uniform product is achieved by first hammer milling particles to about 1-2 mm, then composting 18-24 months. According to Dan Kuczmarski, Forrest Keeling Nursery, Elsberry, MO, the outstanding feature of this product is its size uniformity and stability over time. After a year or more in the container, there is little apparent breakdown of the hulls.


Rice hulls have a pH around 5.7. Compared to peat they have a relatively low water-holding capacity, holding a weight of water that is about 50% of their dry weight. At the 1996 OSU Nursery Short Course, Dr. Ted Bilderback presented a comparison of rice hull physical properties to those of peat and bark. These figures (table 1, below) demonstrate that rice hulls have a high proportion of air-filled pore space.


Kuczmarki's experience with rice hulls at Forrest Keeling Nursery suggested that the material also has a low capacity to store nutrients. Low water-holding or nutrient-storing capacities are not necessarily negative features as long as long as rice hulls are combined with components that provide nutrient and water holding capacity. Many growers in Ohio are using composted municipal sludge in rice hull mixes, and the sludge does a good job of balancing rice hull
chemical and physical properties.


At Forrest Keeling Nursery they have used rice hulls in nursery container media at 40% by volume, using pine bark (40%) and sand (20%) as the other components. This mix appears to me to be a faster-draining mix than most Ohio growers are using. I personally have had good results using rice hulls at about 25% by volume. Thus, without extensive research on this product, an incorporation rate somewhere between 25% and 40% appears to be a good place to start if using rice hulls for the first time


Some growers report dissatisfaction with rice hull mixes because of their tendency to remain dry at the surface of the container, while in fact the bulk of the growing medium may be quite moist. Growers that 'eyeball' their cans for irrigation decisions cannot rely on this method for rice hull mixes! However, there may be benefits from a dryer medium surface. At Forrest Keeling they had a lower incidence of fungus gnats, algae, and moss when rice hulls were used. It's also conceivable that weed seed germination might be reduced (but I seriously doubt it!). Could the dryer surface also effect the release of topdressed fertilizers?...... Maybe. An interesting research project for all my spare time...........


A final note on rice hulls concerns its use as a soil amendment. This product has been used in golf greens to provide aeration in the soil. A few growers of ornamentals may be using it as well in liner or seed bed production. Brian Decker, of Decker Nursery, Groveport, Ohio, reported that he was going to substitute rice hulls for compost in his liner beds this year, having found that composts tend to raise the pH of our Central Ohio soils to unacceptable levels. It will be interesting to see whether rice hulls catch on in liner production. I would hazard a guess that compost is still probably a superior choice for field soils if soil pH is not a concern.


Table 1. Physical Properties of Composted Rice Hulls, Peat and Bark.

Figures from Dr. Ted Bilderback, North Carolina State University.






Total Solids Total Porosity Air space Container
Capacity
Rice Hulls 13% 87% 27% 60%
Peat 10% 90% 18% 72%
Pine Bark 11% 89% 24% 65%


Note: Total Solids plus Total Porosity = 100% of container volume

Air space plus container capacity = Total Porosity
Air space = the % of container volume that is filled with air after a completely saturated medium is allowed to drain. Container capacity = the % of container volume that is filled with water after a completely saturated medium is allowed to drain.

V

 

[Stoney Bologna]

I never pay to much attention to the numbers on this thread but WOW!

901 posts 33,231 views

Nice work everyone! this has got to be the biggest inspiration thread on this site. I have noticed the growth in interest in organics.

I have also been preaching at another site to bolster the interest in organics also.

Any way great job everyone and Thanks to Master Suby we are on the Map in a big way.

Lets all keep up the good work and keep that information flowing!

V

This is where I come when I have a serious question. Thanks you guys for making this thread an invaluable resource for us pupils.

 

[vonforne]

I actually don't see myself brewing up fungal teas. I'm down with innoculating w/ myco products at transplant, but I'm too lazy to do much more than that. But I follow along w/ what others are doing just b/c I like to learn.




Maybe you can help me get this out of my head then by pointing out where my logic is faulty. ( I have a hunch it is. ) But when I read that ^^^ "After all it is a natural occurring product of the earth" I automatically think, "yeah, but cubensis mushrooms are a product of the Earth and so are morels, but they don't spontaneously appear on grains left to sit out, so why would the specific species of endo- and ecto-myc we're looking for spontaneously appear?"

It just seems like, if you don't innoculate with the specific fungi (listed on the products you buy for innoculating soil) you're looking to introduce, then it's more or less a hit-or-miss proposition.

Can you help me wrap my brain around that one?




Word!

Hey Dig, I have been doing some reading and have got a few things for you to contemplate. The book I'm reading is "Teaming with Microbes" I picked it up at the book store a couple of months ago.

Here are a couple of quotes to start with.

Over a hundred million different kinds of fungi are known, and some authorities suggest a million more are out there waiting to be discovered.

Now it addresses the fungi you spoke of earlier in the post.......the fungi we are talking about live under the soil and can only be seen with a powerful microscope.

Fungi are the primary decay agents in the soil food web. The enzymes they release allow the fungi to penetrate not only the lignin and cellulose in plants dead or alive but also the hard, chitin shells of insects, the bones of animals and as many gardeners have learned even the protein from fingernails and toenails.

hey don't spontaneously appear on grains left to sit out, so why would the specific species of endo- and ecto-myc we're looking for spontaneously appear?"

Now reading on this I found it stated some things that made me think.

I read this:

Endomycorrhizal fungi are preferred by most vegetables, annuals, grasses,shrubs, perennials and softwood trees.

to ensure survival, fungal spores can go dormant for years

Now after those few quotes and some further reading I came to the conclusion that since fungi are the

primary

decaying agent in the soil food web it would be my guess that if you use just about any type of organic material especially the ones that prefer that type of fungi in growth that it would be the fungi there at the time of its death and decaying period.
It would be present in many types of composts. And if we are starting the composting process with different types of materials.....in this case coffee grounds and oatmeal, then would the fungi not be present at the beginning of the decaying cycle? and if we were to add them to the soil structure would they not extend into the roots. And since we are growing in containers it would greatly speed the process.

Now about why we should use fungi during the flowering phase.

finding and bringing back Phosphorus that is so critical to plants seems to be a major function of many mycorrhizal fungi: the acids produced by mycorrhizal fungi can unlock, retrieve, and transport chemically locked-up phosphorus back to the host plant.

Now we know that the fungi go places the roots cannot thus retrieving nutrients that would be other wise missed by the plants root structure. the fungi's hyphea are meters long. They are absorbing organic compounds through their cell walls and transporting them to many parts of the plants root structure.

Mushrooms are simple the fruiting bodies of fungi

So really the mushrooms are created by the soil fungi as a type of by-product. that is what I got out of reading that paragraph any way.

I have a lot more to add but I will let everyone check this out first. If I missed anything let me know.

Minds I, I have briefly read that the fungi can cause differences in the soils PH also but I will have to read further before I post anything up on it.


V

 

[Dignan]

Von- Many thanks for that! It's making much more sense now. Still a lot of gaps in my understanding, but I'm getting closer to getting it.

Sounds like one problem I was/am having is that there are SO many different types of fungi that are helpful to plants' roots in a very direct way. I think there are two main things that had given me the wrong impression that there are far fewer types of fungi that we are targeting than is actually the case is :

1. I've heard people talk about how endo and ectomyc are specific to certain types of plants. In other words, endomyc that benefit a tomato plant won't necessarily benefit a plum tree.

2. When you read the labels on the myc-innoculation products, they always list the same 10-20 specific types of fungi. I guess that just gave me the impression that those were the only ones beneficial (directly) to plants.

But the picture is obviously much larger than that and more complicated*. And in another respect, more simple.

*I keep finding this over and over in organics... this paradox where it's both complicated and simple at the same time. Guess that's true of Nature in general.

Thanks, V.

Dig

 

[Guest]

dam.... i loves this organic stuff! it kinda brings me back to my youthfull days as a kid, wondering about all the cool stuff i learned in science class and trying to do experiments in my backyard... digging up soil, and capturing earth worms and starting a farm... i am reading up alot here but was wondering what good books
any you guys think is good or recomend?

i threw my fungus into my new soil mix thats still sitting, i just checked it now and, dam...... that shit is bearded the hell up! now, how do i go abouts keeping them in the soil all healthy until i use the soil?

 

[3BM]

Hey bc:

Ive always liked "Worms eat my garbage". Since compost is the foundation of any organic method, its a nice place to start as well.

Von:

Great stuff! I know that "fruiting bodies" are reproductive structures produced by a mycelial network. Further, any tiny piece of mycelium will repopulate the entire network if conditions are right. As Von discussed, tiny pieces will be present at the outset of nearly any un-sterilized soil. Turn over lawn soil and BAM instant innoculant. Whats more they are adapted to your specific climate. Bringing these methods indoors introduces new environmental considerations. Beneficial bacteria and fungus are present in top soil, but so are their harmful forms. For this reason, many people start with a sterile medium: making the reintroduction of beneficial fungus (and bacteria) necessary. Well sorry to ramble there, maybe thats way off topic.

3bm

 

[vonforne]

dam.... i loves this organic stuff! it kinda brings me back to my youthfull days as a kid, wondering about all the cool stuff i learned in science class and trying to do experiments in my backyard... digging up soil, and capturing earth worms and starting a farm... i am reading up alot here but was wondering what good books
any you guys think is good or recomend?

i threw my fungus into my new soil mix thats still sitting, i just checked it now and, dam...... that shit is bearded the hell up! now, how do i go abouts keeping them in the soil all healthy until i use the soil?

buttcrack, I was going to top dress directly into the soil the plants are in. I mixed some oatmeal, fresh coffee grounds and some coffee grounds that were under the sink for a while with this orange fungus that had dried on it. I put it in a big pot and added tepid water and mixed it up.

I have been reading books by Dr. Elanie Ingham PHD. She is the head of the Soil Food Web Inc.

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html

The second link is something to get you started.

the other book is "Teaming with Microbes" A Gardeners Guide to the Soil Food Web By Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis with the forward done by Dr. Elaine Ingham.


Hey 3BM good post. I am glad you have came here to join us.

V

 

[vonforne]

# Kuntan culture: This is a unique system in Japan and Kuntan used as media is the carbonized rice hulls. Kuntan is very light in weight and has a great capacity to retain water; because of this, it can be used as media effectively. However, this material has its own defects: chemically, it has high pH values and much water soluble potassium, while physically, it is apt to be broken finely. Nutrient solution is applied by the dripping method.

ii) Rice hull culture: Rice hulls are used as media without making them into Kuntan. They are the material easiest to be obtained for Japanese farmers and can be disposed after use. Phosphorus and potassium all leached out from rice hulls to some extent, but their pH value is stable, showing slightly acid. Rice hulls are porous, too. As they don't absorb water readily at first, they should be matured for some time or mixed with Kuntan, perlite or other substrates having a good water retaining capacity.

Here are a couple of things I came across on rice hulls.

V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Hey V,

Here in Thailand that Kuntan stuff is used at nurseries to root cuttings. For example when you go and buy a plant it comes in a little black plastic container filled with that rice husk charcoal. I have a few handfulls of the stuff in my containers. Now I just mix it in with my compost/soil and let it sit. I am sure you have read the article posted before about terra preta! It gives the soil that lovely rich black look and the K source is also great!

The only time I saw a problem using the Kuntan is when I tried that soil mix of 25%kuntan 25%used coffee 25%soil and 25% uhhh I'll have to look back and see exactly, but in small amounts its great..I will take more photos of my grow and you can see that the plants are fine with it...now that I have the tea brewing and the humic/fulvic acids in the mix! :

The nurseries here also use the rice husk hulls mixed with the sticky white clay. Usually flowers are propagated in this type of mixture. It appears to be more hulls than clay roughly 70/30 I'd say.

 

[Scay Beez]

some thoughts...

some thoughts...

Nice article from skunk magazine on teas! Good info to the public.

I like the idea of starting a fungus culture early instead of brewing a tea longer. Top dressing & adding a culture to your teas would ultimately be the best. Fungus can't multiply in a tea but only get a little bigger. Fungus goes apenuts in coco when its kept wet majority of the time. The only time I've ever taken out a rootball and had major fungus growth in there was with coco that was kept moist the entire grow (haven't had the pleasure of using real compost yet).

Corn syrup and Bragg's liquid aminos (liquid soy meal) are two fungus foods that the SFI crowd uses to get a good fungus culture started. The braggs breaks down into all the amino acids (complete protein).

I always wondered why oatmeal was in Earth Juice Catalyst. So does oatmeal eventually liquify? I really like the oatmeal idea... calcium good for coco growers.

Also, does it make sense for a company like AN to market Pirahna, Tarantula, etc, when people are going to use synthetic ferts and just kill off everything??
(please spare the AN hatred, I know how many people feel, keep it civil)

I know that anything over 100ppm of N will kill off bacteria (according to Teaming with Microbes), I'm not sure the levels of P and K that are deadly. I'm sure that the microbes will convert some of the nutrients but if you were to use all their products (especially chemmy ones) then I could almost guarantee they'd be dead. I know their hydrogen peroxide product definitely would!

So really the mushrooms are created by the soil fungi as a type of by-product. that is what I got out of reading that paragraph any way.

If you let a soil pot go very dry that has a good myco colony established, mushrooms will form at the top and let out spores. This is how the fungus reproduces. Just like the article at the beginning of the OFC that jaykush posted about making your own myco powder.


I've been using this fractionally distilled aloe that has no preservatives or additives of any kind (I've been drinking it also) and this stuff rules! George's always activa aloe is the brand. I had thick clean white foam for 6 days straight.

Also what is everyone's take on compost tea foam and foam color? IMO, I think that dark black and brown colored foam tells me that there's not enough oxygen or too much food. More "biofilm" to me means more good bacteria dying. Biofilm is what they refer to the dark colored left over residue that should not be added to your teas.

I also think that humic acid that comes from vegetative matter, clay, or butte sand to be superior to humic acid from Leonardite sources. Less smell, more foam IME, and a cleaner source IMO.

I have been messing around with amber agave and I find it to not be very beneficial so far. It leaves spots when used as a foliar and doesn't make my teas bubble more; even with more or less sugars and mixing it with or without BSM. Slower to break down in the body seems slower to break down in compost. Diabetic friendly sugars don't seem to be very beneficial so far in compost teas. Could be nice in compost. I like the idea of using desert plants to combat heat like aloe & yucca. I still have some stevia extract to play around with which is supposed to be 100 times sweeter than sugar.

I have some rice hulls that my hommie that owns a garden store gave me but I haven't had time to try them out. I haven't heard any complaints just make sure not to reuse them more than 2 crops cause they start to break down.


Great discussion and info! Keep it comming, fanatics can't get enough!


- sbz

 

[cannigrow]

Good stuff SBV, although I'm skeptical of the over 100 ppm of N bit, it could be true. I like your take on the humic though, and the condition of the teas. The color and such are probably important details. I actually have a decent amount of coco kicking around so I might try using some of it, given what you said about how it works with the fungi. I'll have to try out that aloe too,

good stuff.

 

[Skepticus]

whoa this is a good thread from the little I have seen of it (the title and a quick skim of the first post)! I want to grow organic but it seems so complex, it seems so much easier to use my buddy Lou's method of Miracle-Gro and 2 week flush before harvest. But there is some sweet info even from what little I saw on mixing soil and adding nutes. So I am "marking my terrritory" so I can come back and easily check things out from a "my posts" search. thanks for what I'm sure will be many hours, days, maybe even weeks of informative learning!

 

[vonforne]

I have a question for everyone. Now, we all talk of the preference of using powdered dolomite over pellets and even encourage that we or they grind it up. Right?

No jump forward to the discussion of using fungi. We know that it reaches out and goes to areas of the soil structure that the roots do not. It helps make available phosphorus that would be other wise lost.

Ok, if you were to use fungi, which we do, would not the fungi help to bring the substances to the roots? Whether it is pellet or powder?

So, there would be no difference in using pellets or powder. Or there should not be. If the fungi has been properly introduced to the soil and it is intact then either could be used with out any noticeable difference.

V

 

[PHB]

vonforne,
The REv recommends the pellets because it allows pockets of different ph. His theory is that this allows fungi and bacteria to both have different areas in the soil that favor their ideal ph levels.

PHB

 

[Dignan]

I have a question for everyone. Now, we all talk of the preference of using powdered dolomite over pellets and even encourage that we or they grind it up. Right?

No jump forward to the discussion of using fungi. We know that it reaches out and goes to areas of the soil structure that the roots do not. It helps make available phosphorus that would be other wise lost.

Ok, if you were to use fungi, which we do, would not the fungi help to bring the substances to the roots? Whether it is pellet or powder?

So, there would be no difference in using pellets or powder. Or there should not be. If the fungi has been properly introduced to the soil and it is intact then either could be used with out any noticeable difference.

V

Great great point, V. And something I think we all need to "cozy up with" more. Like PB said ...and I know you're aware of already, hence your plan to run pelletized vs. powdered dolo lime in the near future here... "The Rev" uses pellets because they create zones of varying pH to accommodate various types of microlife.

But that, in my mind, is just one example of how we could benefit from taking even one more step back from what we do with soil, to get the bigger picture. The Rev is a guy who a couple of years ago lectured me about mixing all soil ammendments (with exceptions) so that they exist in the soil in "pockets" or "hot zones" or "spikes."

His opinion is that plants roots and the microlife in the soil are specialized to a degree that we don't usually give them credit for. In other words, the roots will seek out the things they want or need and avoid those things in the soil they don't want or can't use.

They will do this as long as you give them options. But when you mix everything globally (i.e. so that it is completely mixed throughout the soil mix, evenly throughout), the roots have only one single choice, which is to bathe themselves in whatever you've given them. If they don't like what you're serving up, the poor things have no escape hatch to get away. They're stuck.

Now... that's all his theory. Or, as he would tell you very passionately, his understanding. I don't pretend to be as knowledegable or intuitive when it comes to soil or plants. I'm truly still a newbie at this stuff.

But, to my mind, what the Rev said/says really resonates with me. It makes sense in an intuitive way. And the more I learn and experience, the more I think, "That crazy old dude is ON to something man. He was right about SO much."

And if you see the wacky things he does and then take a look at his garden... hoo doggy! It's hard to argue with the guy because his plants look beyond healthy... they truly look happy.

Dignan