Organic Fanatic Collective

[vonforne]

Now this is what I like to see. Someone has been studying up. I did the same thing in my off time from growing. As I said to B1 I have been working on some things. As soon as I get by the seed/sexing of the kids, I will begin to experiment with specific things to see the out come on the plants well being.

I have used Yucca and am currently using it. I would like to add others also but only use one at a time now. Then two at a time and so on......

I was working on a homade LK last year but was interrupted when my grow was compromised. It took me months to recover from that stress but now I'm back in action.

Are you using any of these now? If so which ones?

V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

pumpkin: I am not using sugar cane. It is a compost made from left over sugar canes..? It is a very fine, dark brown powder.

vonforne: no more powerheads...hmmm. I must say that I used to use a regular airstone...and now with the powerhead there is much more foam. Can you give me an idea of what type of air pump and number of airstones you use. I had a small single outlet pump running an airstone roughly golfball sized. I like the agitator effect the powerhead gives as well. I do not use a sock/teabag...but I could if you reckon its better.

I had my hand in the tea and it was very warm. I put a few ice cubes in and lost a lot of foam....probably a bad idea...I won't do that again!

 

[vonforne]

I just use a simple two outlet air pump from Walmart. The air stone I use is a medium air bubbling stone. About 12 inches in length. Keeping it simple like that I find that the results improved. the same as the ingredients. I like to keep the temps around 75* to 80*
I have gotten the best results there. the PH I use is 6.0. I am using city de-chlorinated water.

V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Fantastic info pumpkin. I have read something similar to that somewhere....

V thanks. I may go buy a dual outlet pump. I could do without cleaning out the powerhead everyday. Like you said keep it simple. I do get carried away trying new things.

I think I have the materials needed to cover all the basics now. We shall see how the Thai strains like the 100% organics!

 

[pumpkin2006]

Are you using any of these now? If so which ones?

V

To be honest, I'm more in theory stage right now. I do use the common things like liquid kelp, LK (of course), EWC (humic acid), molasses. I want to start being able to make "brands" of tea that are more fungal or more bacterial for different purposes; that is the main focus of my tea making. Mycorrhizae aren't the only thing we should be after, we should be looking into various other cultures of bacteria that will serve different purposes and create a biodiverse food web.

With all that being said, heres a little more sweet sweet knowledge that we can't get enough of:

HAY FOR OBTAINING PROTOZOA
You can obtain your own protozoa by taking a five gallon bucket and filling it with water. If you are using chlorinated tap water, allow the water to sit for an hour or agitate it to release the chlorine. Add a handful or two of ORGANIC unsprayed straw or hay??? OR JUST HAY? and aerate it. Length of time and temperature unclear to me – Paul Wagner of SFI said to soak for 3 days; others say 24-48 hours, but temperature could be a key consideration.

FEEDBACK: I believe protozoa reproduce slowly and are not going to increase in a typical brew cycle. We may just be stripping them out of hay or bark rather than growing them. Can somebody confirm the rate of reproduction in water?

QUESTION: What happens if you let hay in a bucket sit longer than a couple of days? Mine smelled a little less grasslike at first, and then the grasslike smell started to fade. It didn’t smell bad, but I did wonder if alcohol could be starting to form.
Could too-long processing lead to fermentation taking place, making alcohol and kill the protozoa, damage soil on which it’s poured?

There is also a protozoan inoculum available from [email protected] for folks who don't want the trouble of making the hay infusion.

Yes, in the soil, it takes two weeks at 72 F for the protozoa to get going and wake up to the fact you have improved the bacteria population, which some of the protozoa – predators that they are -- like to eat.

So, adding the inoculum can be important to get the nutrient cycling going right away. [Bacteria take up the nitrate form of nitrogen, which get released as the ammonium form of nitrogen when the protozoa eat the bacteria)

Tom J is correct on the worm compost - all good worm composts contain GREAT numbers of protozoa, easily extracted into tea when using an actively aerated CT machine.

Do not expect any good protozoa when using either Soil Soup or Growing Solutions systems. Only if the GSI system is improved the way Hendrikus Schraven has shown is possible can you get passable protozoa extracted.

Otherwise, the EPM, KIS, AG, Sottilo, Earthwise, WormGold, Bob Norsen, Hronek brewers (all the ones that stay aerobic during brewing), extract protozoa from the compost, and allow them to survive, just fine in the tea. As long as you have good protozoa numbers in the compost.

Comment to poster:
If you have access to a microscope, you may very well want to take a look at your non-compost tea. You very well may have protozoa growing in it and it may make a great protozoa stew! Some of the protozoa you can just barely see with the naked eye if you don't have a microscope. I would love to know what you find if you do!

Jeff Lowenfels said:
For those not familiar with the topic, it is possible to grow protozoa and release them either in teas or after teas have been applied. I liken the bacteria and fungi as "fertilizer bags" and the protozoa and nematodes as the "fertilizer spreaders." Doc E (and correct me if I am wrong!) has mentioned that it takes two or three weeks before the protozoa in the soil wake up to the fact that there is an increased food supply (namely, the bacteria). Adding protozoa should speed up this response time, I believe.


TESTING YOUR HAY's SAFETY

Thomas Giannou wrote (5/13/2003):

You bring up a good point about clopyralid. It's frequently okay for farmers to use clopyralid on their hay to control weeds, but when they bale the hay who knows where the bales end up? A local garden store perhaps? And then a CTer buys a bale or a gardener uses the hay for mulch in their garden and one can kiss those broad leaf garden plants goodbye! Where clopyralid is used, there's frequently rules for who can apply the product and there should be rules for what can be done with the hay treated with the product. But I sometimes wonder how good those rules are when hay passes through different parties' hands? How can we protect our selves from clopyralid? Is there a simple (meaning inexpensive test) that can be done?

Matt Ryan Replied 5/13/2003:

A germination test with garden cress (Lepidium sativum L.) or lettuce (Lactuca sativa) is recommended to test for the absence of residues of toxic breakdown products. The cress test is a qualitative assay with high sensitivity. (end of post)

IDEA: Clearly, this assay identifies clopyralid in the soil, not in the hay you are about to use to grow protozoa. However, maybe it would work to soak the hay in water, water the growing medium for the garden cress with only this water, and try the test that way.

From: "Scott Alexander" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Compostteas] fungi??????
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:19:50 +1000

> First, what has worked to increase fungi in your teas?

Jeff - I will be producing a new batch next week and i'll be scratching around in the litter in the forest beside me for fungal threads, plus I'll be collecting up a bag of old wood chips that has some threads in it and springtails (I scored a 18.8 Total fungi when I used it last time), plus I now have liquid aloe vera and some saponin powder to add to this brew plus my bio-dynamic contacts sent me this info. "yes you can make a tea of casuarina instead of equisetum. It's very good for developing big fat fungal hyphae in the soil! or compost!" So I boiled up some casuarina leaves (it's a she oak) to extract the silica but I have no idea if this will help increase the fungi count. As usual, I'll have a bag of compost and I'll add humic acid, molasses, fish and kelp and have the CT tested after 24 hours and then after 48 hours. Fingers crossed for a Total Fungi count of 30 and Total bacteria of 1000

Scott
FOLLOWUP: Note sent to Scott re: products he’s using and experience with fungi count and casuarina. No reply received as of 12/19/03.

MUSHROOM COMPOST:
Matt Ryan 9/27/02 said: I would be careful with using mushroom compost. I always heard that mushroom compost , unless from organic source, contains a lot of fungicides and bad stuff (could just be hearsay).
FEEDBACK: Anyone who has researched this subject, your input would be very welcome.

YEAST

[NOTE: Yeasts growing anaerobically produce alcohol (which is why they get used in making beer), and it takes very little alcohol to be quite toxic to the microorganisms you are trying to grow.]

Elaine Ingham, post dated Tue, 10 Sep 2002 :
Yeast are certain kinds of fungi that are often facultative anaerobes, which means they grow aerobically when there is enough oxygen, but grow anaerobically when oxygen starts to get too low.
I am a bit leery of adding something specially to my tea, or compost, that will make alcohol when anaerobic conditions occur.

Maybe not entirely reasonable, because there are many other bacteria that have the same ability. But I don't add them to my compost or tea either.

BARK

QUESTION: On page 59 of Compost Tea Brewing Manual, 3rd Edition, there is a reference to using bark compost in a brewing solution. Is there any particular type of bark to use or to avoid?

Elaine Ingham replies: Use bark that has aged. And use a mix of barks, not just one type.



DRY INGREDIENTS - PAY ATTENTION TO PARTICLE SIZE
Jose Luiz Garcia said:
Depending on the type of the machine you have one has to pay close attention to the size of the particle. Please remember that fungi and bacteria will have only 24 hours of fun inside the brewer. The smaller the size of the ingredient particle, the faster its utilization. (NOTE: This comment does not include compost.)

CHITIN, CHITINASE, CRAB SHELLS

Anne.Donahue posted on 10/15/2003:

I attended the Vermico conference in Portland this past weekend (great conference by the way) and gleaned that finely ground crab/lobster shells fed to a vermicomposting system or added to as a tea nutrient selects for organisms (bacteria?) that break chitin down.

The reason why (I think) this is important is that these organisms are then used to control insects that have chitin in their bodies (exoskeleton?), and fungal pathogens that also contain chitin.

I may or may not have the correct information here, and was hoping this might stimulate discussion about using fine ground crab shells as a nutrient in our teas, or the use of crab shell fed vermicompost in our teas.

I'm also trying to locate a source of fine ground crab shells.

I would appreciate any thoughts any of you might have on this.

Anne Donahue

Post from Elaine Ingham:

Typically it is both bacterial and fungal species that make chitinase. There are different components in the chitin molecules in crustaceans versus fungi at times, so the exact enzyme can be different.

I actually think it is probably more likely that the chitin feeds a community of bacteria and fungi that are exceptional at chewing on pests. We don't have good data for the mechanism of whether it is chitinase production that selects against the pests, or just that chitin is a food that selects for the organisms that compete well with the pests.

But nonetheless, adding chitin to worm composts to improve these organisms is patented. Ah, adding chitin to your bin for your own production is not limited by the patent, but selling such a compost with the claim that the compost is better because of the chitin addition would be infringing the patent, I believe. (end of post)

Jeff Young responded:
Anne,

Let me know how much crab shell you are looking for. I assume it is a small amount (less than 10 lbs). I can mill it to whatever size you want. If you only need a small amount, I would be happy to give it to you (just pick up the freight).

We produce chitin and chitosan here, though not every day.

I am glad to see you bring this subject up. There are companies out there trying to pass off crab shell as chitin, or they tout the benefits of chitin or chitosan as though that is what their product is.

People need to understand that crab shells (or anything that contains chitin) need to have the chitin and chitosan extracted from them. The best method for doing this in agriculture, as I understand it, is through vermi-composting.

We use a chemical process here, but we are trying to find a way to do it enzymatically.

I am sure that Elaine will have a lot to say on this subject as we have discussed it at length.

I would love to see some SFI testing in this area. I would be happy to supply the raw materials for this.

Squid quills are a source of pure chitin that occurs naturally in nature. I would like to see how squid quills (which we also have) would compare to crab shell in vermicompost.

Crab shell is generally considered the best source of chitin/chitosan because it gives you the highest yield of chitin.


On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Elaine Ingham said:
Yes, Jeff is right. Grinding up shells isn't the same as having an extracted pure product. Microbes work on surfaces, and if most of the food resource is still in chunk form, the microbes can't get to it.



Same with chitin. Chunks of shell don't help much in a tea. Just not enough time for use to happen. If you ground up the material, then more surface area for the critters to chew on. But still, 24 hours? Not likely a benefit in the tea - but yes, benefit in the soil.

Adding chunky foods to the tea and getting it spread on the soil works - the orgnaisms will use the food in the soil and give long term benefits.

If you want to have effects in the tea, you need to use extracted, higher percentage chitin containing materials. Or humic acid materials (see above discussion).

Having the pure stuff means the chitin-using critters that seem to have highly competitive actions, and chew up insect larvae in the soil, will grow in the tea.

 

[vonforne]

Seaweed Extract Making

Seaweed Extract Making

Here you go everyone. I will begin doing some seaweed extract making from scratch soon.

Can you identify these species of seaweed?













I also have unlimited access to oyster shells. Here is a picture





V

 

[Relik]

Hey V! Never seen seaweeds like that over here, but I guess variety is the key to a balanced and diversified end product, isn't it?

How do you plan to make your seaweed extract? Homemade cold-pressed? Sounds great to me, please keep us posted (and I know you will :wink.

Cheers people!

 

[vonforne]

I'm tryi8ng to identify it my self. We have some many seaweeds here. Actually they are killing off our reefs. We have a brown Brazilian seaweed doing that.

This one is rubbery to the touch. comes in green, red and white. the brazilian one is a lot farther away to get but if I have to I will go. I washes up every night at high tide.

I'am going to ferment it. You get more of a refined product.....at least that is what I have read lately.

So if some one can identify this one, chime in please.

V

 

[vonforne]

Banana-Squash-Papaya (BSP) Fermented Extract

One of the major fermented extract we use for plant flowering and fruiting, specially for vegetables, are extracts from banana, squash and papaya. Apparently, these materials have high level of potassium especially banana, and beta carotene. Although I have not tried a similar recipe using materials readily available here in the US, I will presume that materials substitute can be used. For your own experimentation, you can possibly use comfrey, squash and carrot. Le me know if they will work. In the Philippines, when we induce flowering of mangoes, conventional agriculture use potassium nitrate. We have tried with success natural materials high in nitrogen and potassium. Interesting enough, our local organic farmers have experimented using seaweed extract in inducing flowering of mangoes. Isn’t it seaweed extract have lots of natural growth hormones and trace elements, and good source of nitrogen and potassium? Check out the kinds of materials you can ferment and use to induce growth, flowering and fruiting.

I will be starting this one too. I can get all these at the produce stand...fresh.

V

 

[pumpkin2006]

Hey V

Don't want to rain on the seaweed parade, but what makes Ascophyllum nodosum seaweed so great is, well 1) the nutrients, but more importantly to me is 2) Cytokinin plant hormone. Most plant hormones have to be extracted and are therefor no long organic, however the Ascophyllum nodosum (Norwegian kelp) has this hormone in a readily available form. Maybe the types of seaweed you have will have some other hormones. Fair warning though: Humbolts own Bushmaster contains anti-gebberlians (hormones that stop vertical growth) that is made out of seaweed. Who knows what you'll find, but do some test runs with it.

 

[vonforne]

Species of Ascophyllum, Ecklonia and Fucus are the common ones.

Ecklonia maxima that is washed up on the beaches of the west coast of Africa and Namibia.

Generally drift seaweed or beach-washed seaweed is collected, although in Scotland farmers sometimes cut Ascophyllum exposed at low tide.

Maerl is a fertilizer derived from red seaweeds that grow with a crust of calcium carbonate on the outside, the calcareous red algae, Phymatolithon calcareum and Lithothamnion corallioides. They grow at depths of 1-7 m and are found mainly on the coast of France near the mouths of rivers and calm bays, where the water temperature must be 13°C or higher.

For example in a more tropical climate like the Philippines, large quantities of Sargassum have been collected, used wet locally, but also sun dried and transported to other areas. In Puerto Madryn (Argentina), large quantities of green seaweeds are cast ashore every summer and interfere with recreational uses of beaches. Part of this algal mass has been composted and then used in trials for growing tomato plants in various types of soil. In all cases, the addition of the compost increased water holding capacity and plant growth, so composting simultaneously solved environmental pollution problems and produced a useful organic fertilizer.

Norway isn't the only place for useful seaweeds. there are some examples of warmer climate seaweeds I will be looking for to use.

V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

hey V,

How do you actually make the fermented extract of banana squash papaya? wouldn't fermenting the fruits make alcohol..? Do you just compost all three of them together and make a tea from that? I have read that before, but I am not sure on the procedure for making the "extracts"
It would be great to know, as all of the above are grown locally!

 

[pumpkin2006]

Thank you sir, I have not collected my own. I am on the coast, west coast USA, so hopefully I can ID some of our stuff and make some yumminess.

 

[vonforne]

Here in Fl. there is a scientist that is doing studies on seaweed. I was at his web link but I didn't book mark it. I have an older link on seaweeds.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4765e/y4765e00.HTM

9.1 is of interest. but I have to read the whole thing.

v

 

[vonforne]

Hey Thai, I'm looking at that now. It is done in the Philippines that is close to you.

http://www.herbanafarms.com/Herbana2/Products.htm

My seaweed is an algae, I think. damn have to go farther down now. Anyone know what that is? I'll have to start over.

Pumpkin, I thought you would know. Jaykush how about you?

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Hey V, I found this...I hope that this is new...I mean I remember reading it somewhere sometime before now...I just hope it wasn't in this thread..

Bionutrients

In the creation of biological nutrients, bionutrients, the basic process is the traditional fermentation. Fermentation process is a better system than simple extraction like boiling the plant materials, through infusion like making tea. In the United States, where compost tea is getting popular in organic agriculture, compost is made into tea, sugar or molasses are added, fermented to increase microbial population. A simple general formula or recipe in fermentation can be done for plants. For example, seaweeds. If you simply infuse seaweeds (which are quite difficult to breakdown, therefore hard to extract active ingredients), you may not get a more potent extracted active ingredients. If you ferment the same materials by adding sugar or molasses, it is easily broken down (biologically) by microorganisms and thus making nutrient more available. Microorganisms get their energy from sugar in fermenting the materials. Most healthy foods are fermented foods. Through fermentation, food are easily broken down, enzymes created, nutrition improved. That’s the reason why fermented foods like yogurt or kimchi (Korean pickles) are more nutritious than plain milk or vegetables.

In making bionutrients, the simple formula is to add 1/3 crude sugar or molasses and mixed with materials to be fermented and extracted. For example, let’s take papaya fruit fermented extract. We chop as thinly as possible ripe papaya, unwashed and unpeeled. We then add 1/3 crude sugar or molasses to the total weight or approximate volume of the papaya materials. Put the materials with at least 50-75% air gap and cover loosely with a lid and let it ferment for at least a week. After a week, you will notice some molds and microbial infections and will start smelling sweet, sour and alcoholic. The materials are then strained and liquid generated will be your pure fruit papaya extract. You can dilute this with 20 parts water. This diluted form can be used as bionutrient, using 2-4 tablespoons per gallon of water. Again, this extract can be added to animal drinking water and feeds, to compost pile or sprayed/watered to plants leaves and roots. This will be a good source of nutrient for plants or animals, and also for our beneficial indigenous microorganisms. Papaya extract is good source of enzyme pappain, beta-carotene and Vitamin C for example. So extract any plant material and just try to find out what kind of nutrients they have you can use for animal and plant nutrition. Should the materials you intend to use for extraction do not have much moisture (as compared to our papaya fruit example), you may add water enough to the level that will moisten all the materials.

Edit: As soon as I got home from work this afternoon, I took a handful of that seaweed and used the above method...Did the same with a mango..I will get the other fruits going later...

 

[pumpkin2006]

Pumpkin, I thought you would know.

Sorry a little confused, are you asking what kind of seaweed yours is?

 

[vonforne]

Nice find Thai, Let me know how it turns out. I will pick up my fruit for extraction the week sometime. Keep us posted on your progress. I still have to contact the University here to find out what kinds of seaweeds are under research here. Actually we have a couple due to the oceans being on both sides.


Pumpkin

Sorry a little confused, are you asking what kind of seaweed yours is?

Yes I was. You seem to have an extensive knowledge of these kinds of things. I didn't mean to offend by posting the seaweed thing like that, its just that I have been reading up on it a lot and have found that they are doing more research lately on the different kinds of seaweeds there are. Many are used for foods for us and some for animals. I just thought I would put the scientific names there and see if anyone would know them. I would like to become self sufficient as far as nutrients go in the near future. I do like to garden so that is a gimme. but also I would like to ferment my own seaweeds since the plants do so well with them.

Anyway I thought you would know some more on the weeds.

V

 

[pumpkin2006]

I don't know much about them, but I can in less then a day. Gimmi 24 hours and I'll probably be able to give you all the types of seaweed good for plants and hopefully their NPK's at least. Hopefully I'll be able to ID them as well.

 

[pumpkin2006]

First off, I hope you have a PC instead of a Mac. Seaweed Machine.

Ok kelps belong to the Eukaryota Domain, and on this website there are 23,533 species. This is gonna be kinda hard. That seaweed program kinda sucks, but might lead you somewhere. I'm gonna try and browse the Algaebase website that I just linked and maybe match them, but the best bet is you having the seaweed in your hand to match them.