Organic Fanatic Collective

[ThaiPhoon]

Hi OFC

I worked on the project for a few hours last night...I have it down to 665 pages now..lol. Basically what I am doing is reading through the whole thing and taking out the chit chat and pics that aren't related specifically to organics. I am also trying to weed out duplicate information ie the quoted posts etc..The goal is to have the document contain information and techniques used to create a 100% organic growing environment. As far as separating the thread into specific topics, well I suppose in a future revision that could be done, but for now, I just want a concise organic manual! This thread covers just about everything. A real gold mine of organic knowledge!

Peace

my 100% organic Thai seedling...

 

[Relik]

Sounds great! Nice seedling too!

 

[Suby]

Buttcrack you where asking about humic acid ore so here is some info to answer your ?

What is humate?
Humate is a band of soft rock (humic shale ore) just below peat and millions of years before it would become lignite, then, coal. When plant and animal matter decomposes (humus) the end result is humic acids. Humate is the salts of humic acids. All soil contains some humus. Without humus and the humic acids it contains, plants cannot grow and survive.

What is humic shale ore?
Humic shale ore is an ancient plant deposit that was created 75 million years ago in the upper cretaceous period. The four prominent plant groups at that time include ferns, cycads, conifers, and angiosperms (flowering plants like magnolia, ficus, and sassafras). This band of earth was covered by volcanic eruptions millions of years ago, sealed and compressed into the band of RICH EARTHtm humate we have today.

What are humic acids?
Humic acids are a group of compounds created by the degradation of organic matter and are a portion of natures biological processes. Over time the deposited material has decomposed and reduced into humic, fulvic, and ulmic fractions.

Humic acids are becoming a significant biostimulant to mainstream agricultural and gardening practices because of the many benefits that it contributes to the soil. Currently a crop is removed from the field and no plant material is returned to the soil. The humification process is hindered if no material is added and as a result the soil has reduced levels of organic compounds that will transition into humic acid. This process creates soils low in organic matter that may lack sufficient levels of humic acids to maintain proper fertilizer retention. Adding humic acid to a compost or fertilizer program may help increase nutrient availability and retain the nutrients in the root zone.

The reason the claim N requirements are lowered is because of humic acids ability to chelate and thus increase the availability of certain soil nutrients, it does not however supply N but merely makes it easily available.

Suby

TP that seedling looks like Thai if I ever saw one, you growing those badgirls inside or out?

S

 

[Suby]

Buttcrack definately use the kelp meal and while your at it pick up liquid seaweed fertilizer, they are essential staples in my grow cupboard.

S

 

[Guest]

Thanks Suby so humic acid makes nutriants more readly avalibal
if thats the case ... then the plant should be taking up more nutriants when more humic is in the soil Dam! i feel like i'm at school every time i'm on this fourm

 

[Guest]

Hey there OFC here go's pic's of my past so called organic grows






The old mix




Hey.... my old veg table!




The new inoculant for my new mix bubbling away






I can't believe i use to put all this in the soil killing all the little beastys


well... hope you had fun looking at my half organic grow

 

[Deft]

Anyone have any info on using comfry? I did a search, maybe I spelled it wrong because I found only one thread with not much info.

I've got a good ammount of comfry in my back yard and know where I could collect many many bushels for free on public land so I want to make use of it!

 

[Dignan]

Comfrey has a bunch of nutrients (N, K, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium and I think silica, too) and also stimulates growth. You can make a tea by putting fresh cut leaves into a bucket like 3/4 full and then fill the bucket with water. Steep for 1-2 weeks, then filter and dilute 50/50 with water.

 

[vonforne]

Ah, its good to see Professor Subys school of organics back in session.

Thai, good to hear someone is working on compressing this information. I copy and paste all pages into a file when I get a chance. thanks for taking the time to do it. K+ man.

Deft- COMFREY

Buttcrack- nice name BTW. You would not by chance be a plumber?
Looks like you are getting a nice little set up going.

V

 

[Suby]

Nive pics Buttcrack, love that last one, I have shelves full of shit the hydrostore pushers sold me too .
I love that 5 gallon bucket with the spout on the bottom for drainage, I wish I had one of those.
That a great setup you have there, I've grown small scale all my life.
I've help setup and purchase and balance a whole room system on 2 occasions, I got paid for it too .
But now I'm a daddy and I can't risk it, there are too many great percs to being a dad lol.
As far as humic acids go there are contained also in the compost, peat, and worm castings if you used any so don't go nuts with your bottled product, follow the label.

Peace
S

Vman- Yup I have more time lately so schooling is on the menu. lol.

 

[jaykush]

hey heres some info on comfrey

Symphytum uplandicum
Common name: Comfrey Family: Boraginaceae
Author: Nyman. Botanical references:
Synonyms: Symphytum peregrinum (auct.)
Known Hazards: This plant contains small quantities of a toxic alkaloid which can have a cumulative effect upon the liver. Largest concentrations are found in the roots, leaves contain higher quantities of the alkaloid as they grow older and young leaves contain almost none. Most people would have to consume very large quantities of the plant in order to do any harm, though anyone with liver problems should obviously be more cautious. In general, the health-promoting properties of the plant probably far outweigh any possible disbenefits, especially if only the younger leaves are used.
Range: A hybrid of garden origin, S. asperum x S. officinale[200].
Habitat: Not known in a truly wild situation.
Plants For A Future Rating (1-5): 4

Other Possible Synonyms: From various places across the web, may not be correct. See below.
S. officinale x S. asperum[H] S. peregrinum auct. non[P] S. x uplandicum[B,G,H,P]
Other Common Names: From various places around the Web, may not be correct. See below.
Comfrey [H], Russian Comfrey [H], Upland Comfrey [P],
Physical Characteristics

Perennial growing to 1.2m by 0.6m at a fast rate. It is hardy to zone 5 and is not frost tender. It is in flower from May to June. The flowers are hermaphrodite (have both male and female organs) and are pollinated by Bees. We rate it 4 out of 5 for usefulness.

The plant prefers light (sandy), medium (loamy) and heavy (clay) soils and can grow in heavy clay soil. The plant prefers acid, neutral and basic (alkaline) soils. It can grow in semi-shade (light woodland) or no shade. It requires moist soil.
Habitats and Possible Locations
Woodland, Cultivated Beds, Sunny Edge, Dappled Shade, Shady Edge, Ground Cover.

Cultivar 'Bocking 14': Woodland, Cultivated Beds, Sunny Edge, Dappled Shade, Shady Edge, Ground Cover.
Edible Uses
Leaves; Tea.

Young leaves - cooked or raw[2, 4, 5, 9, 46, 61]. The leaf is hairy and the texture is mucilaginous. It may be full of minerals but it is not pleasant eating for most tastes. It can be chopped up finely and added to salads, in this way the hairiness is not so obvious[183].

Young shoots can be used as an asparagus substitute[46]. The blanched stalks are used[183].

Older leaves can be dried and used as a tea[26].

The peeled roots are cut up and added to soups[183].

A tea is made from the dried leaves and roots[183].

The roasted roots are used with dandelion and chicory roots for making coffee[183].
Medicinal Uses
Disclaimer

Anodyne; Astringent; Demulcent; Emollient; Expectorant; Haemostatic; Refrigerant; Vulnerary.

Comfrey is a commonly used herbal medicine with a long and proven history in the treatment of various complaints. The root and the leaves are used, the root being more active, and they can be taken internally or used externally as a poultice[4, 222]. Comfrey is especially useful in the external treatment of cuts, bruises, sprains, sores, eczema, varicose veins, broken bones etc, internally it is used in the treatment of a wide range of pulmonary complaints, internal bleeding etc[4, 238, K]. The plant contains a substance called 'allantoin', a cell proliferant that speeds up the healing process[4, 21, 26, 165, 222, 238]. This substance is now synthesized in the pharmaceutical industry and used in healing creams[238]. The root and leaves are anodyne, astringent (mild), demulcent, emollient, expectorant, haemostatic, refrigerant, vulnerary[4, 21, 26, 165, 222]. Some caution is advised, however, especially in the internal use of the herb. External applications and internally taken teas or tinctures of the leaves are considered to be completely safe, but internal applications of tablets or capsules are felt to have too many drawbacks for safe usage[238]. See also the notes above on toxicity. The leaves are harvested in early summer before the plant flowers, the roots are harvested in the autumn. Both are dried for later use[238].

A homeopathic remedy is made from the fresh root, harvested before the plant flowers[232]. This has a very limited range of application, but is of great benefit in the treatment of broken bones and eye injuries[232].
Other Uses
Biomass; Compost; Ground cover; Gum.

The plant grows very quickly, producing a lot of bulk. It is tolerant of being cut several times a year and can be used to provide 'instant compost' for crops such as potatoes. Simply layer the wilted leaves at the bottom of the potato trench or apply them as a mulch in no-dig gardens. A liquid feed can be obtained by soaking the leaves in a small amount of water for a week, excellent for potassium demanding crops such as tomatoes. The leaves are also a very valuable addition to the compost heap[26, 200].

A gum obtained from the roots was at one time used in the treatment of wool before it was spun[100].

Plants can be grown as a ground cover when planted about 1.2 metres apart each way[208].
Cultivation details
Tolerates most soils and situations but prefers a moist soil and some shade[1, 4]. Grows well in heavy clay soils. Best grown in an open sunny site in a deep rich soil if it is being grown for compost material[200].

Hardy to about -20°c[187].

A naturally occurring hybrid species (S. asperum x S. officinale), it does not set viable seed and so is not aggressive. The root system is very deep, fragments of root left in the soil can produce new plants. A number of named forms have been selected for their higher production of leaves[183].

Subject to attacks by the rust fungus, this can be alleviated by giving the plants a high potash feed, wood ashes are often used[26].
Propagation
Seed - sow spring or autumn in a cold frame. When they are large enough to handle, prick the seedlings out into individual pots and grow them on in the greenhouse for their first winter. Plant them out into their permanent positions in late spring or early summer, after the last expected frosts. This is a hybrid species that does not usually produce seed.

If you have sufficient seed you can try an outdoor sowing in situ in the spring.

Division succeeds at almost any time of the year. Simply use a spade to chop off the top 7cm of root just below the soil level. The original root will regrow and you will have a number of root tops, each of which will make a new plant. These can either be potted up or planted out straight into their permanent positions.
Cultivars

'Bocking 4'
The leaves are broad, round tipped and very large, the plant recovering rapidly after cutting[183]. The leaves are recommended for use as a liiquidized green drink[183].
'Bocking 14' 'Websters'
A very productive plant for green manure etc, but the leaves are considered too bitter for green drinks[183].

i like to use comfrey in teas. its a awesome plant and is an amazing plant in hugelkultur. the roots have these spines/pokeys that breat down even the hard materials such as hardwoods and anything else that is a bit "tuff". comfrey is great for you to eat as well and will make you hella healthy. has beautiful flowers through a few months a year. cant beat this plant id love to have a patch growing here, ive been meaning to buy a comfrey root ball to get it going.

buttcrack i love the nozzle on the bucket. i hate spilling tea on my and when i added one of those to my buckets i dont even think i can go back. glad to see all the old chemmy stuff sitting around and all these new teas brewing.

thaiman! thats a great idea. must be a hell of a lot of info!

 

[Guest]

Hey guys, yo Suby u got that right about being a dad it does have it's percs i got 2 of them myself. The bucket i got from a brewing company back when i use to mix and make my own beer using my yeast's, hop's and such my first idea was to make beer to try to some how capture the co2 when the beer starts to ferment but i started to get way to into it. thats a whole new hobby in it's self mixing and matching different types of yeast with different malts, hop's and such.

Jaykush, very nice read and info, every time i go to this thread i learn sumthing new Rideon'!

Yo' Vonforne how did you ever guess That dam name stuck with me for a long time. I think they market extra long shirts just for plumbers.

 

[Guest]

quik Q is there a differiants between using the dowder dolimite lime and the granular kind?

 

[vonforne]

quik Q is there a differiants between using the dowder dolimite lime and the granular kind?

yes there is.

the powdered type is what you want to use. first it will spread out into the soil more evenly and second it will begin to decompose faster.

the pellet form will cause hot spots and will not cover as evenly.

If you have the pellet form just run it through a coffee grinder or an old blender to make it powder.

I do this with the Espoma garden Lime and it works great.

I picked up a great blender for this purpose at a garage sale for 5.00.

V

 

[Dignan]

I'm not sold on the idea that powdered dolomite lime is better than prilled/pelletized. I know too many people who grow organically and always use prilled with stellar results. Without having a laboratory to test the theories, I have to go on the gardens I see others growing and I see people who know organics inside and out using both powdered and prilled.

It's usually just a matter of what is immediately available at your local store, but I know an organics guy who swears by prilled dolo over powdered. His logic: bacteria prefer a slightly lower pH than fungi (6.0-ish compared to 7.0-ish). Not having the entire root mass all at the same pH allows for various "pockets" of many types of bacteria and fungi, each of which will congregate in the pockets/zones where they are most comfortable.

I can't vouch for that theory, but I do tend to believe that perfect results can be had with either powdered dolomite lime or prilled.

 

[vonforne]

I'm not sold on the idea that powdered dolomite lime is better than prilled/pelletized. I know too many people who grow organically and always use prilled with stellar results. Without having a laboratory to test the theories, I have to go on the gardens I see others growing and I see people who know organics inside and out using both powdered and prilled.

It's usually just a matter of what is immediately available at your local store, but I know an organics guy who swears by prilled dolo over powdered. His logic: bacteria prefer a slightly lower pH than fungi (6.0-ish compared to 7.0-ish). Not having the entire root mass all at the same pH allows for various "pockets" of many types of bacteria and fungi, each of which will congregate in the pockets/zones where they are most comfortable.

I can't vouch for that theory, but I do tend to believe that perfect results can be had with either powdered dolomite lime or prilled.

Thats a good theory worthy of a test. I might have to do that. I have both at the moment. I will be trying some different things soon side by side and it might be one of them.

thanks for that Dignan.

V

 

[Dignan]

That would be great to see you do, V. Nobody better to do it, as you are quite skilled at documenting and explaining things here.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Guest]

Thanks guys, yeah... can't wait to see that posted

 

[Dignan]

Here's a nice little blurb about organic vs. synthetic fertilizers and growing methods, from malcolmbeck.com:

Fertilizer: Organic (Natural) versus Chemical (Inorganic)

The argument continues. The organic proponents say only organic should be used. The chemical proponents have their argument of high analysis and quicker availability.

Why don't we consult Nature and see how she has been feeding plants life since the very beginning?

Most of the fertilizers called "chemical" occur naturally in Nature. In fact, that is where man discovered them. Ammonia, ammonium, ammonium sulphate, nitrites, nitrates, potassium sulphate, calcium phosphate, urea are some of them. But seldom are these chemicals found in the pure state. In Nature, they are almost always bound up in rock or in an organic form with other elements. Or they may be found in a state of transition.

Man-made chemical fertilizers always have a high total NPK, from 20 to 60 percent or more. The total NPK for organic fertilizer blends will always be low. Fourteen percent is about as high as it gets.

The balance of the ingredients in the chemical fertilizer bag, aside from the NPK, is usually made up of inert filler or possibly a chemical that isn't needed. The balance of the ingredients in the organic fertilizer bag beyond the NPK are all necessary soil nutrients. The fact that the material is organic means it came from a once-living entity-plant, animal or a blend of both-which tells us that every ingredient there is important to life. In the best organic fertilizers, everything in the bag is needed and is in correct proportions to feed and sustain the next generation of life.

Many chemical fertilizer formulas that contain major, minor and trace elements are labeled "Complete." That is really a false statement. It takes much more than a few chemicals to maintain the healthy soil and grow healthy plants. For example, there is very little, if any, carbon in a bag of chemical fertilizer. When a plant or animal body is analyzed, one of the most abundant elements in it is carbon, in the form of energy, mainly carbohydrates.

In order for a plant to be properly fed, whether with chemical or natural fertilizer, the microbial life in the soil must first process the fertilizer into a substance and release it in the correct amounts that are perfect for a plant to absorb. In order for the microbes to perform this service, they must have energy. They are not in the presence of sunlight, nor do they have chlorophyll like higher plants, so the microbes must get their energy from decaying plant or animal matter in the soil.

A bag of organic fertilizer has all the carbon/energy to meet the needs of the soil microbes. A bag of chemical fertilizer has no energy. If organic matter is not already present in the soil, the chemicals can quickly become stressful, even toxic, to the plants. This causes plants to be susceptible to disease and insect problems.



Organic fertilizers are believed to be slower acting than the chemical fertilizers. This is true to a degree. Being a lower NPK analysis and slower acting, organic fertilizers can be used in higher volume around plants without danger of burning. However, there are some organic fertilizers that are fast acting, such as bat guano or fish meal, that can show results as quickly as the chemical fertilizers do. They are still slower to burn the plants than the chemicals and last much longer in the soil.

Unless chemical fertilizers are impregnated or coated with a microbe inhibitor and some substance to keep them from quickly dissolving, they must be used very cautiously. Especially in sandy soils, they can burn the roots of the plants and quickly leach beyond the reach of the roots. They generally end up polluting a water supply because they are too quickly dissolved and moved out of the soil. In heavy clay soils or any soil with a high organic and humus content, this is less of a problem.

Chemical fertilizers that are blended to perfectly fit a given soil and then used in the correct season and correct amounts can do nothing more than grow a plant. They do not build or sustain a healthy soil. Organic fertilizers contain the energy and the many other things that continually build soil fertility, crumb structure, increased water holding capacity, food for all the beneficial soil life, condition the soil and contribute to the hundreds of other yet-unknown things that cause a plant to grow healthy and perfect.

Only healthy and perfectly grown plants can feed and support healthy and perfect animal and human life.

 

[Guest]

I've been trying desperately to simplify, simplify, simplify - without sacrificing results; here's the newest mix I've come up with.

Dirt:
50% Coco Fiber
50% Perlite
1 tblsp per gallon, Fox Farm Fruit and Flower Dry Formula

Water:
2 tblsp per gallon PBP Bloom for Soil
1 tblsp per gallon Molasses
1 tblsp per gallon Hydroguard
1 tblsp per gallon Sensizym
PH to 5.7-5.8, the runoff is about 6.0

I also add a bloom booster during the middle part of flower - not organic so I won't go into details, but my results are getting better every day!!! Depending on how much you water you could use more coco fiber and less perlite. So far this mix works well for me.