Organic Fanatic Collective

[Suby]

I'm glad you guys are showing the same interest I am in fungal teas, I'll be giving that a go when my new babbies hit flowering.
I am taking this in another direction as well, coc which is naturally high in trichoderma could also aid in taking soil biology in a more fungal direction.
My current mix contains coco peat but I think before I transplant into it I will bump up the coco to about 30% of mix, I have seen alot of coco grows do great in flowering, it would seem that the initial release of K in the prerinsed material as well as the potential increase in available P due to cationic exchange seems to leave me with another piece of this huge organic puzzle.

Suby

 

[Dignan]

The Rev has always said that the real crux of organic growing comes in the flowering phase, which is hard to precisely nail down in organics but fairly easy using synthetic methods. Veg is a piece of cake in organics. He has said that one of his greatest leaps with regard to organic growing skills is figuring out how absolutely crucial healthy mycorhizzal colonization is during flowering, as the fungi perform some very useful and essential functions when it comes to P and K processing and delivery to the plants.

On a related note... I have to admit that I'm still skeptical about a certain portion of this fungal tea business, and that is that there are obviously hundreds of thousands of different kinds of fungi present in soil and in nature in general. And the bulk of them are not directly related to plants' roots or plant processes at all. The ones that are are specialized for that very thing. So I wonder about making some concoction that grows a lot of fungi on it and then just going, "Yep, that's it... fungi are good for the plants, toss it in! Never mind what type of fungi it is!"

So I've been wondering why nobody has been talking about actually innoculating your fungal teas (or the coffee grounds/oats/etc. concoction) with mycorhizzal fungi types. In other words, shouldn't we be innoculating with rhizosphere-specific fungi from horticultural-specific myco-innoculation products rather than just allowing whatever fungi spores happen to be in the air at the moment to colonize the ground/oats/soil?

 

[Suby]

That's a good point Diggums,

I look at it this way, if we are spawning fungi the right way we are getting the right kinds, by combining ingredients that naturally encourage fungi then we are harvesting a general sampling of the right types of fungi.
This being said it might be worth a try to use some mychorizal innoculants in the spawning material, I swear by them at every transplant.
I use it with my final transplants so I know the advantages.
This tecnique won't make a world of difference so I have to agree, it seems pretty hit and miss unless we have a sample analyzed, any University Grads out there lol?
What it has done however is helped me understand what types of soil ammendments or tea ingredient might be beneficial at different stages.
We know that high levels of molasses can give bacteria a strong headstart so I'll be going much softer on molasses during flowering, also as far as feeding goes I'll be trying yucca or aloe extracts among others like topdressing with coffee grounds.
This can lead us to ways of producing fungus specific composts, by carefully choosing our compost material we could make a flowering soil sampling heavy in fungi.
In a finished compost I think it's safe to say the present fungus are of the soil biosphere kind.

I love your objectivity Dman, it's essential in seperating fact from fantasy especially on a pot site lol.

Peace
Suby

 

[Dignan]

This being said it might be worth a try to use some mychorizal innoculants in the spawning material, I swear by them at every transplant.

I use it with my final transplants so I know the advantages.

I agree with you. I've never observed (yet, just because I haven't had much time to experiment) advantages in terms of flowering/floral formation, but I have noticed that plants that I forget to innoculate at the first transplant are more sensitive to nutrient burn, are less drought-tolerant and less tolerant of pH swings.

In a finished compost I think it's safe to say the present fungus are of the soil biosphere kind.

But are they of the rhizosphere kind? (I'm asking because I don't know. ) Not all soil-borne fungi are mycorhizzal fungi, right? In other words, not all fungus in the soil is of the type that grows on or in the roots and forms a direct symbiotic relationship with the plant.

When I grow psilocybin mushrooms, for instance, they subsist on complex carbohydrates/sugars, like grains. They don't work symbiotically with plants. At least not in a direct way, though I'm sure they contribute to the overall health of the soil and planet in general.

I also know from growing cubensis mushrooms that spores and fungi compete with one another to colonize a certain substrate. You sterilize the substrate, then make sure you introduce only the spores of the fungi you want to grow and no others, so the cubensis spores aren't out-competed by other spores present in the air or substrate.

Thus, if we're trying to introduce endo- and ectomycorhizzal fungi to the soil, shouldn't we introduce those spores in numbers great enough that they can gain a foothold over other forms of fungi? So they can out-compete the others?

I love your objectivity Dman, it's essential in seperating fact from fantasy especially on a pot site lol.

Peace
Suby

Thank you, Suby. That means a lot coming from you, who I consider to be one of the most helpful, kind and level-headed members of this community.

Dignan

 

[Suby]

I often wish I had MORE answers than question but I'm far from having a PhD lol.

Since we are on the topic of fungi I though I should post this, it's by Vmans favorite organic preacher, Dr. Ingham

Soil Biology
The Soil Biology Primer
Chapter 4: SOIL FUNGI
By Elaine R. Ingham

THE LIVING SOIL: FUNGI
Fungi are microscopic cells that usually grow as long threads or strands called hyphae, which push their way between soil particles, roots, and rocks. Hyphae are usually only several thousandths of an inch (a few micrometers) in diameter. A single hyphae can span in length from a few cells to many yards. A few fungi, such as yeast, are single cells.

Hyphae sometimes group into masses called mycelium or thick, cord-like “rhizomorphs” that look like roots. Fungal fruiting structures (mushrooms) are made of hyphal strands, spores, and some special structures like gills on which spores form. (See figure) A single individual fungus can include many fruiting bodies scattered across an area as large as a baseball diamond.

Fungi perform important services related to water dynamics, nutrient cycling, and disease suppression. Along with bacteria, fungi are important as decomposers in the soil food web. They convert hard-to-digest organic material into forms that other organisms can use. Fungal hyphae physically bind soil particles together, creating stable aggregates that help increase water infiltration and soil water holding capacity.

Soil fungi can be grouped into three general functional groups based on how they get their energy. Decomposers – saprophytic fungi – convert dead organic material into fungal biomass, carbon dioxide (CO2), and small molecules, such as organic acids. These fungi generally use complex substrates, such as the cellulose and lignin, in wood, and are essential in decomposing the carbon ring structures in some pollutants. A few fungi are called “sugar fungi” because they use the same simple substrates as do many bacteria. Like bacteria, fungi are important for immobilizing, or retaining, nutrients in the soil. In addition, many of the secondary metabolites of fungi are organic acids, so they help increase the accumulation of humic-acid rich organic matter that is resistant to degradation and may stay in the soil for hundreds of years.

Mutualists – the mycorrhizal fungi – colonize plant roots. In exchange for carbon from the plant, mycorrhizal fungi help solubolize phosphorus and bring soil nutrients (phosphorus, nitrogen, micronutrients, and perhaps water) to the plant. One major group of mycorrhizae, the ectomycorrhizae (Figure 3), grow on the surface layers of the roots and are commonly associated with trees. The second major group of mycorrhizae are the endomycorrhizae that grow within the root cells and are commonly associated with grasses, row crops, vegetables, and shrubs. Arbuscular mycorrhizal (AM) fungi (Figure 4) are a type of endomycorrhizal fungi. Ericoid mycorrhizal fungi can by either ecto- or endomycorrhizal.

The third group of fungi, pathogens or parasites, cause reduced production or death when they colonize roots and other organisms. Root-pathogenic fungi, such as Verticillium, Pythium, and Rhizoctonia, cause major economic losses in agriculture each year. Many fungi help control diseases. For example, nematode-trapping fungi that parasitize disease-causing nematodes, and fungi that feed on insects may be useful as biocontrol agents.

Figure 1: Many plants depend on fungi to help extract nutrients from the soil. Tree roots (brown) are connected to the symbiotic mycorrhizal structure (bright white) and fungal hyphae (thin white strands) radiating into the soil.
Credit: Randy Molina, Oregon State University, Corvallis Figure 2: Fungus beginning to decompose leaf veins in grass clippings.
Credit: No. 48 from Soil Microbiology and Biochemistry Slide Set. 1976. J.P. Martin, et al., eds. SSSA, Madison WI.

Figure 3: Ectomycorrhizae are important for nutrient absorption by tree and grape roots. The fungus does not actually invade root cells but forms a sheath that penetrates between plant cells. The sheath in this photo is white, but they may be black, orange, pink, or yellow.
Credit: USDA, Forest Service, PNW Research Station, Corvallis, Oregon Figure 4: The dark, round masses inside the cells of this clover root are vesicules for the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus (AM).
Credit: Elaine R. Ingham

WHERE ARE FUNGI?
Saprophytic fungi are commonly active around woody plant residue. Fungal hyphae have advantages over bacteria in some soil environments. Under dry conditions, fungi can bridge gaps between pockets of moisture and continue to survive and grow, even when soil moisture is too low for most bacteria to be active. Fungi are able to use nitrogen up from the soil, allowing them to decompose surface residue which is often low in nitrogen.

Fungi are aerobic organisms. Soil which becomes anaerobic for significant periods generally loses its fungal component. Anaerobic conditions often occur in waterlogged soil and in compacted soils.

Fungi are especially extensive in forested lands. Forests have been observed to increase in productivity as fungal biomass increases.

Figure 5: In arid rangeland systems, such as southwestern deserts, fungi pipe scarce water and nutrients to plants.
Credit: Jerry Barrow, USDA-ARS Jornada Experimental Range, Las Cruces, NM. Figure 6: Mushrooms, common in forest systems, are the fruiting bodies made by a group of fungi called basidiomycetes. Mushrooms are "the tip of the iceberg" of an extensive network of underground hyphae.
Credit: Ann Lewandowski, NRCS Soil Quality Institute

MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI IN AGRICULTURE
Mycorrhiza is a symbiotic association between fungi and plant roots and is unlike either fungi or roots alone. Most trees and agricultural crops depend on or benefit substantially from mycorrhizae. The exceptions are many members of the Cruciferae family (e.g., broccoli, mustard), and the Chenopodiaceae family (e.g. lambsquarters, spinach, beets), which do not form mycorrhizal associations. The level of dependency on mycorrhizae varies greatly among varieties of some crops, including wheat and corn.

Land management practices affect the formation of mycorrhizae. The number of mycorrhizal fungi in soil will decline in fallowed fields or in those planted to crops that do not form mycorrhizae. Frequent tillage may reduce mycorrhizal associations, and broad spectrum fungicides are toxic to mycorrhizal fungi. Very high levels of nitrogen or phosphorus fertilizer may reduce inoculation of roots. Some inoculums of mycorrhizal fungi are commercially available and can be added to the soil at planting time.

Figure 7: Mycorrhizal fungi link root cells to soil particles. In this photo, sand grains are bound to a root by hyphae from endophytes (fungi similar to mycorrhizae), and by polysaccharides secreted by the plant and the fungi.
Credit: Jerry Barrow, USDA-ARS Jornada Experimental Range, Las Cruces, NM.
[\quote]

something to chew on .

Suby

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/fungi.html

 

[vonforne]

MI have you considered Sulpomag?



http://www.basic-info-4-organic-fertilizers.com/sulpomag.html

The link is quite nice also.
I've been toying with sulpomag as way of boosting Potassium levels in flowering

Suby
S

Suby, I have been using this one and have had great results. It is the same but OMRI listed.

http://www.kmag.com/products/premium.htm

It is 0-0-22. I use it with molasses and it gives a hell of a kick in P in flowering. I called it our Organic bloom booster and would put it up against any chem booster out there.

V

 

[vonforne]

Dig-Suby how is it going? I see everyone has the fungal bug.

And have been reading Dr. Ingham. Even better.

Now about the fungi specifics Dig is talking about. It is my take that if you use any substance (natural) that will naturally decompose it will provide rhizospheric specific fungi. After all it is a natural occurring product of the earth. Correct?

Now there have been studies recently addressing the different types of fungi with the discovery on some new ones. Tricodermea being one of them and its correlation with the plants root structure. Also the ones listed above.

Now if you want a really mind blowing read, read Dr. Inghams books. And I cannot read that stuff stoned. to much to take in. LOL

Now another thing I wanted to let you in on is the use of TurfPro and Rich Earth. Both are great products and I have been seeing great results with the TurfPro. It is just a super consentrated form of Humic and Fulvic acids with a mineral kicker (60).

Here are the links.

http://www.richearth.net/

# 1-757-858-8011 ext. 401 and 402 ask for Kim or Chris

They sent me two free packs to try out for free.

The second is just about the same thing from what I have found out before. I was at the garden shop yesterday and the clerk gave me a big bag for free about 5 lbs. It comes in the liquid form and the granular form. It is called TurfPro here is the link

http://www.turfprousa.com/

It is Soil Food Web approved by Dr. Elaine Ingham herself. Which to me is better than the OMRI certification.


V

 

[vonforne]

Hello all,

Von, I wanted to ask you about Mg deficiencies and the use of D.lime.

Now I know the formula has generally been 2 tbs per gallon of soil. In the beginning (1/05) i used this formula. As time went on and I experienced the manny pitfalls often encountered by newbs I began to get better. But I check my pH regularly and have found that too much D.lime in my soil mix (kellogg's chicken shit organic soil at the Depot) kept my pH nailed to about 7 on the nose.

After reading that a soil pH of 6.4 or so for soil is best. So anyway I started to experiment with D.lime doses and to that end I started to lower the dosage to about one heaping teaspoon per gallon.

At this rate and using a pH of 6.2 or so on fluids I get a runoff of 6.7 +/- a 1oth of a point on runoff.

I do however see a Mg deficiency if I do not use Epson Salts at a 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of liquid.

I also know that my city water uses a sequestering agent int he water suplly that bonds with Mg and Calcium (the major constituants of hard water) and they precipitate out of solution. I am wondering if maybe this sequestering agent is still present and continuing to lock up Mg and Ca?

Anyway, there is a balance between the proper pH and Mg and Ca.

Your thoughts on too little D.lime in conjunction with water suplly that may be causing any deficiencies.

minds_I

PS: this thread certainly is phat with knowledge.....

Hey MI, How is it going?

I have been messing with the lime thing also but cannot seem to get away from the enormous benefits of the Ca and Mg supply.

I have had problems with the water supply where I live and ended up filtering the water to remove the Ca. and other micro nutrients. I believe the Ca in the water combined with the calcium carbonate in the lime is causing the Mg lock out. Have you noticed any thing else besides this? If the PH is stable as you say then this would be my first guess if there are no other noticeable problems.

Do you filter the water? If not try and see if that helps.

The soil you use could have a different type of lime also that is calcium carbonate dominant. Calcitic lime is calcium dominate. Only dolomite lime is more balanced. It might be a combination of these also.

It will take some experimenting to determine what the exact problem is.

Let us know what you decide to do.

V

 

[Guest]

With all the talk about the fungus among us, I thought I would post the question here - I am starting to dislike fungi as certain kinds like to invade my densest colas! But apparently, thrichoderma species 382 helps dissuade boytritus (sp) from eating dense nuggets. Any ideas how to specifically brew up species 382?

 

[Dignan]

Dig-Suby how is it going? I see everyone has the fungal bug.

I actually don't see myself brewing up fungal teas. I'm down with innoculating w/ myco products at transplant, but I'm too lazy to do much more than that. But I follow along w/ what others are doing just b/c I like to learn.

Now about the fungi specifics Dig is talking about. It is my take that if you use any substance (natural) that will naturally decompose it will provide rhizospheric specific fungi. After all it is a natural occurring product of the earth. Correct?

Maybe you can help me get this out of my head then by pointing out where my logic is faulty. ( I have a hunch it is. ) But when I read that ^^^ "After all it is a natural occurring product of the earth" I automatically think, "yeah, but cubensis mushrooms are a product of the Earth and so are morels, but they don't spontaneously appear on grains left to sit out, so why would the specific species of endo- and ecto-myc we're looking for spontaneously appear?"

It just seems like, if you don't innoculate with the specific fungi (listed on the products you buy for innoculating soil) you're looking to introduce, then it's more or less a hit-or-miss proposition.

Can you help me wrap my brain around that one?

It is Soil Food Web approved by Dr. Elaine Ingham herself. Which to me is better than the OMRI certification.

Word!

 

[ThaiPhoon]

I had kept some used coffee grounds in a plastic bag for a few weeks. When I looked in the other day (because of reading here and wanting to breed fungi) I saw that there was a white blue/green film all around the surface of the coffee. I broke up the coffee "pucks" onto soil in a compost bin, I then mixed a few handfulls of rice bran powder. The whole soil/coffee/rice bran concoction has sat overnight and this morning it had a bit of a patchy beard growing! I mixed the soil around the patches to keep it oxygenated. I will use this compost mix when repotting.

I have finally found some fulvic acid here as well! This thread has totally changed the way I grow! I love the organic challenge. I think I am doing alright. 99% of all my organic knowledge has come directly or indirectly from information in this thread and associated links!!

OFC = home of the organic gurus!

 

[cannigrow]

I just wanted to answer my own question about how synthetics might affect the microherd. I found this clarification in some reading. I've been doing lots of reading about various kinds of Rhizobium strains. You guys piqued my interest.

"Frequently we see statements in the lay literature about chemical fertilizers killing soil microbes or, worse yet, statements indicating these management inputs "sterilize" the soil. Statements such as these should be viewed with much skepticism! Remember that as we learned in FAQ #1, the soil can contain tons of microbes. Short of incineration its hard to imagine a stress in a soil that would lead to complete extermination of the microbial populations. It is true that some inputs, e.g., anhydrous ammonia, cause reductions in microbial numbers in the immediate vicinity of the application. After all, ammonia is a toxic gas. However, it quickly equilibrates with the soil solution in the form of ammonium ions and the toxicity subsides. Certain pesticides have been shown to cause similar transient reductions in selected microbial population. But remember, in some cases the microbes simply view these chemicals as food and degrade them fairly quickly.
Organic fertilizers circumvent the criticisms leveled at "synthetic" fertilizers but it should not be forgotten that plants take up nitrogen in the form of ammonium (NH4+) or nitrate (NO3-) ions regardless of whether it was mineralized from an organic source or applied as in inorganic fertilizer like ammonium nitrate. An advantage of using organics, where practical, is that nutrients are liberated slowly as the microbes mineralize the organic materials. Thus there is low risk for fertilizer burn on plants and less risk for environmental problems due to runoff and leaching. Another potentially negative effect of long-term use of ammonia-based fertilizers is soil acidification due to ammonia oxidation by the nitrifying bacteria. Soil pH can drop below 5.0 after prolonged use of ammonia-based fertilizers and this can cause marked reductions in populations of bacteria and actinomycetes and simultaneous increases in the relative abundance of fungi. Such changes might favor the development of certain fungal plant pathogens. On the other hand, the potato scab disease is reduced by the low pH because the actinomycete which causes it is eliminated. These changes are easily reversed with applications of lime to the soil. Thus we see qualitative changes in the soil populations due to some management inputs but this is a long way from "sterilizing" or "killing" the soil."

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Some folks out there use Epsom Salts for there Magnesium and Sulfer needs. Often they use the dosage of 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. Well thats all well and good but sometimes it takes the epsom salts some time to dissolve and measuring a teasppon accurately can be problematic.

So I do something else. I dissolve my epsom salts in water and use a syringe to meter dosage. In fact I use a syringe to measure all my liquid ferts and I use old pepsi bottles for measuring and making up fert solutions to give the girls.

math:

Epsom Salts solubility in water at 20C (68*F) 255g/l. You can not disolve anymore epsom salts in water at this temperature...it will remain solid after this concentration.


The density of Epsom Salys is 1.76 g/cc

The usual dosage is 1 teaspoon per gallon water ..... 1tsp/gal

To get the dosage of Epsom salts solution, I did the foloowing,

dosage = 1tsp/gal * (1cc/.20288tsp)* (1.76g/cc)*(1000cc/255g)* = 34.01 cc/ gal

Since I use metric units (pepsi bottles) I use approx 9cc/l of fluid given to the plants


To mix up a batch of Epsom Salts water solution use: (255g/l)*(3.7854l/gal)*(1cc/1.76g)*(0.004227cups/1cc) = 2.31 cups per gallon.

I hope this is helpful.

minds_I

 

[3BM]

Hey Dig:

Im no lab scientist, but I have cultivated fungus a few times. It seems to me the observation you make about Morels not popping out of the soil randomly is based on the nature of the Morel itself. Think of Morels (and other edible mushrooms) as the very top of the fungus food chain. Endo and Ecto Myc on the other hand are very small (as individual organisms), but occur in greater special diversity. I have always thought of it as comparing a tree to plankton. Healthy soil will contain myc, inoculants are really only a necessity when you begin with a sterile medium. Hence the reason Pro Mix puts myc in their products. Well thats my take on the issue, whether its grounded in good science I cant tell. Maybe others have more to say on the issue? Much love everyone, and many thanks to all the OFC contributors for making this place the soil/organic haven it has become.

On another subject, I just wanted to give special thanks to Von for his grow along. Despite some serious setbacks he is still giving us all a peep into his garden. With all the grow threads on IC, and the many masters at work around here its great to see someone from the soil/organic crew stepping up. Check out his thread if you havent already!

3bm

 

[Dignan]

Thanks for the feedback. That makes some sense for sure. And I completely agree about Vonforme's thread... he's an expert gardener, but more importantly a humble teacher and pupil. Kudos.

And this Organics Forum here at IC... how incredible! What was it, 12 months ago, maybe 18 months ago that this forum started up? I forget exactly, but it seems like yesterday, we started from scratch. Now look at it... one of the most comprehensive organic soil gardening forums online. Bravo to everyone who participates.

Dig

 

[vonforne]

Thanks for the feedback. That makes some sense for sure. And I completely agree about Vonforme's thread... he's an expert gardener, but more importantly a humble teacher and pupil. Kudos.

And this Organics Forum here at IC... how incredible! What was it, 12 months ago, maybe 18 months ago that this forum started up? I forget exactly, but it seems like yesterday, we started from scratch. Now look at it... one of the most comprehensive organic soil gardening forums online. Bravo to everyone who participates.

Dig

I started bitching that there were no stickys in the Organics section and everyone else has one. At that time we did not have an active moderator so Master Suby started the OFC. And the rest is black and white.

And we didn't have any grows going either so instead of bitching this time I started not one but two threads and I plan on starting more.

I just have to get the seed making out of the way and get some new starts going.

I have alot of clones cut and rooted and will run some things we have been talking about here.

Like the powdered dolomite lime vs. the pelleted dolomite lime. Matching soil mixes and nutrients but different versions of the same lime.

V

 

[Dignan]

The Organics Forum is relatively new though, right? Seems like it was opened in maybe Winter 2005-06 or so? It's a wonderful resource now, in such a short time.

I'm very interested in the Dolomite Lime Showdown 2007.

Dignan

 

[Stoney Bologna]

Hello All,

I'm trying to get my hands on the sunleaves guano line. Can any one reccommend an online retailer that sells the sunleaves brand of guanos that uses discete shipping methods?

Thanks

 

[vonforne]

http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=63
http://www.gardenallyear.com/
http://www.wormsway.com/
http://www.brackengardens.com/store/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=373

 

[Dignan]

Hello All,

I'm trying to get my hands on the sunleaves guano line. Can any one reccommend an online retailer that sells the sunleaves brand of guanos that uses discete shipping methods?

Thanks

I hail from the hometown of Worms Way and have always ordered 75% of my stuff from them. Fast, reliable and discreet and I've been happy with them for almost 15 years now.

Worms Way actually owns the Sunleaves company.

Dig