Organic Fanatic Collective

[Dignan]

Question:

E. Ingham always recommends that you brew your compost tea with compost and molasses and then to add kelp extract right before application (rather than brewing with the kelp extract added).

I'm sure she has good reason... does anyone know what the reasoning is?

 

[Scay Beez]

I've been dying to go to those SFI classes for the last three years. Now that I'm on the west coast one day it will be a reality.

Dignan - E. Ingham always recommends that you brew your compost tea with compost and molasses and then to add kelp extract right before application (rather than brewing with the kelp extract added).

I think you might be mistaken. I thought that she added yucca after the brew cycle is done. All the books I've read add seaweed from the beginning because it is a good surface for fungi to attach themselves to. Adding things after a brew cycle is to ensure that there is enough food for microorganisms in the soil. I always add yucca after the brew or it can make things go anaerobic will all the foam (foam is good and bad).

Smurf: every now and then I give the tubs a good clean out. But I have also had to rethink the way I’ve been making teas, fine tuning it so to speak with an emphasis on the critical elements and process.

It is important to clean out your containers after every brew if you want to get real critical about brewing. You could be creating a bad microorganism innoculm on the surfaces that don't get clean and become anaerobic. Giving the bad guys a jump start.

flinstoners: the one thing not to do is use straight tap water. . .the chlorine kills. . .therefore we allow tap water to sit for 24 or more hours first. . . you can get active microbials from a hardware store that sells septic additives.

It is best to get a water analysis sheet from your water company when moving into a new area. I had MAJOR problems when I moved brewing compost tea, but now I know a few things because of them. Some cities use chloramine instead of chlorine. Especially locals that have to pump water long distances or up mountains. Chloramine = chlorine + ammonia and it is a liquid that does not evaporate out (I tried pre-bubbling for a week). There are fish tank additives that are supposed to tie them up but I have yet to try them. I am pretty much forced to use RO water.

vonforne:JK, I have been looking at the cane sugar....we have it in the grocery store here. In the raw form. It is produced where I live. Still on the stock.

I have read that bacteria are real easy to multiply and don't need much help. I also have read that they can reproduce so fast they can "choke" each other out. Fungi populations are what need help in compost tea because they don't multiply and don't grow much in a 24/48 hour brew cycle. Bacteria will eat low carb sugars very fast. Think health foods. You guys should read the compost tea ingredients list that's on the yahoo compost tea groups. I'll try and post it up.

vonforne: Leaving the old 1/2 tea in the brewer helps aid in the reproduction of new micro-organisms. What is your take on that.

In theory, if the leftovers are alive and well and the anaerobic bacteria are kept under control this could help your new tea brew faster and possibly increase fungi levels. When water levels get low in your compost bucket, it is hard to keep it oxygenated and air pressure from the bubbles is greater. I wouldn't recommend using the last half an inch that is barley oxygenated into fresh tea.

minds_I:I use dry molasses on a soybean substrate. The carbs and protiens in the soymeal is a banquet for the microkiddies.

Dry molasses isn't as good a liquid, but much cheaper and cost effective for outdoors. I think that some of the nutrients are lost when it is dried. I'm gonna have to find where I read that. Soybean is a complete protein with all the amino acids.. great fungi food. Bragg's liquid aminos is a good liquid soybean additive with very low sodium. I haven't tried using soybean meal yet but it could possibly be better than the braggs because I think that is fermented somehow... anybody know more about soy sauce?

jaykush: http://www.bountea.com/index.html

Alaskan Humi-soil is the shit! The only "beef" I have with this brewer is you have to throw away the soaker hose after every brew or two. Plus rubber like cotton can be broken down by the microorganisms. It has like 10,000 different kind of microorganisms in it. They are unique because of the freezing temps in alaska.


- sbz

 

[Scay Beez]

ingredients.doc from yahoo compost tea group

ingredients.doc from yahoo compost tea group

Thanks to John Cowan, David Loring, Alex De Mello, Jeff Lowenfels, and Kirk Leonard for their work on this document. Thanks to Tom Jaszewski for a couple hours on the phone on the topic of compost tea – his dime. Thanks to everyone on this list who took the time to write down what they have learned or observed so that others could benefit.
Chris Reid
HOW TO USE THIS DOCUMENT
This is a document unlike your typical download, or book, or newspaper article.
I hope you will think of it as a new way of sharing information, and working with other people to capture even more and better information. The document consists of quotes from posts, and sometimes questions, observations, or requests for feedback.
Please remember: Your judgment is the final arbiter, not what is written here. Unlike books with editors who shape the content and wording and check the facts, this document is relatively unshaped and unchecked.
In fact, the only way this document will get better than it already is, is if YOU get involved and interact with it and contribute to it. You can look for the word FEEDBACK to see some of the places where we are missing information. Or you can come up with your own FEEDBACK where YOU see information missing or wrong.
NOTHING IN THIS DOCUMENT IS “THE TRUTH”. This is a compilation of information, opinions, and “what we have seen so far” statements. Sometimes, people guess. When you see someone guessing, do not assume they are right. Assume they are guessing. Keep looking for more information to see if they are right or not.
PLEASE PARTICIPATE. What have you learned? What will you learn so you can add to this document? What have your tests shown? What have you researched? If you share a little bit, and everyone shares a little bit, there will be a LOT of information in this document. Everyone will be better at making tea.

TABLE OF CONTENTS (Click to go to that topic)
Ingredients
Tea Compost
How to Grow Out Fungi in Compost
Compost Maturity
Micronized Compost

Nutrients

List of Sugar Names and Foods

Sugar vs. Molasses
Mill Mud
Malt vs. Molasses
Malt Vs. Soybean Meal
Molasses vs. Dry molasses composition
Minerals
Bark
Chitin, Chitinase, Crab Shells
Granulated crab waste and fish waste, flaked alfalfa meal and blood meal
Corn meal, corn bran, wheat bran
Ingredients Tried But Not Recommended As Of 9/6/2002
Cardboard as Tea Ingredient?
Vinegar
Yogurt and Lactobacilli
Dry Ingredients and Particle Size
Yeast
Kelp
Fish Hydrolysate vs. Braggs
Fish Oil Vs. Fish Emulsion
Leonardite in Tea?
Correction – Humic Acid Amounts in CT Manual
Humic Acid from Worm Compost - Australia
Humic Acid – Calcium Incompatibility
Humic Acid Products

Yucca
How to Cut Foam from Yucca

Hay and Protozoa
Mushroom compost
Leonardite
USE OF OTHER LIVING INGREDIENTS TO MANAGE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS
CROWN GALL and GALL-X
PSEUDOMONAS INOCULUM SUGGESTED TO HELP DEAL WITH POWDERY MILDEW ON STRAWBERRIES
FUNGI – BASIDIOMYCETE CULTURES
BEAUVERIA BASSIANA
ACTINOMYCETES

Ingredients

Compost tea is made of a source material (compost) plus other ingredients intended to feed the organisms in the source material, added to dechlorinated water at a temperature that ideally is in the low 70’s Fahrenheit and aerated for a specific amount of time.

In addition to temperature-controlled water, compost and aeration, foods for the types of organisms we intend to grow must be added to the brew.

There is some information on compost here, but it will be more extensively covered in another document.

The main focus of this document is to describe and discuss the various nutrients that can be added to tea to feed microorganisms growing in the tea.




SOURCE MATERIAL - TEA COMPOST
“Tea compost” means finished vermicompost or thermally composted compost, used as an ingredient in aerobically active compost tea. It does not mean fresh manure, manure that has not been thermally composted or completely vermicomposted. I don’t think bagged commercial compost products that have been pasteurized will have the level of soil critters you need for making tea, but I haven’t yet gotten a reply to queries I’ve made about this. Micronized compost is not suitable for making compost tea, according to Elaine Ingham (details below).

FEEDBACK from people who have used various types of compost and tested the results would be most welcome.

PRINCIPLE: Quality of compost is a major determinant in quality of tea. Garbage in, garbage out. See the section on compost for more information. For a fungal tea, there must be fungi in the compost. For protozoa in the tea, there must be protozoa. If you are making your own compost, you can deliberately select your compost ingredients to try to make compost that will provide the kind of tea you want, or that will provide the organisms for a particular plant type you wish to grow. That’s an entirely separate subject. Worm compost tends to have a pretty consistently strong protozoa content, according to Elaine.

While bacteria multiply relatively rapidly in a typical tea brewing cycle, Elaine Ingham has said that fungi do not reproduce within 24 hours. However, the threadlike fungal hyphae present can develop further in length. This is called “increasing fungal biomass”.

Say that again? Here’s what it means: If you weighed the fungi in your tea at the beginning and end of the brewing cycle, you would see an increase in weight (because the hyphal lengths have grown and increased), even though if you could count the fungi, the number of individual fungi would still be the same.

The largest component of compost tea is compost. But how much should you use? What should you consider when deciding?

Elaine Ingham said: “The questions [that affect quantity of compost to use] are: what kind of machine do you have? How is the compost held? Air pump or tea pump? Do you monitor aeration [with a DO meter, I assume]?”

Elaine’s post below is as much information as I could easily find on the subject.

FEEDBACK: People who have manufacturer recommendations on compost amounts might like to share them to add to this list and update it.

Another area that may seem minor but may be worth asking: Is it more useful to specify the amount of compost by VOLUME (cups, quarts, liters etc.) or WEIGHT (pounds, kilograms, etc)? Since the moisture level may vary in compost, maybe volume would be more accurate?

FEEDBACK from people who have tried to tweak their recipes both ways would be most welcome.

John Cowan: His opinion is that volume is more accurate.

From Elaine Ingham, post dated 7 September 2002:

Compost amounts vary - we're still learning!

The better the compost, the less volume of compost required. But there isn't a direct linear decrease of compost volume as the machine volume gets smaller.

Amount of compost to use varies with the brand of machine. The recipe information in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual is based on the Microb-Brewer.

TIP: You need to talk to the machine manufacturer to determine what they found while they tested their machines, with respect to compost volume. [NOTE from CR: A useful set of info would include the compost tea recipe, volume of compost to be added, brewing temperature and times, and SFI test results using this recipe and volume of compost.]

For EPM machines, for example, I believe the amount is 15 pounds in the 500 gal machine, but 7 to 10 pounds in the 100 gallon.

The Ground Up machines, Smart Brewers, and the EarthWorks machines take 8 to 12 pounds for 35 to 100 gallon machines.

The KIS 5 gal machine requires 3 pounds, I think, and the 25 gal KIS machine needs 7 pounds. The Alaska Giant 1 and 5 gal machines take from 1 to 3 pounds as I recall.

I'm not certain that the amount of compost needed in the 100 or 500 gallon Growing Solutions machines has ever been tested (you might want to call the manufacturer about it), but the 25 gal machine was tested by Hendrikus Schraven, and 7 pounds was adequate as long as the additional aerator is used.

Machines that hold the compost in single layer nylon compost bags seem to need less compost than machines that have woven or pressed fabric bags, or that have baskets with tiny holes. (end of post)

COMPOST MATURITY

The following website was found that may be useful in evaluating compost maturity.
Feedback on its usefulness or relevance is welcome.
http://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/MaturityTests.htm

MICRONIZED COMPOST

First, what is micronizing?

From: Jose Luiz M Garcia

The only way I know to micronize anything is to get that thing thru a Micronizer. A Micronizer is a special type of mill that not only grinds but also separates those very small and light particles that can float in the air by means of specially designed air flows devices sometimes using vortex type separators. I don´t believe that screening alone would separate particles as small as 1,000 mesh on a commercial scale. That would be ideal but too difficult to achieve in practical terms.

Jose Garcia said:

I did a google search on "micronized compost"and found the following references :
http://cranfordinc.com/Micronized.htm
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/recyclestore/detail.asp?PRODUCTID=1374
http://csanr.wsu.edu/programs/compost/Cc9.pdf
http://www.compostfarm.com/supplements.htm

There is an article by Dr Elaine in this one
http://www.jgpress.com/BCContents/2001/July01.html

http://www.jgpress.com/BCArticles/2001/020156.html

I wonder what happens with microbial life after micronization? Unfortunately there was no access to Dr Elaine´s article on that site. She was explaining exactly what happens after micronization.

A further post from Jose Luiz Garcia:

Micronization does destroy microbial life in the study I have seen. It also decreases nitrogen content but one has to see the picture as a whole and not only pay attention to numbers and figures. Today with micronized compost (even though with reduced life and reduced nitrogen) I can use it in my drip irrigation system with incredible results. With regular compost even though with a higher microbial life and higher N content I could never use it thru the irrigation system. You lose from one side so you can gain from the other. I still believe that Micronized Compost is a terrific product that allows you to make several things that regular compost can´t.

But that was not my original question. The original question was : Have any of you used Micronized Compost to make Compost tea ? That can be added directly in the tank. No need for using a bag. You can use say Micronized compost even as a food source directly in the tank and then use regular compost for microbial life if you will.

Reply from Elaine Ingham:

Micronized compost has not ever been shown to contain the organisms you require to suppress disease, retain nutrients, cycle nutrients back into a plant available form, decompose toxins in the soil, or build soil structure so water use can be reduced, roots will grow deeper into soil, and reduce erosion.

24-hour, aerobic compost tea contains the wonderfully diverse set of beneficial organisms form the compost, in an ACTIVE, living form that can grow and glue themselves to your leaf surfaces very rapidly, suppressing, competing with, inhibiting and consuming the disease organisms that come to land on your leaves or root systems.

Active organisms - that's the clue.

Micronized compost does not contain those organisms (unless you add them back with a compost tea).

But, micronized compost contains the nutrients and food resources from the compost, so if that is why you want compost, as a food resource for your organisms, then micronized compost is great to add as foods for your critters in your soil or on your leaf surfaces. All the nutrients your compost organisms need!


NUTRIENTS – IMPORTANT KEY TO MAKING BACTERIAL OR FUNGAL DOMINATED TEA

Excerpt from posts from Elaine Ingham, dates unknown:
Nutrients that we add to the compost tea brews should be differentiated from the source material [compost, the source of the micro-organisms], because these nutrients are not necessary except to alter the bacterial versus fungal dominance of the tea, and to add nutrients the plant needs.


REMINDER: Always read the label on ingredients. Elaine Ingham suggests to avoid all preservatives when selecting tea ingredients. What do preservatives do? They kill bacteria and fungi.

Currently Most Favored Ingredients to Promote Particular Organisms

SIMPLE sugars feed bacteria (see details on sugar below – bacteria need little encouragement)

Complex sugars feed both bacteria and fungi (see more details on sugars below)

Kelp provides micronutrients for your plants, and the microorganisms, and it is a SURFACE (also called substrate) for the fungi to grow on.

Fish emulsion feeds mostly bacteria

Fish hydrolysate has the fish oil in it as well as the simpler proteins, and so feeds FUNGI more than bacteria

Hay is often a source of protozoa (organic, unsprayed hay), as worm compost is frequently. You can pour the hay water on separately from the tea, or use the worm compost in making tea.

Humic acids are the most selective just for fungi. It is important to learn more about them, because I gather there are differences among humic acid products that can affect your results. I have sent out requests for more info from some list members, and if I get replies, I’ll add the info here. See what has been gathered to date, included below.


A LIST OF HUMAN FOODS THAT CONTAIN LARGE AMOUNTS OF SUGAR

Barley malt or malted barley
Beet sugar
Black strap molasses
Brown rice sugar
Brown rice syrup
Brown sugar
Cane sugar
Cane syrup
Cane syrup solids
Cane juice
Caramel
Caramel coloring
Confectioners' sugar
Corn sweetener
Corn syrup
Corn syrup solids
Crystalline fructose
Date sugar
Dextrin (a soluble carb from starch, used as an adhesive)
Dextrose (form of glucose)
Disaccharide
Fructose (Commonly found in fruits and honey-the sweetest of the simple sugars.)
Fructo-oligosaccharides
Fruit juice concentrate (Contains more sugar than fruit juice.)
Galactose (A white, crystalline, simple sugar derived from milk sugar)
Glucose (Found in fruit and animal tissue.)
Glycerin
Granulated sugar
Hexitol
High-fructose corn syrup
Honey
Invert sugar
Lactose (Sugar derived from milk.)
Levulose
Malt
Maltodextrin
Maltose (A white, crystalline, water-soluble sugar, made from starch.)
Maple sugar
Maple syrup
Microcrystalline cellulose
Molasses
Natural sweeteners
Polydextrose
Powdered sugar
Raisin juice
Raisin syrup
Raw sugar
Rice syrup
Simple syrup
Sorghum
Sucanat (the freshly extracted sugar cane juice is evaporated with only water removed.)
Sucrose (White table sugar; 50% glucose and 50% fructose.)
Sugar cane syrup
Syrup
Table sugar
Turbinado sugar
Unrefined sugar
White sugar


ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

The information below delves into more detail on various possible ingredients and as much as we could begin to gather about their properties.
SUGAR VS MOLASSES
QUESTION: In adding sugars to a brewing solution, will any sugar work (pure white cane sugar)? Could one use honey?
In my experience, white sugar tends to get you more of the not-so-great bacterial species than say molasses, or honey. You need a diversity of food resources, and white sugar basically is just about pure sucrose. Not feeding a wide range of bacteria there. (Elaine Ingham)
Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:48 am
MALT VS MOLASSES
Food sources vary in their ability to grow fungi.
The list below shows sugars, from lowest to highest ability to grow fungi, and points out they are less helpful than e.g. soy sauce. If you compare
white sugar (a simple sugar) to
brown sugar to
unsulfured molasses to
malt to
soy sauce.
As far as sugars go, Elaine reported in this post that the least helpful sugar in growing fungi is white sugar (NOT helpful), and the most helpful SUGAR is reported to be malt, but none are as effective as, say, soy sauce. [NOTE: This is for comparative purposes – don’t read it as saying that you must run out and get soy sauce for your tea.]
Why? The key is structural complexity of the sugars and proteins in these materials. [NOTE: Remember that fungi are better at breaking down complex sugars than bacteria.]
Molasses has some fungal foods, but malt has more fungal food, but less fungal food than soy sauce.

KELP

FEEDBACK: How to select kelp products, different kinds of kelp (liquid vs. powdered; percentage important in extract?), contribution of kelp, difference in quality of kelp products as substrates
ACADIAN KELP: Acadian kelp is Norwegian cold water kelp, isn't it? Both bacteria and fungi are enhanced by cold water kelp high in nutrients. The Acadian kelp website has lots of good information about the trials they've done with the kelp. Also, kelp adds nutrients that can be taken up by the foliage, and by roots. (Elaine Ingham response to question)
FISH HYDROLYSATE VS. BRAGGS

NOTE: What is Braggs? Quote from a website selling it: "Braggs All Purpose Seasoning" is made of soybeans and water only. There are no additives, preservatives, chemicals, coloring agents, or added sodium. Braggs is not fermented or heated and is easily digestible.
Elaine Ingham, post dated 3 February 2003): said
Bragg's is right there with soy sauce. I actually like fish hydrolysate better.

FEEDBACK: Has anyone tested tea made with various brands of fish hydrolysate and compared the test results? Describe fish emulsion vs. fish hydrolysate.

FISH OIL VS. FISH EMULSION

Not all parts of the world have access to fish hydrolysate as an ingredient. What can you use? See Mike Benton’s note (Mike is from South Africa)

Note: Follow-up info requested from Mike Benton. He wrote back 12/19/03 to say he had not resolved this question yet.

Dear Doc Elaine,
In a reply to a question on fish emulsion you suggested that fish oil would be more fungally suitable.I have now managed to get some from one of the large fishing companies.I am waiting for more info from them but it smells like cod-liver oil from when I was a kid.My question is how much should one use safely.I know that this is a piece of string type question but we were using 2.5-3 liter of fish emulsion without blowing the DO2.Could we then use as much fish oil,perhaps?We have about two and a half times the water volume of air, available at the diffuser so we have fairly good aeration.Typical reciepe used to be 20 lt compost ,10 lt castings,2.5/3
liters of some or all of the following,molasses.humic acid,soaked kelp flakes,and Seagro, a fish emulsion.This is on 1200 liters. Will the fish oil also cancel out the sunflower oil used to control the foam now? Please please please tell us that you are trying to get a lab going here,in South Africa .Without you guys any other tests are meaningless.All we do is check the smell and see the results. Or at least tell us that you will be coming back soon )
LEONARDITE:
Jose Luiz M Garcia (9/9/2002) said:
Leonardite (oxidized lignite) is the raw material from which soluble humates are extracted. They are very low in fulvic and humic acids. I would not recommend to use them but to use its extract or soluble humates. In case you still want to use Leonardite you should dissolve it in water and throw out the insoluble portion. You can add a little lye to improve extraction of the humates from the raw leonardite.

Tom Piatkowski (9/9/2002) said:
Buyers beware! In the market for humic acids / leonardites, you almost always get what you pay for!
Many leonardite products on the market are tailings from coal operations or exhibit very poor levels of quality control. There is more to leonardite than just humic acid. Dependent upon the source one can expect products to have different salt indexes. The quality of the actual humic acids can vary tremendously between deposits.
Another aspect to humic acids / leonardite that one should be aware of is they can be a bit difficult to handle. Leonardite will not readily dissolve in water. By its very nature the large carbon molecules are only soluble in pH's above 7.0.
What manufacturers have done in response to this is to process the leonardite or humic extracts so they are more friendly to the end user. The problem is most of the time, in doing so, they degrade the quality of the product.
FEEDBACK: Have asked Tom Jaszewski for his reading references. I am unclear whether the processed leonardite is now leonardite or is humic acid extracted from leonardite.
Is there a difference between humic acid derived from leonardite and humic acid derived from other sources? What exactly are the other sources? What chemicals to avoid in extraction? Is there a difference between leonardite from mine tailings and leonardite from “compressed peat”? What is compressed peat? When the leonardite’s humic acid is extracted, does it remain soluble only when it’s at a high pH? What happens if the tea has a lower pH?

Elaine Ingham said: Putting raw leonardite in your tea doesn't do a thing except destroy your pump, because the microbes can't chew through all the other stuff in leonardite (the pre-coal mineral that contains - relatively speaking - high amounts of humic acids) to get to the humic acids in a 24 hour period.

OK, SO I SHOULDN’T PUT LEONARDITE IN MY TEA?
Elaine Ingham said:
Putting raw leonardite in your tea doesn’t do a thing except destroy your pump, because the microbes can't chew through all the other stuff in leonardite (the pre-coal mineral that contains - relatively speaking - high amounts of humic acids) to get to the humic acids in a 24 hour period.
In the soil, the microbes can't do much to leonardite in even a few weeks, although maybe in a couple months some benefit of selecting for humic acid that use organisms would occur. (Fungi would be needed to decompose the leonardite.)
But adding to the tea? Not helping much..
Elaine Ingham said:
Anyone else have a favorite humic acid? If we've tested it, and I can share the data, I'll let you know how it did in testing. .
CORRECTION - HUMIC ACID AMOUNTS IN BREWING MANUAL
From: ElaineIngham said (10-30-2002):
The amounts in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual were for the Microb-Brewer (50 gal machines), and I agree that the amounts are much too high.
The next edition of the CTBM will say that manufacturers directions should be followed relative to amounts of foods to be put in the machines. More food should be added in the fall, winter and spring during cold and cooler months, while minimal amounts of foods should be used in the summer.

Temperature makes a great deal of difference.

HUMICS FROM WORM COMPOST

T. Dodge asked:
Dr. Ingham has mentioned a firm in Australia extracting humics from worm compost for commercial purpose/scale. What’s the name of that company?

The company is Tryton, based in New South Wales.

INCOMPATIBILITY BETWEEN CANO3 AND HUMIC ACID:
Chris Reid said:
Tim Kiphart mentioned an incompatibility problem between humic acid and CaNO3, or Ca. Mike Harvey said he didn't know of anything.

The bottle of 21 per cent humic acid (Bio Hume from Fertrell) I have contains a specific warning not to mix it with CaNO3. No explanation.

David Loring said:
Tim - I mixed some humic acid with Calcium Chloride solution and it made a gel. I'm not sure what happened but I think that might have been the reason for the warning. I tried adding humic acid to a Sodium Chloride solution and no gel was formed so it probably has to do with the Ca double plus

Some people are adding calcium nitrate to their soil to help improve Cal: Mag ratio under Albrecht –type soil balancing, so it might become relevant if the desire were to apply them and spray them on together.
HUMIC ACID PRODUCTS
Key qualities: Seem to be the source of the humic acid, the percent humic acid, the way the humic acid was extracted, what else is in it besides humic acid (fulvic acid?).

Dan Lynch asked:
Does anyone have comments based on tested CT on either of these humic products?

Sp-85 from http://www.teravita.com/Products/Products.htm

and Humisolve USA from http://www.humic.com/

I have some of both and wonder if I should just mix them together in my next batch or if one was superior for fungal growth. Also how much to use per 10 gallons?

Jose Luiz Garcia responded on 10/31/02:
Both are extracted using either NaOH (sodium hydroxide) or KOH (potassium hydroxide) and therefore both are highly alkaline products. Please take that into consideration for pH purposes. as you know fungi does not like alkaline environments. (“FEEDBACK: IS THIS AN ISSUE?). Both are similar products being Lignite water soluble alkaline extracts. What one needs to understand is that those humic products can vary from batch to batch even in the same brand depending on the ore they utilize for the extraction process.
Regarding the quantity to use, I believe that the pH will tell you the maximum quantity you should use. You will have to play around with a pH meter to see how they affect pH. I generally use 150 to 200 grams to 1,000 liters. FEEDBACK: CAN PH BE USED TO DETERMINE MAX?

Jose


It is timely that you have raised this issue.
I have been using Nutritechs humic acid, this is a humic acid that has been extracted using Potassium Hydroxide against an insoluble humic acid. This process allows the humics to be soluble and has a resulting pH of about 8. Has this one been tested?? It sounds like it may not be a great food source for fungi. (don’t have sender name)
Elaine's reply - Nutritech products are problematical for me. They always say SFI has tested their products, but won't give out the data on the product. Nutritech won't give SFI permission to give the data out. It is their data, they paid for the testing to be done. So, all I can say is, you need to insist on seeing the data before you believe the salesman.


FEEDBACK: are there humic acids that are not made using solvents? Is the alkalinity of these products a tea issue? Is lignite as the raw material different from leonardite, or is it oxidized lignite, same as leonardite?


YUCCA
Dan Lynch, said: (10/3/2003)

Why use yucca?

It is a documented fungal food plus a great penetrant/surfactant. Gets the CT into the ground and feeds the fungi. I too add it after brewing.

I used to add during brewing but had foam problems. Also had highest fungal numbers (measured) with that brew - Saponyn. I did a couple of brews with yucca with a preservative (sodium benzoate) and the fungal numbers were nonexistent, again measured. As Elaine says don't use preservatives.


WHAT ARE PRODUCT QUALITIES TO SEEK IN YUCCA EXTRACT?

First, no preservatives in it. Sodium benzoate is a preservative.

Second, look at the percentage of saponin content. Do not assume that something that says “x per cent yucca extract” means “x per cent saponin”. The saponin content is separate and distinct from the total dissolved solids (TDS). If you see a high number – say 70 per cent – it is probably TDS, but check.

Third, how was the juice extracted? Was it pressed out or chemically extracted? Certain kinds of saponin for medical purposes that require purity may be using a chemical extraction. For tea making, seek a pressed extraction to avoid any negative effect of extra chemicals.

FEEDBACK: Fourth, should we be trying to find out what else is in there besides yucca? Mine smells like molasses. Does anyone know what the rest of the ingredients are?

From: Carole Eddington
On 12/1/01 we took our tea sample out for Soil Food Web Testing, then put in a saponin, Thermex 70 from Peaceful Valley immediately after and took another sample out with the Saponin. The active fungal biomass without the saponin were 7.45 and with saponin 4.1. Elaine said it may have been some type of preservatives in the saponin or something. I have found Desert King is experimenting with a dry powder saponin without preservatives. I got a sample but I have not tried it yet. .

Laura Sabourin also reported on finding a product called Ther X70 Yucca Extract, manufactured by Cellu-Con (559-568-0190) and OMRI listed. The concentration is said to be 70 per cent concentrated yucca extract. (note that is different from the percentage of saponin)

Tom Jaszewski wrote:
The only advantage I see to ThermX is being able to buy quarts. At 2-3 oz./acre many will not need much more. The label matches Helena Chemicals’ Saponyn product @ 20% saponin.

Elaine Ingham wrote (5/26/2002):
Saponin - Helena Chemical Co has exclusive rights to the best saponin product we've tested yet - no preservatives. And sorry, I haven't seen a better one. Anything else we have worked with has negative effects, because of the preservative in the material, low concentration, doesn't get the organisms to grow. If someone knows of something else, let me know, and let's test it! But, track down the saponyn product from Helena because it works.
Link: http://www.helenachemical.com/proprietary/products/bioscience/saponyn/saponyn.htm

5-28-02, Laura Sabourin wrote she had found a Canadian supplier, Yu-cann , offering a product with saponin from yucca, without preservatives. Their product, Sure-Grow was reported to sell for CDN$7.80 per litre so around US$20.00 gallon.

Dan Lynch suggested that she check to see the percentage of Saponin and reported Helena's Saponyn sells for $75US/gallon with a one gallon smallest size. Laura reported back that Sure-Grow is 5.1% saponin compared to 20% from Helena CHEMICALS. She also reported that the person at Yu-cann raised the question as to whether the Helena product was chemical extracted and noted that Sure-Grow is acceptable for organic use.

Tom Jaszewski researched this issue and posted (6/14/2002) the following correspondence from Tom Piatkowski of Helena Chemical

“I did some checking to make sure I was correct in my statements to you. The manufacturer of our materials is OMRI listed. The material is approved for use by organic farmers.

“Helena did not choose to maintain an OMRI certification for this product or several others. Instead, we have chosen to address the issue by referring to the National Standards. This is the only practical manner we can provide customers nationwide with organically approved materials.

“There are techniques that have been developed to chemically extract saponin from plants and trees. Saponin is a widely used material in areas (biotech ) that require very pure and exact extractions. This is not the case with Saponyn. Saponin in our product is extracted by pressing Yucca logs and is then concentrated to the 20% level.” (end of post)

Dan Lynch reported finding but not having tried another possibly less expensive source at this link:

http://www.ycdi.com/yucca.htm

Dan wrote to the source and received this reply from Robert Simpson:
“Thank you for your enquiry! The saponin content is 20%, the brix rating is 50 and it is processed food grade. It is on the California Department Of Food and Agriculture's Preliminary Organic Materials List-W, as a natural wetting agent, published in 1998, as in compliance with the California Organic Foods Act of 1990.”

No other reports on this product were found in the archives. Dan suggested that the company have SFI test their product. If you contact them about the possibility of buying their product, you could ask if they’ve chosen to test their product with SFI. In the list archives, there is an offer from Robert Simpson for a discount to compost tea list members.

Dan Lynch reported that his experience with Ag-Aide 50 is that it has a preservative that appears to limit organism growth. He used it but says “ CT testing showed the problem.” No other reports on this product; we didn’t ask Dan for the test results that led Dan to that comparative conclusion.

FEEDBACK: The most useful way to present the product data would be in a table, with price, percent yucca extract, per cent saponin, other ingredients, bottle sizes or minimum order, and OMRI/organic certification. The goal would be to avoid hosannas and to present comparative info so that people can make their own informed decisions.


Yucca & Saponin

From: [email protected]
From my test results last year Saponyn (Yucca extract) [corresponded with the best fungal numbers in tea] but it foams like mad so I add just before spraying. Other items for fungal extraction are said to be Dramm liquid fish (hydrolysate), humic acid, dried horsetail as well as other commercial preparations mentioned in the CT Brewing Manual. Elaine also mentioned good aeration helps fungal extraction.


Elaine Ingham wrote:
Fungal foods -- saponin is good, but it foams to high heaven. Bruce Elliott shared his experience with me once -- everything was fine when he left late evening, after putting saponin in the brew mid-afternoon. When he walked in early the next morning, his entire facility was waist deep in foam...[snip]...

A REMINDER TO KEEP RESULTS IN PERSPECTIVE:

May 26, 2002 Tom Jaszewski said:
I wouldn't be too quick to make a judgment on the basis of one tea sampling. We use Saponyn, the trade name for Helena Chemical's saponin extract. There are so may variables in producing tea, especially, it seems in getting good fungal extraction. Do you measure your oxygen levels? Have you followed good cleaning procedures? Was the parent material from the same batch? What are the inert ingredients?

Yucca extract made without Sodium Benzoate.
My biggest concern for Yucca without preservatives is how long it will store

STORING YUCCA EXTRACT

Jason Kimm said:
I store my Yucca for up to a year. I keep it in a shed where the temperature ranges from 32 F to 90 F. I will not store an open container that has been contaminated (for example by a splash of tea or water) or store the yucca in container other than the one it was shipped in. If I open a container during the summer and the temp is high (say above 50 F) I would store the Yucca in a refrigerator. The yucca I use is in an opaque container so light is not an issue other than its effect on temperature. My source is Desert King and they are willing to produce a preservative free product.

I order it in 5-gallon pails but they also ship in 1 gallon containers. They will not ship in 50 gal drums because of the risk of spoilage. The key is to keep the lid closed and don't pour material back into the source container. (Jason Kimm)

WHAT ARE STORAGE CONDITIONS - temperature?

Unfortunately I've been unwilling to risk the loss of material from spoilage. Since I have hundreds of acres less than you farm, even a single gallon lasts quite awhile. That being the case I'm willing to use products with small amounts of preservative. My concern here is for the many smaller brewers that would use very small quantities. Saponyn has been written about as being among the highest quality yucca extracts and I'm certain it has preservatives. [NOTE: you can buy it with or without preservatives from Helena Chemical]


FEEDBACK: Wrote to Paul Sachs for any input he may have on storage and additional input on humic acid and yucca qualities and product characteristics. He can’t respond till after holidays. 12/19/03

INGREDIENTS TO CONTROL FOAMING

Elaine Ingham said: Just a few drops [of corn oil] helps cut the foam. But be careful of the kind of oil - SOME canola oils and olive oils are anti-fungal. You might want to test before and after adding the oil to see what effect the oil had on the organisms.

Fish emulsion, hydrolysate said to cut foam in brew

Mike Harvey said: I do not use yucca in my tea. I do use fish emulsion to reduce the foam in a normal CT brew. I have no test results to say if this is a positive or not. I use it regularly and it will drop the foam immediately once added.

Steve Robideux (sp?) at SFI Aus highly recommends the fish hydrolysate to cut foam. I have used hydrolysate as well and seems to have a higher % oil and so works better. To 1000 litre CT I will add 100ml and this will last for say 3 hours (it will be eaten by the organisms?) and then foam will start again. This is very approximate and is adequate for our purposes. I will then add more say 100ml, total in a brew 1000 litres say 0.4 litre.

TIP FOR ADDING ALREADY-GROWN FUNGI TO TEA RECIPE

Sat Sep 21, 2002 11:50 pm, Elaine Ingham said:
When you put the white, fibrous fungi into the tea, I hope you put the surrounding woody pieces and soil in as well. The white hyphae are good indicators of good fungi, but if you put just the strands, you may not have gotten the spores or the active hyphae. The active hyphae are the tips, which you can't see with your un-aided eyes. Thus, the soil in the handful of material around the white strands is the best idea.


PRE INOCULATING COMPOST FOR FUNGAL GROWTH IN TEA:

What do good fungi grown out in compost look like? Thick white strands, NOT FUZZY, GREY stuff. OK? We don't want to see spores.

ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION OF GROWING OUT FUNGI IN COMPOST

From: Jeff Lowenfels
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 1:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compost_tea] A proposal for Testing compost and nutrients for fungi: The Experiment

Folks,

I hope this starts a new thread, if you will pardon the imagery" in our quest to both figure out who best to get fungal numbers up, consistently, in teas and also the reduce the cost of testing by figuring out correlations between what we can observe at home vs. what the tests consistently reveal. I am hopeful that others on this list will engage in a simple set of experiments, that we pool the information and then see if we can't forward our cause!

This past month a few of us up here in Alaska have been trying this experiment in an effort to get better fungal readings in our teas. We've been taking samples of our compost (in this case Alaska Humus) and adding various suggested tea nutrients to see if we could induce visible fungi growth. Again, we are hopeful that others will try this, too. In the process the group can come up with a standard protocol that we can all try, at the same time, sometime next month---a list-serve wide experiment designed to answer some questions on fungal growth in teas once and for all!

Test so far have been samples with various combinations of vinegar, malt, Bragg and humic acid such as. For control up here we are all using Alaska Humus.

0. Control...Alaska humus....1 cup
1. + Vinegar to lower pH....1 teaspoon per cup
2.+ Humic Acid......1 teaspoon per cup
3. +Bragg Amino... 2 teaspoon per cup
4. +Brewer's Malt....2 teaspoons per cup
5. malt and vinegar
6. malt and humic acid
7 malt and braggs
8 malt and Bragg and humic
9 malt and Bragg and humic and vinegar

and whatever other combinations there are. One These were dampened slightly and covered and placed in warm, dark locations. I had mine on a seed germinating heat mat. One tester had his on top of a refrigerator for warmth. Another kept the samples in a warm, stuffy office. The results, mycelium---nice threads, appeared in some and not in others. And they were there in varying amounts.

So far our observations include:
Malt and Bragg do indeed induce fungal growth--at least in Alaska Humus compost.
I am still holding out on if the vinegar helps...amount to use should be tested with a pH meter. One guy thinks it does, one of us doesn't. So, no conclusions here.

Malt, in particular, seems to be the best nutrient in our tests so far. It was the first to display and had the most penetration. After three days you could tip the cup upside down and the whole compost mass fell out like it was molded Jell-O! A few of the others got there, but took much longer---five to six days. --Neither vinegar or AH alone generate visible fungi. --Combinations were not always better than single ingredients.

I don't want to influence other's tests, so I will hold back on the exact results until those that want to try, give it a go.

For standards sake, try using 1 cup of compost......and teaspoons per cup of ingredients so others can try and replicate for comparisons.

Now the questions is: What makes more sense:
1 Growing the fungi in compost using a pre-brew soak and then using the compost for tea
2 Growing the fungi in the tea using the ingredients we know work in the compost and skipping the pre-brew soak
3 Growing fungi in compost using a pre-brew soak and then using the nutrients again in the tea?

Intuition suggests #3. Testing will tell. Wish they weren't so expensive! It would be great if there is some correlation between what you see in your compost by way of mycelium and what you get in your tea by way of fungal count. Then we can reduce the number of test necessary insofar fungi is concerned.

We would be very interested in seeing if others have the same experience with their compost and if you want to try the group experiment next month!


OTHER NOTES ON GROWING OUT FUNGI

PHOTOS: David Loring’s photos of fungal growth in preinoculated compost:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/agriculture/composting/compost_tea-list/archive1/0494.html

I assume soybean meal is ground seed! I buy it at the local feed store here. Man, did it ever produce fungi! I used one teaspoon per cup and added a teaspoon of water. I then put the cup on a seed germinating mat. Fungal mycelium appeared two days later. (and later) Incidentally, the use of soy bean meal seems more effective than malt at growing fungi in compost......all that stuff with BRAGGS which is just liquid soy for the most part....why didn't we think of soy bean meal earlier? (Jeff Lowenfels)

I saw exactly the same thing with rice bran but I figure any other bran would have same effect. (Jose Luiz Garcia)
**
The highest fungal numbers I have gotten in a tea came from pretreating 16 ounces of a woody compost with 2 ounces of fish hydrolysate for three days at 80*F. It was covered with fungi by the time I added it and the analysis showed it was in the 3um category of beneficial sized fungi.
**
I have now been able to grow the exact same, long, long, snowy white mycelium using baby oatmeal, malt (specifically "Munton's Wheat Unhopped, Spray Malt Extract, 3 lbs for 11 dollars and do be careful not to get any of it but what you are using wet--available wherever you can buy beer making supplies), and, of course, "the Meals" i.e. feather meal, bone meal, blood meal, cottonseed meal and alfalfa meal. (source?)

On 9/25/02, Jeff Lowenfels said:
Dan, the malt I used to get the fungi to grow in my compost, Alaska Humus, was brewer's malt. I only sent the site yesterday to give names...not as a source because the prices are too high there. Yeah, brewer's malt is really cheap!

Elaine Ingham said:
I agree with Jeff on the way to grow beneficial fungi in your compost. Add beneficial fungal foods to the compost, and/or add Alaska humus to your not-so-great-compost, and let them grow at 50% moisture.

Pay attention to the kind of fungi growing. David Loring has some good pictures on his website of the different fungi grown from different composts with different food resources. You can tell the bad "composts" because they only grew gray fuzz, not thick white strands.

The kelps and algae weren't good fungal foods, because they didn't grow the beneficial fungi either. The humus, humic acids and fish hydrolysate grew the good fungi from the good composts.

Easy to test which composts are good composts that way too!

Or you can send tests into us to know as well. Your choice!



HAY FOR OBTAINING PROTOZOA
You can obtain your own protozoa by taking a five gallon bucket and filling it with water. If you are using chlorinated tap water, allow the water to sit for an hour or agitate it to release the chlorine. Add a handful or two of ORGANIC unsprayed straw or hay??? OR JUST HAY? and aerate it. Length of time and temperature unclear to me – Paul Wagner of SFI said to soak for 3 days; others say 24-48 hours, but temperature could be a key consideration.

FEEDBACK: I believe protozoa reproduce slowly and are not going to increase in a typical brew cycle. We may just be stripping them out of hay or bark rather than growing them. Can somebody confirm the rate of reproduction in water?

QUESTION: What happens if you let hay in a bucket sit longer than a couple of days? Mine smelled a little less grasslike at first, and then the grasslike smell started to fade. It didn’t smell bad, but I did wonder if alcohol could be starting to form.
Could too-long processing lead to fermentation taking place, making alcohol and kill the protozoa, damage soil on which it’s poured?

There is also a protozoan inoculum available from [email protected] for folks who don't want the trouble of making the hay infusion.

Yes, in the soil, it takes two weeks at 72 F for the protozoa to get going and wake up to the fact you have improved the bacteria population, which some of the protozoa – predators that they are -- like to eat.

So, adding the inoculum can be important to get the nutrient cycling going right away. [Bacteria take up the nitrate form of nitrogen, which get released as the ammonium form of nitrogen when the protozoa eat the bacteria)

Tom J is correct on the worm compost - all good worm composts contain GREAT numbers of protozoa, easily extracted into tea when using an actively aerated CT machine.

Do not expect any good protozoa when using either Soil Soup or Growing Solutions systems. Only if the GSI system is improved the way Hendrikus Schraven has shown is possible can you get passable protozoa extracted.

Otherwise, the EPM, KIS, AG, Sottilo, Earthwise, WormGold, Bob Norsen, Hronek brewers (all the ones that stay aerobic during brewing), extract protozoa from the compost, and allow them to survive, just fine in the tea. As long as you have good protozoa numbers in the compost.

Comment to poster:
If you have access to a microscope, you may very well want to take a look at your non-compost tea. You very well may have protozoa growing in it and it may make a great protozoa stew! Some of the protozoa you can just barely see with the naked eye if you don't have a microscope. I would love to know what you find if you do!

Jeff Lowenfels said:
For those not familiar with the topic, it is possible to grow protozoa and release them either in teas or after teas have been applied. I liken the bacteria and fungi as "fertilizer bags" and the protozoa and nematodes as the "fertilizer spreaders." Doc E (and correct me if I am wrong!) has mentioned that it takes two or three weeks before the protozoa in the soil wake up to the fact that there is an increased food supply (namely, the bacteria). Adding protozoa should speed up this response time, I believe.


TESTING YOUR HAY's SAFETY

Thomas Giannou wrote (5/13/2003):

You bring up a good point about clopyralid. It's frequently okay for farmers to use clopyralid on their hay to control weeds, but when they bale the hay who knows where the bales end up? A local garden store perhaps? And then a CTer buys a bale or a gardener uses the hay for mulch in their garden and one can kiss those broad leaf garden plants goodbye! Where clopyralid is used, there's frequently rules for who can apply the product and there should be rules for what can be done with the hay treated with the product. But I sometimes wonder how good those rules are when hay passes through different parties' hands? How can we protect our selves from clopyralid? Is there a simple (meaning inexpensive test) that can be done?

Matt Ryan Replied 5/13/2003:

A germination test with garden cress (Lepidium sativum L.) or lettuce (Lactuca sativa) is recommended to test for the absence of residues of toxic breakdown products. The cress test is a qualitative assay with high sensitivity. (end of post)

IDEA: Clearly, this assay identifies clopyralid in the soil, not in the hay you are about to use to grow protozoa. However, maybe it would work to soak the hay in water, water the growing medium for the garden cress with only this water, and try the test that way.

From: "Scott Alexander" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Compostteas] fungi??????
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:19:50 +1000

> First, what has worked to increase fungi in your teas?

Jeff - I will be producing a new batch next week and i'll be scratching around in the litter in the forest beside me for fungal threads, plus I'll be collecting up a bag of old wood chips that has some threads in it and springtails (I scored a 18.8 Total fungi when I used it last time), plus I now have liquid aloe vera and some saponin powder to add to this brew plus my bio-dynamic contacts sent me this info. "yes you can make a tea of casuarina instead of equisetum. It's very good for developing big fat fungal hyphae in the soil! or compost!" So I boiled up some casuarina leaves (it's a she oak) to extract the silica but I have no idea if this will help increase the fungi count. As usual, I'll have a bag of compost and I'll add humic acid, molasses, fish and kelp and have the CT tested after 24 hours and then after 48 hours. Fingers crossed for a Total Fungi count of 30 and Total bacteria of 1000

Scott
FOLLOWUP: Note sent to Scott re: products he’s using and experience with fungi count and casuarina. No reply received as of 12/19/03.

MUSHROOM COMPOST:
Matt Ryan 9/27/02 said: I would be careful with using mushroom compost. I always heard that mushroom compost , unless from organic source, contains a lot of fungicides and bad stuff (could just be hearsay).
FEEDBACK: Anyone who has researched this subject, your input would be very welcome.

YEAST

[NOTE: Yeasts growing anaerobically produce alcohol (which is why they get used in making beer), and it takes very little alcohol to be quite toxic to the microorganisms you are trying to grow.]

Elaine Ingham, post dated Tue, 10 Sep 2002 :
Yeast are certain kinds of fungi that are often facultative anaerobes, which means they grow aerobically when there is enough oxygen, but grow anaerobically when oxygen starts to get too low.
I am a bit leery of adding something specially to my tea, or compost, that will make alcohol when anaerobic conditions occur.

Maybe not entirely reasonable, because there are many other bacteria that have the same ability. But I don't add them to my compost or tea either.

BARK

QUESTION: On page 59 of Compost Tea Brewing Manual, 3rd Edition, there is a reference to using bark compost in a brewing solution. Is there any particular type of bark to use or to avoid?

Elaine Ingham replies: Use bark that has aged. And use a mix of barks, not just one type.



DRY INGREDIENTS - PAY ATTENTION TO PARTICLE SIZE
Jose Luiz Garcia said:
Depending on the type of the machine you have one has to pay close attention to the size of the particle. Please remember that fungi and bacteria will have only 24 hours of fun inside the brewer. The smaller the size of the ingredient particle, the faster its utilization. (NOTE: This comment does not include compost.)

CHITIN, CHITINASE, CRAB SHELLS

Anne.Donahue posted on 10/15/2003:

I attended the Vermico conference in Portland this past weekend (great conference by the way) and gleaned that finely ground crab/lobster shells fed to a vermicomposting system or added to as a tea nutrient selects for organisms (bacteria?) that break chitin down.

The reason why (I think) this is important is that these organisms are then used to control insects that have chitin in their bodies (exoskeleton?), and fungal pathogens that also contain chitin.

I may or may not have the correct information here, and was hoping this might stimulate discussion about using fine ground crab shells as a nutrient in our teas, or the use of crab shell fed vermicompost in our teas.

I'm also trying to locate a source of fine ground crab shells.

I would appreciate any thoughts any of you might have on this.

Anne Donahue

Post from Elaine Ingham:

Typically it is both bacterial and fungal species that make chitinase. There are different components in the chitin molecules in crustaceans versus fungi at times, so the exact enzyme can be different.

I actually think it is probably more likely that the chitin feeds a community of bacteria and fungi that are exceptional at chewing on pests. We don't have good data for the mechanism of whether it is chitinase production that selects against the pests, or just that chitin is a food that selects for the organisms that compete well with the pests.

But nonetheless, adding chitin to worm composts to improve these organisms is patented. Ah, adding chitin to your bin for your own production is not limited by the patent, but selling such a compost with the claim that the compost is better because of the chitin addition would be infringing the patent, I believe. (end of post)

Jeff Young responded:
Anne,

Let me know how much crab shell you are looking for. I assume it is a small amount (less than 10 lbs). I can mill it to whatever size you want. If you only need a small amount, I would be happy to give it to you (just pick up the freight).

We produce chitin and chitosan here, though not every day.

I am glad to see you bring this subject up. There are companies out there trying to pass off crab shell as chitin, or they tout the benefits of chitin or chitosan as though that is what their product is.

People need to understand that crab shells (or anything that contains chitin) need to have the chitin and chitosan extracted from them. The best method for doing this in agriculture, as I understand it, is through vermi-composting.

We use a chemical process here, but we are trying to find a way to do it enzymatically.

I am sure that Elaine will have a lot to say on this subject as we have discussed it at length.

I would love to see some SFI testing in this area. I would be happy to supply the raw materials for this.

Squid quills are a source of pure chitin that occurs naturally in nature. I would like to see how squid quills (which we also have) would compare to crab shell in vermicompost.

Crab shell is generally considered the best source of chitin/chitosan because it gives you the highest yield of chitin.


On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Elaine Ingham said:
Yes, Jeff is right. Grinding up shells isn't the same as having an extracted pure product. Microbes work on surfaces, and if most of the food resource is still in chunk form, the microbes can't get to it.



Same with chitin. Chunks of shell don't help much in a tea. Just not enough time for use to happen. If you ground up the material, then more surface area for the critters to chew on. But still, 24 hours? Not likely a benefit in the tea - but yes, benefit in the soil.

Adding chunky foods to the tea and getting it spread on the soil works - the orgnaisms will use the food in the soil and give long term benefits.

If you want to have effects in the tea, you need to use extracted, higher percentage chitin containing materials. Or humic acid materials (see above discussion).

Having the pure stuff means the chitin-using critters that seem to have highly competitive actions, and chew up insect larvae in the soil, will grow in the tea.

The question ends up, cost-benefit.

So, as we keep educating people to "think like a microbe", you'll all be able to answer these questions on your own.

Must be the weekend, I just got a flash of the MTV platinum song "walk like an egyptian" by Cindy Louper (?- well, name is close) from a few years ago.

"Just think like a microbe....."

Who wants to go for this one?

GRANULATED CRAB WASTE AND FISH WASTE, FLAKED ALFALFA MEAL AND BLOOD MEAL
(Elaine Ingham) The following materials are going to depend greatly on the precise set of food resources present, and there are changes in quality with time or season. Variability is to be expected.
Crab waste granulated - meat products are likely to push rapid bacterial growth., so be careful to maintain oxygen concentration in your brew.
Fish waste granulated - go back to Bob Norsen's experience with fish – again, careful that you’re maintaining oxygen levels!
Flaked alfalfa meal - High nitrogen, so add if your plants need the N.
Blood meal - High nitrogen, and a very rich food resource, so watch oxygen levels.

CORN MEAL, CORN BRAN, WHEAT BRAN
Probably more fungal foods than bacterial in them.. The variation in response by the bacteria and fungi probably is directly related to protein types in the materials.
MINERALS
greensand
rock phosphate
rock dusts from quarries
They are nutrients which the microbes should help move into the plant. You should look at a soil chemistry test to determine if you need to add these to your soil, or better yet, do plant tissue tests to determine if certain nutrients are actually plant limiting.
Quite often, the nutrient will seem to be limiting in the soil, but be in good concentration in plant tissues. This is likely to be an organism-mediated nutrient uptake mechanism. But when the nutrient is high in soil, but low in the plant tissue, then most likely the biology needed to take up the nutrient and supply it to the plant is missing. Getting the biology back into the soil, on the roots, or on the foliage, would be a necessary step to get the normal nutrient cycling processes going again.
Jose Luiz Garcia said::
If you are circulating the tea thru a pump, some materials like rock dust, greensand, etc.. can actually damage the equipment. Most of them are good depending on what type of brew you want to make (fungal or bacterial). The Compost Tea Manual gives you a very good idea on what types of materials are used for each type of tea.

I have used those guidelines when I started brewing some time ago. Like I said I would go for fine powder instead of granules. I try to " pre-digest" as much as I can when it comes to make Compost Tea. I use powder as fine as 200+ mesh whenever I can . Sometimes even 400+mesh.

CARDBOARD AS INGREDIENT IN COMPOST TEA?
Brett Kacalek asked on 11/4/2002:
As I understood Elaine, cardboard used in compost development helps to foster good fungi conditions. My question was if cardboard was let to sit for awhile in water (in essence to re-pulp) and then added to the compost tea brewing process. would this be beneficial? Seems to be a
logical question based on Elaine's post.
Elaine Ingham replied on 11/4/2002: As long as the bits of paper would go through the sprayer, it would be ok. But I think it would clog the sprayer, because it takes fungi more than the 24 hour tea brew cycle to decompose cellulose. Even an enzyme doesn't usually break cellulose down that fast.

MOLASSES VS. DRY MOLASSES COMPOSITION
From: Jose Luiz M Garcia ([email protected])
Most sites says that it is kind of hard to predict the composItion of molasses, as it varies with location, sugar cane variety, time of the year, type of soil, climate etc… but as a guideline here are some analyses of molasses.
http://www.rhhall.ie/bulletins/molasses_4.htm
http://www.suga-lik.com/molasses/composition.html
http://www.premiermolasses.ie/silage.htm
We can see that it is a good source of Potassium.
This is an analysis of Dry Molasses. http://www.indumel.com.br/port/analise.asp Sorry it is in Portuguese, but it says basically the following :

Dry Molasses composition :
Crude Energy (minimum ) ….3,100 kcal/kg
Moisture ( maximum) ………5 %
Total Sugars ( as inverted sugars ) .50%
Crude Protein (minimum) ……… 2%
Mineral matter (max)……….. 20%
Other carbohidrates (max) …. 23%

Detailed Analysis
Dry Matter (minimum) ………. 95%
Calcium (max) ………………. 7%
Phosphorus (min) ……………. 0.1%
Iron (max ) ………………….. 0.1%
Magnesium (max) …………… 2.5%
Sodium (max) ………………. 1%
Potassium (max) …………….. 8%
Contains microelements Co, Cu, Mn, Zn and Iodine
Nice source of Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium and Iron
MALT vs. SOYBEAN MEAL
Elaine Ingham said: Malt contains a fair number of simple sugars, which gets bacteria growing rapidly, takes down the oxygen, which MAY lead to lack of oxygen, which may lead to anaerobic bacteria (including E. coli and other undesirables) growing. Some anaerobic bacteria appear to take out the beneficial fungi as well
Anyway, back to the soybean... Soybean meal has fewer simple sugars than the malt, so the bacteria don't get going as fast, which means less danger of getting bacteria growing, less danger of anaerobic conditions.
CERTAIN fish preparations appear to do the same thing with respect to suppressing bacterial growth, and thus anaerobic conditions. Could it be that certain fish have more oil that suppress the E. coli? Sure! But under all conditions? NEED DATA!!!!!!
MILL MUD
Scott Alexander (Australia) replied:
>Elaine Ingham said, “Great stuff, mill mud, as long as it does not go anaerobic”.
If it came from an organic sugar cane grower I'd agree but farmers around here use lots of chemicals and inorganic fertilisers so I wouldn't consider adding it to my CT or compost heap. I've seen some daylily growers use too much of it and eventually kill the plants.

Elaine Ingham replied (11/30/2002):
Good point on the mill mud. It is high in potassium salts generally. You are absolutely correct to caution people about it's use.
Use mill mud as PART OF a compost recipe. It should be classified in the "green" component as long as it is not anaerobic. But you never make your compost from just one kind of green component, no matter what your recipe.
Thank you for the reminder to be cautious.

INGREDIENTS TRIED BUT ELAINE INGHAM DID NOT PARTICULARLY RECOMMEND AS OF 9/6/2002
Plant materials, such as malt, soaked seed, and proteins and sugars, such as milk, yogurt, whey, tofu, soy sauce, Worcestershire sauce, peanut butter, eggs, have all been tried. I have not been really excited about these materials as addition of these other foods during warm periods drove the tea anaerobic. [If you really want to use them,] Maybe in the spring or fall, these things should be tried.

VINEGAR
From: Elaine Ingham ( Feb 12 2003 )
I know that vinegar is used as an herbicide. Vinegar is used as a food resource by some bacteria, and has a direct toxic effect on other microorganisms in the soil. How to determine how much of an effect? Concentration - the greater the concentration of vinegar, the more negative impact, the more dilute, the greater the food resource effect.
YOGURT AND LACTOBACILLI
If you add lactobacilli (yogurt) to a compost tea, would it help it suppress powdery mildew?
Elaine Ingham 4/20/2003 said:
In the little bit of work we did with the SARE grant last year where we established the conditions to allow lactobacillus to grow in the compost teas, there was no suppression of mildew, and E. coli was a problem. Probably no surprise, once you think all these things through. If there was food enough for lactobacilli to grow and therefore use up oxygen, (i.e., the tea brew therefore dropped into the anaerobic range), then E. coli was free to grow too. Mildew did just fine, because the reduced oxygen in the tea kept the competitor fungi and bacteria from growing and anaerobic bacterial growth took out the aerobic fungi.

What about putting milk in compost tea? The concentration of milk has to be so high that it is not economically feasible. But what if you are a dairy farm with waste or spoiled milk? Then maybe it would be reasonable. But we'd have to work out how much milk, and what the inoculum of lactobacilli would need to be.tested.
USE OF OTHER LIVING INGREDIENTS TO MANAGE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS
CROWN GALL and GALL-X
I received a reply on my organic vit list which indicates that Gall-ex , the commercial product, is NOT effective against agrobacterium vitis :-((

Have you seen any successful trials on grapes ?

If there is potential I will definitely take your advice and work with Paul over the winter to find a solution before spring when the existing bacteria once again set to work.

Is there a way to test its effectiveness against this specific strain of agrobacterium over the winter ?

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003, Elaine Ingham said:

I have worked with the person who isolated and tested the bacterium you are interested in. Yes, it should grow in compost tea, and it likes amino sugars. So, reasonably complex sugars should work. A little testing with an SFI lab would tell you which food resource should work best.

For example, bring a tea to Paul at the New York lab. Look at the organisms in the tea (takes about 5 minutes to prep, about 20 minutes to look at the sample to see what's present). Add in the bacterial inoculum, find out what the bacterium looks like. Split the tea into a number of smaller portions, depending on how many foods you want to test. Place a small amount (like one crop of food in a 500 ml container) of the different foods in the containers with the tea and Agrobacterium. Let the samples incubate while you go eat lunch, come back and look at the samples to see whether the Agrobacterium started to grow. Let incubate overnight, and check again.

That way you know what food will feed the organisms. You might want to then test concentration of the food to add - for example, add 2 drops, or 4 drops, or 8 drops of the best food, so you get a better idea of what increasing foods do. When the brew runs out of air overnight, then the organisms won't grow, and you know you added too much food. Or get an oxygen probe and test that way.

OK?


PSEUDOMONAS INOCULUM SUGGESTED TO HELP DEAL WITH POWDERY MILDEW ON STRAWBERRIES

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Tim Livingstone said:

We are using compost tea on Certified Organic Strawberry plants grown in our greenhouse. The plants currently have a good harvest coming on, but we are having trouble with powdery mildew forming on the fruits making a significant portion of them unsaleable. We are able to maintain good control on the leaves using compost tea, but for some reason the fruits are not responding so well. We cannot use a commercial fungicide and are limited on organic sprays listed in Canada. We cannot spray tea on very heavily or we will stain the berries giving a rather large washing job!

If anyone has ever encountered this problem and could suggest a possible solution, we would be most grateful.

Elaine Ingham said:

What is your recipe? If the fruit is having problems, then we aren't using up the sugars on the fruit surface properly.

So, a Pseudomonas inoculum would be what you need. Can you check with me about what the inocula near-by would be?
_______________________________________________________________________
FUNGI – BASIDIOMYCETE CULTURES

Elaine Ingham said:
Please, don't go spending a lot of money for cultures of basidiomycetes. It just isn't worth it, unless you have a specific need. If you need to take out termites, or fire ants, or some other insect pest, it is best to get the fungi from your compost. In the case of insect pests, please go visit a website called, www.fungiperfecti.com. Paul Stametz has some amazing fungal isolates, both ascomycete and basidiomycete types. Enjoy!

The source material should be restricted to the compost, which includes both the organisms we extract and the soluble nutrients we extract. Please recognize that there are both in the compost -- vermicompost can often have all the sugar you need in it. Which is why it drives me nuts when people who don't know anything about compost say that you can't put soluble nutrients into compost tea. Compost has soluble nutrients in it, so if you say no soluble nutrients in compost tea, that means no compost in compost tea.

BEAUVERIA BASSIANA
Beauveria bassiana is a common soilborne fungus that occurs worldwide. It attacks a wide range of both immature and adult insects. Besides silkworm, the extensive list of hosts includes such important pests as whiteflies, aphids, grasshoppers, termites, Colorado potato beetle, Mexican bean beetle, Japanese beetle, boll weevil, cereal leaf beetle, bark beetles, lygus bugs, chinch bug, fire ants, European corn borer, codling moth, and Douglas fir tussock moth. Natural enemies, such as lady beetles, are susceptible too, and it has even been found infecting the lungs of wild rodents, and the nasal passages of humans. There are many different strains of the fungus that exhibit considerable variation in virulence, pathogenicity and host range. It occurs in the soil as a saprophyte.

For a fact sheet on this fungus, see: http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/kyf410.html

UNHELPFUL MICROORGANISMS TO AVOID ADDING TO YOUR TEA:
Don't add any actinomycetes, or more properly, actinobacteria to your tea, or compost. They are really bad news on mycorrhizal fungi. You need to get the beneficial fungi in the compost and tea. Streptomyces do not build soil structure very well, and they compete with the beneficial fungi, often keeping the good guys from being able to grow.

 

[Dignan]

Great posts Scay Beez!

I think you might be mistaken. I thought that she added yucca after the brew cycle is done. All the books I've read add seaweed from the beginning because it is a good surface for fungi to attach themselves to. Adding things after a brew cycle is to ensure that there is enough food for microorganisms in the soil. I always add yucca after the brew or it can make things go anaerobic will all the foam (foam is good and bad).

Yeah, I shouldn't have said that she "always says" because I've only come across a couple things she's said regarding that. Here's one:

http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/g00030.asp

"Let the brew sit until the compost is pretty much settled out, 10 to 20 minutes, then strain it into the other bucket or directly into your sprayer. You'll have about 2 1/2 gallons of tea. If you want, this is the time to add foliar micronutrients, like kelp or rock dust. Use the tea right away, within the hour if possible."

Either way, it doesn't seem like a crucial detail. I was just curious.

 

[BurnOne]

this is a great thread. . . one we thoroughly enjoy and have only this to offer. . . we have one of them fancy tea brewers about the size of a laundry tub and holds about 20 gal. . . it has a fancy pump/aerator and it works good enough. . . however we would not advise folks to purchase one especially when home items are so available. . . anything from a 5 gallon bucket up will do depending on how much watering you need and a good med quality aquarium air pump with long airlines and a stone held down by a weight of some sort. . .
We use guano of choice, some molasses, and whatever else you need into a nylon sock and hang in the stream of bubbles. And let the fun begin,. . . the one thing not to do is use straight tap water. . .the chlorine kills. . .therefore we allow tap water to sit for 24 or more hours first. . . you can get active microbials from a hardware store that sells septic additives. . . . one can keep adding brewing material and de-chlorinated water and the live bacteria keep on thriving. . .
We are still experimenting with various formulas and the results. . . now back to your regularly scheduled program. . . .

Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to knock this thread in any way, shape or form.

The question is... Does all this information make better grows?
Is anyone using this knowledge?
Are there any test grows going on in side by side comparisons? Say with guano teas and kelp?
I've gone to extremes in my past grows only to return to tried and true methods. Diverting from the basics never paid off for me.
And does all this increase yields by more than 5% to 10%? I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just asking if it does. Seems to me like a lot of work.

But then again, the title of this thread IS "Fanatic".

Burn1

 

[Suby]

Hi Guys,

I can tell it's spring there are more posts or tea brewing.
I personally though 1000$ for a pro brewer was a bit much but luckily my pool filter needed replacing and the main basin holds maybe 50Gal so I feel a DIY coming on
From the start you need kelp, molasses and a nitrogen/protein source, I prefer rain water but well water is also fine by me.


SB nice posts, I have a backlog of reading to do, for now I'm chilling in the sun and working on converting an old refrigerator into a grow box.
God that has been fun, piece by piece for the last few days.

B1, yeah man this thread is definately getting fanatic, I love that it is overloaded in information though, I was the kid in class always asking "BUT WHY", it seems with organics most peeps don't know why or how.
Plus it's alot easier digging through this thread then googling all kinds of shit and catching sites wanting to sell you something.


As a Bonus we can chill and say Wassup!.

I know I've been slacking in contributions lately, I have underestimated how pleasantly distracting my new little sprout was going to be .

Peace
Suby

 

[vonforne]

Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to knock this thread in any way, shape or form.

The question is... Does all this information make better grows?
Is anyone using this knowledge?
Are there any test grows going on in side by side comparisons? Say with guano teas and kelp?
I've gone to extremes in my past grows only to return to tried and true methods. Diverting from the basics never paid off for me.
And does all this increase yields by more than 5% to 10%? I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just asking if it does. Seems to me like a lot of work.

But then again, the title of this thread IS "Fanatic".

Burn1

Master Burn1,

Is anyone using this knowledge?

Yes

Are there any test grows going on in side by side comparisons? Say with guano teas and kelp?

Yes


Here are some things I have been working on.

General soil construction:

Organic peat moss(4-44 qt bags), Composted Organic peat (1 44 qt. bag), Worm castings (fresh 20 lbs), Mushroom compost ( 2 40 lb bags), perlite until I could plunge my hand in easily.

Mixed throughly....dry. Inoculated with compost tea

1st inoculate tea- 45 ml humic acid, 60 ml liquid seaweed, 60 ml fish emulsion, 1 handful worm castings in panty hose, organic molasses because it contains more micro-nutrients. Brew for 48 hours.
I used tepid water that had been aerated for 48 hours.

Add tea and let sit, turning daily. When mix has transpired H20........


2nd inoculate tea- 45 ml fulvic acid, 60 ml liquid seaweed, 1 handful worm castings in panty hose, organic molasses

1st stage soil......

Measure out 25 gallons of soil and add

50 TBS N ferts.....40 Mexican High N and 10 Supertea dry.
24 TBS of Indonesion P guano
50 Dolomite Lime (powdered) @ per gallon of soil mix according to Master Burn1

I then mixed it dry......very well.

Transplanted.

Here are the kids after 1 week in the soil. they are 3 weeks old. Hill Temple Collective Sunshine #2 and there are some Blueberry X Sivas mixed in there also with 3 Stonehedges.

The HTC's and a group shot for good measure to exhibit the good health of all the plants.






I then brewed an alfalfa tea. I used pellets and ground them up in a blender.








Here is the tea:

it is alfalfa...loose in the bucket so the soil microbes can eat it up. the tea also has 30 ml liquid seaweed and worm castings in a panty hose.

I removed some after 24 hrs and used as a light foliar. 30 ml to one quart.

After that I took one half of the tea and began preparing my 2nd stage soil for transplant in a couple of weeks. and added to the soil...mixed well.

added more water and added 5 TBS castings to the panty hose, 2 table spoons of alfalfa and molasses.

Re-brewed









I started to loose the tea a couple of days ago to aernobic bacteria even though I was doing a water exchange.

I used it on my outside garden.

I'm now re-brewing a new tea of :
5 TBS castings in hose
3 TBS alfalfa in hose
45 ml of liquid seaweed
30ml of humic acid
3 TBS of Yucca extract (like in LK)






This will be used as a foliar and at the end of that time added to the awaiting soil mixture.

they will receive fresh clean water at the next watering. I will not start using a tea in the soil until the third watering.


I have taken a great amount of notes. These are just seedlings. I will repeat the same make up on the clones in the next round. This go around is to see how they receive the soil mixture and foliars.

Hows that for an ongoing experiment?

Any tips Master Burn1? And I have always followed your advice on 2 count them 2 dolomite per gallon of soil mixture.

V-man Jedi Master HaHa!

 

[BurnOne]

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout.
Great work V. I'll keep an eye on your grow reports.

Burn1

 

[vonforne]

Here are the Kids after a morning foliar. today

with this tea.





Here are the kids...notice the up turned leaves. some are showing tip burn(from the soil mix) but they are only 3+ weeks old. I think they are recieving it well.










And I will LST but I have followed Master Subys advice and scaled down a bit. I'am currently under closet construction. I'm a little behind.


V-man
Jedi Master

 

[vonforne]

Also, I had not planned on bringing those kids out until after I had brought the ole 1K back online in the closet. I wanted them to be beefed up a bit. But when You questioned our work I had no choice but to come clean with it all.

V-man

 

[Relik]

V-man, they look very good, definitely shows the power of organics!

Keep it green!

 

[jaykush]

Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to knock this thread in any way, shape or form.

The question is... Does all this information make better grows?
Is anyone using this knowledge?
Are there any test grows going on in side by side comparisons? Say with guano teas and kelp?
I've gone to extremes in my past grows only to return to tried and true methods. Diverting from the basics never paid off for me.
And does all this increase yields by more than 5% to 10%? I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just asking if it does. Seems to me like a lot of work.

But then again, the title of this thread IS "Fanatic".

Burn1

oh yea lots of people are using this info. ive gotten countless reply's for the info in this thread.

as for increasing yields, i for one am for quality over quantity. an increase in yield is always a plus but its deff not my main goal.

i know what your saying though. somtimes too much is just too much, and you have to go back to the basics. which everyone should never forget.


Vman: damn looking good looking good. thats what i like to see. top notch healthy plants keep us updated.

 

[vonforne]

Having this thread is a little hide away for us. On the outside....well you get my meaning. It is a place for the advanced peeps to gather. Most of this stuff scares most people into not posting in here because they are intimidated by all the info. We do not get the questions "Why is my plant dying it said MG organic was good for them" You know what I mean.

V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

I LOVE this thread

I LOVE this thread

Man I love this thread! So many new ideas of things to try pop into me brain as I read it!

I keep a compost tea brewing all the time. I sort of use the "sample with replacement" method. Taking tea and adding back rain water.

As I read about new ingredients to try I just add them to the brew...a tbsp or so at a time. Every few days I'll splash in a bit of molasses for food. I just started adding rice bran to the mix today.

There is always a nice layer of foam on the top of teas so it must be good! I don't have any Cannabis to test the tea on, but everything else in the garden LOVES the stuff. I usually dilute it 10:1 with dechlorinated and or rain water.

I make fermented teas using weeds. I usually use the 2 litre milk jugs stuffed with green weeds and cover with water. I let it brew for a week or so and shake it every day. I leave the cap on loosely as some gas is released in the process.

I also use this method with dried porphyra seaweed to make seaweed teas.

These fermented teas seem to be loved by the garden plants, when the cannabis is old enough for these beverages they'll get them!


Peace

 

[Suby]

Honestly there is no place on the web that has this much discussion about brewing organic teas, I seached and this compilation although a daunting task to read is very complete.

Vman that is a nice project you have going there, with head like that you know the teas is of awesome quality, I hadn't though of crushing my alfalfa meal in the blender, I'll have to try that.

S

 

[Suby]

suby,, how's your bunker coming along?

wassup smurfman!

No more bunker grow, the bunker had a serious problem with neighbours of the wrong kind so that's over.
What I have been working on is a fridge grow setup that a friend of mine wants to try.
This project looks less productive but security is much better this way, it's hard cramping all that shit in such a small space.
If you guys had a choice would you remove the insulation in the refrigerator to make it easier to cool or would keep it and run a heavier fan so as to keep it soundproof?

Peace
S

 

[Dignan]

I use organic methods as a way of simplifying my growing. Any increase in yield is a bonus, and any decrease in yield is not a big deal to me. Any increase in quality is also a bonus, but not necessary... I'm happy with the quality I get right now.

So organics for me is to simplify... studying organics and soil biology, etc. just comes from me wanting to understand how the Universe works.

Awesome thread. Awesome group of organic growers here at ICMag, period.

Dig

 

[vonforne]

Honestly there is no place on the web that has this much discussion about brewing organic teas, I seached and this compilation although a daunting task to read is very complete.

Vman that is a nice project you have going there, with head like that you know the teas is of awesome quality, I hadn't though of crushing my alfalfa meal in the blender, I'll have to try that.

S

Suby, Thanks for the props. It is going out to all of the Organic growers who are always here to help out. You being the best of the best. Thanks for all the tips and tricks that you provide everyone.

I have been working on this in secret lately. That is why my posting slowed down. We of the OFC have been talking and talking and I decided to put it all to the test. Providing the tests would take years to try everything in here. And B1 was prodding us as to why we were doing all this and insinuated that we were "Fanatics".....not us! LOL

So, I have kept it simple. I have combined some old soil mixing tricks with a couple of added things.....being simple also just a needed addition IMO.

There are certain things I'm looking for.....the growth hormone, triaconatol in the alfalfa, that is best obtained with a foliar feeding.

I buy my alfalfa in 50# bags at the feed store for 11.00. and grind it up in the El cheapo blender. Make sure you wear a dust mask and do it in the garage. Your wife would not be happy about the dust that comes with it. LOL

As far as the Kelp thing. I purchased a hundred sheet package of sushi wraps today for cheap. It is dried so I will make my own with the El Cheapo blender. I believe I will get better results from it since it is food grade and fresh.

And about the frig set-up. I think you are right with leaving the insulation in for sound proofing. Unless you can put it some where that it will not be heard by un wanted ears.

And as you can tell I did take your advice and go closet growing.

Dignan, As I have been studying on the workings of the soil food web. And as I find that the more I understand....the easier it gets. No matter what you are using to grow. It all has its place. Everything in the earth has its place. Without one you would not have the other.

I interpret "simpler" as having a better understanding of how it all fits together.

And this thread is Subys brainchild. He is the main reason all of us have gathered here to trade information for the advancement of Organic growing.

To Suby,



V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Hi V

You said you are going to use the sushi wraps? I can get those here too! However, I thought that they are called nori seaweed? is it the same as kelp?? Now I am using a seaweed called porphyra...but if the sushi wraps are better I'll buy them!

Peace

ThaiPhoon

 

[vonforne]

8.2 Nori or purple laver (Porphyra spp.)

This is the purplish-black seaweed often seen wrapped around a small handful of rice in sushi. It comes largely from cultivation in Japan, the Republic of Korea and China. In Japan's list of products from marine culture, nori has the highest production, followed by oysters, yellowtails and wakame, the last being another seaweed used as food.

Nori grows as a very thin, flat, reddish blade (Figure 47), and is found in most temperate intertidal zones around the world, illustrated by its history of being eaten by the indigenous peoples of northwest America and Canada, Hawaii, New Zealand and parts of the British Isles.

FIGURE 47
Porphyra umbilicalis

J.M. JONES

FIGURE 48
Net cultivation of Porphyra

R.J. KING

It is among the most nutritious seaweeds, with a protein content of 30-50 percent, and about 75 percent of that is digestible. Sugars are low (0.1 percent), and the vitamin content very high, with significant amounts of Vitamins A, C, niacin and folic acid, but the shelf life of vitamin C can be short in the dried product. During processing to produce the familiar sheets of nori, most salt is washed away, so the sodium content is low. The characteristic taste of nori is caused by the large amounts of three amino acids: alanine, glutamic acid and glycine.

V