Organic Fanatic Collective

[ThaiPhoon]

Hmm thats great info V. The porphyra I get is not in sheets. Its spun into a ball type thing.. I should take a photo. But It does change the water to a nice dark purple color when I make the tea or extract. Is that what you do V? I just pulled bits of seaweed off of the ball and put it in water. Do you shred it in a blender and add the powder to the soil?

 

[vonforne]

Hey Thai, Here is a link for you. It gives all the various seaweeds and their uses. It kind of old but stacked with all kinds of info.

Our seaweeds are the same or in the same family. You must be from Canada. It is harvested of the coast of BC...right? Mine is a very dark blueish color...very similar to Maxi-crop but a slightly different smell. Its hard to describe. I add tepid water and blend...that is correct. Strain and spray as a foliar. The one I use has three amino acids. alanine, glutamic acid and glycine.

Amino acids are the most essential element in biology and metabolic functions.

V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Great V,

I can't see the link...

I let the porphyra and water mixture sit for a few days. I don't know if it makes any difference...lol. I am not in Canada, I used to live there, but I am actually in Thailand. Here are some pics of what I got...



There is the EM I use for making Bokashi. Old beer. Dolomite. crushed eggshells, used coffee grounds. SugarCane Compost. bat guano and the porphyra. It was sold in a 200g bag, It was about 3 us dollars for the bag.

 

[vonforne]

http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4765e/y4765e00.HTM

I forgot to paste the damn thing. sorry.

Thailand, nice place, it has been many years since I have been there.
Even better. I know that our porphyra is probable the same.

V

 

[ThaiPhoon]

OK thanks Vonforne. That link is very informative! Does making into a powder before adding to the water make any difference? I have also broken some up and just mixed it into some compost. I guess it would break down a lot faster if it is powder....

 

[vonforne]

I have found, that if you brew your own teas that just adding it to the brewing tea is best. The micro-organisms love that stuff. You could also add it to your compost pile but you would have to have a larger amount than I use. But living in Thailand you do.

I have blended it and run it through the blender with water only. It comes dry and is a lot easier to deal with until you want to use it.

V

 

[jaykush]

great link V i like what it says in section 9.1

thaiphoon i haven't had thai weed in a little while, some of my fav stuff.

 

[vonforne]

Finally there is the question, are seaweed extracts an economically attractive alternative to NPK fertilizers? Perhaps not when used on their own, but when used with NPK fertilizers they improve the effectiveness of the fertilizers, so less can be used, with a lowering of costs. Then there are always those who prefer an "organic" or "natural" fertilizer, especially in horticulture, so seaweed extracts probably have a bright future.

I like this one.

v

 

[vonforne]

Glutamate is a key molecule in cellular metabolism

However, alanine can play a role in substrate recognition or specificity, particularly in interactions with other non-reactive atoms such as carbon.

Two of our amino acids in the porphyra.

V

 

[pumpkin2006]

Hi guys I'm very new to this site, but I've been reading this thread for about a month now. I've learned so much and want to thank you all. I'm have a lot of information that I've gotten from compost_teas over at yahoo that I want to repost. I'm going to do it in order of the actually article, its about 100 pages so it'll take a while.

I do hydroponics but I also have a degree in sustainable agriculture and am a bit proponent of organics. I just see the hydro world as a symbiosis of technology and nature. Aquaponics is my next hurdle to leap; combining the "sacred" (nature) and sophisticated (technology).

But enough babble, heres some good stuff:

MICRONIZED COMPOST

First, what is micronizing?

From: Jose Luiz M Garcia

The only way I know to micronize anything is to get that thing thru a Micronizer. A Micronizer is a special type of mill that not only grinds but also separates those very small and light particles that can float in the air by means of specially designed air flows devices sometimes using vortex type separators. I don´t believe that screening alone would separate particles as small as 1,000 mesh on a commercial scale. That would be ideal but too difficult to achieve in practical terms.

Jose Garcia said:

I did a google search on "micronized compost"and found the following references :
http://cranfordinc.com/Micronized.htm
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/recyclestore/detail.asp?PRODUCTID=1374
http://csanr.wsu.edu/programs/compost/Cc9.pdf
http://www.compostfarm.com/supplements.htm

There is an article by Dr Elaine in this one
http://www.jgpress.com/BCContents/2001/July01.html

http://www.jgpress.com/BCArticles/2001/020156.html

I wonder what happens with microbial life after micronization? Unfortunately there was no access to Dr Elaine´s article on that site. She was explaining exactly what happens after micronization.

A further post from Jose Luiz Garcia:

Micronization does destroy microbial life in the study I have seen. It also decreases nitrogen content but one has to see the picture as a whole and not only pay attention to numbers and figures. Today with micronized compost (even though with reduced life and reduced nitrogen) I can use it in my drip irrigation system with incredible results. With regular compost even though with a higher microbial life and higher N content I could never use it thru the irrigation system. You lose from one side so you can gain from the other. I still believe that Micronized Compost is a terrific product that allows you to make several things that regular compost can´t.

But that was not my original question. The original question was : Have any of you used Micronized Compost to make Compost tea ? That can be added directly in the tank. No need for using a bag. You can use say Micronized compost even as a food source directly in the tank and then use regular compost for microbial life if you will.

Reply from Elaine Ingham:

Micronized compost has not ever been shown to contain the organisms you require to suppress disease, retain nutrients, cycle nutrients back into a plant available form, decompose toxins in the soil, or build soil structure so water use can be reduced, roots will grow deeper into soil, and reduce erosion.

24-hour, aerobic compost tea contains the wonderfully diverse set of beneficial organisms form the compost, in an ACTIVE, living form that can grow and glue themselves to your leaf surfaces very rapidly, suppressing, competing with, inhibiting and consuming the disease organisms that come to land on your leaves or root systems.

Active organisms - that's the clue.

Micronized compost does not contain those organisms (unless you add them back with a compost tea).

But, micronized compost contains the nutrients and food resources from the compost, so if that is why you want compost, as a food resource for your organisms, then micronized compost is great to add as foods for your critters in your soil or on your leaf surfaces. All the nutrients your compost organisms need!

NUTRIENTS – IMPORTANT KEY TO MAKING BACTERIAL OR FUNGAL DOMINATED TEA

Excerpt from posts from Elaine Ingham, dates unknown:
Nutrients that we add to the compost tea brews should be differentiated from the source material [compost, the source of the micro-organisms], because these nutrients are not necessary except to alter the bacterial versus fungal dominance of the tea, and to add nutrients the plant needs.


REMINDER: Always read the label on ingredients. Elaine Ingham suggests to avoid all preservatives when selecting tea ingredients. What do preservatives do? They kill bacteria and fungi.

Currently Most Favored Ingredients to Promote Particular Organisms

SIMPLE sugars feed bacteria (see details on sugar below – bacteria need little encouragement)

Complex sugars feed both bacteria and fungi (see more details on sugars below)

Kelp provides micronutrients for your plants, and the microorganisms, and it is a SURFACE (also called substrate) for the fungi to grow on.

Fish emulsion feeds mostly bacteria

Fish hydrolysate has the fish oil in it as well as the simpler proteins, and so feeds FUNGI more than bacteria

Hay is often a source of protozoa (organic, unsprayed hay), as worm compost is frequently. You can pour the hay water on separately from the tea, or use the worm compost in making tea.

Humic acids are the most selective just for fungi. It is important to learn more about them, because I gather there are differences among humic acid products that can affect your results. I have sent out requests for more info from some list members, and if I get replies, I’ll add the info here. See what has been gathered to date, included below.


A LIST OF HUMAN FOODS THAT CONTAIN LARGE AMOUNTS OF SUGAR
Barley malt or malted barley
Beet sugar
Black strap molasses
Brown rice sugar
Brown rice syrup
Brown sugar
Cane sugar
Cane syrup
Cane syrup solids
Cane juice
Caramel
Caramel coloring
Confectioners' sugar
Corn sweetener
Corn syrup
Corn syrup solids
Crystalline fructose
Date sugar
Dextrin (a soluble carb from starch, used as an adhesive)
Dextrose (form of glucose)
Disaccharide
Fructose (Commonly found in fruits and honey-the sweetest of the simple sugars.)
Fructo-oligosaccharides
Fruit juice concentrate (Contains more sugar than fruit juice.)
Galactose (A white, crystalline, simple sugar derived from milk sugar)
Glucose (Found in fruit and animal tissue.)
Glycerin
Granulated sugar
Hexitol
High-fructose corn syrup
Honey
Invert sugar
Lactose (Sugar derived from milk.)
Levulose
Malt
Maltodextrin
Maltose (A white, crystalline, water-soluble sugar, made from starch.)
Maple sugar
Maple syrup
Microcrystalline cellulose
Molasses
Natural sweeteners
Polydextrose
Powdered sugar
Raisin juice
Raisin syrup
Raw sugar
Rice syrup
Simple syrup
Sorghum
Sucanat (the freshly extracted sugar cane juice is evaporated with only water removed.)
Sucrose (White table sugar; 50% glucose and 50% fructose.)
Sugar cane syrup
Syrup
Table sugar
Turbinado sugar
Unrefined sugar
White sugar

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

The information below delves into more detail on various possible ingredients and as much as we could begin to gather about their properties.
SUGAR VS MOLASSES
QUESTION: In adding sugars to a brewing solution, will any sugar work (pure white cane sugar)? Could one use honey?
In my experience, white sugar tends to get you more of the not-so-great bacterial species than say molasses, or honey. You need a diversity of food resources, and white sugar basically is just about pure sucrose. Not feeding a wide range of bacteria there. (Elaine Ingham)
Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:48 am
MALT VS MOLASSES
Food sources vary in their ability to grow fungi.
The list below shows sugars, from lowest to highest ability to grow fungi, and points out they are less helpful than e.g. soy sauce. If you compare
white sugar (a simple sugar) to
brown sugar to
unsulfured molasses to
malt to
soy sauce.
As far as sugars go, Elaine reported in this post that the least helpful sugar in growing fungi is white sugar (NOT helpful), and the most helpful SUGAR is reported to be malt, but none are as effective as, say, soy sauce. [NOTE: This is for comparative purposes – don’t read it as saying that you must run out and get soy sauce for your tea.]
Why? The key is structural complexity of the sugars and proteins in these materials. [NOTE: Remember that fungi are better at breaking down complex sugars than bacteria.]
Molasses has some fungal foods, but malt has more fungal food, but less fungal food than soy sauce.

 

[Smurf]

Welcome pumkin,.. I like using ewc for increased protozoa count in teas mainly because I use hay for bedding in the worm bins. I have yet to try the soaking hay method but I've seen a few of the local farmers with their 50 gal drums soaking hay who all highly recommend it... they add it to their tea just prior to applying.
Good luck with the aquaponics.

cheers fellas

 

[jaykush]

welcome pumpkin to the ofc. thats a great list of sugars. im sure everyone can find at least one thing on that list around them.

 

[humble1]

this thread has inspired me to start a tea bubbler in my conservatory!
suby, i would remove the insulation versus larger fan. cooling is essential and with that small of a volume a smaller axial fan will be enough to exchange the air regularly.

 

[pumpkin2006]

If your like me and you always want more, here:

FISH HYDROLYSATE VS. BRAGGS

NOTE: What is Braggs? Quote from a website selling it: "Braggs All Purpose Seasoning" is made of soybeans and water only. There are no additives, preservatives, chemicals, coloring agents, or added sodium. Braggs is not fermented or heated and is easily digestible.
Elaine Ingham, post dated 3 February 2003): said
Bragg's is right there with soy sauce. I actually like fish hydrolysate better.

FISH OIL VS. FISH EMULSION

Not all parts of the world have access to fish hydrolysate as an ingredient. What can you use? See Mike Benton’s note (Mike is from South Africa)

Dear Doc Elaine,
In a reply to a question on fish emulsion you suggested that fish oil would be more fungally suitable.I have now managed to get some from one of the large fishing companies.I am waiting for more info from them but it smells like cod-liver oil from when I was a kid.My question is how much should one use safely.I know that this is a piece of string type question but we were using 2.5-3 liter of fish emulsion without blowing the DO2.Could we then use as much fish oil,perhaps?We have about two and a half times the water volume of air, available at the diffuser so we have fairly good aeration.Typical reciepe used to be 20 lt compost ,10 lt castings,2.5/3
liters of some or all of the following,molasses.humic acid,soaked kelp flakes,and Seagro, a fish emulsion.This is on 1200 liters. Will the fish oil also cancel out the sunflower oil used to control the foam now? Please please please tell us that you are trying to get a lab going here,in South Africa .Without you guys any other tests are meaningless.All we do is check the smell and see the results. Or at least tell us that you will be coming back soon )
LEONARDITE:
Jose Luiz M Garcia (9/9/2002) said:
Leonardite (oxidized lignite) is the raw material from which soluble humates are extracted. They are very low in fulvic and humic acids. I would not recommend to use them but to use its extract or soluble humates. In case you still want to use Leonardite you should dissolve it in water and throw out the insoluble portion. You can add a little lye to improve extraction of the humates from the raw leonardite.

Tom Piatkowski (9/9/2002) said:
Buyers beware! In the market for humic acids / leonardites, you almost always get what you pay for!
Many leonardite products on the market are tailings from coal operations or exhibit very poor levels of quality control. There is more to leonardite than just humic acid. Dependent upon the source one can expect products to have different salt indexes. The quality of the actual humic acids can vary tremendously between deposits.
Another aspect to humic acids / leonardite that one should be aware of is they can be a bit difficult to handle. Leonardite will not readily dissolve in water. By its very nature the large carbon molecules are only soluble in pH's above 7.0.
What manufacturers have done in response to this is to process the leonardite or humic extracts so they are more friendly to the end user. The problem is most of the time, in doing so, they degrade the quality of the product.

Is there a difference between humic acid derived from leonardite and humic acid derived from other sources? What exactly are the other sources? What chemicals to avoid in extraction? Is there a difference between leonardite from mine tailings and leonardite from “compressed peat”? What is compressed peat? When the leonardite’s humic acid is extracted, does it remain soluble only when it’s at a high pH? What happens if the tea has a lower pH?

Elaine Ingham said: Putting raw leonardite in your tea doesn't do a thing except destroy your pump, because the microbes can't chew through all the other stuff in leonardite (the pre-coal mineral that contains - relatively speaking - high amounts of humic acids) to get to the humic acids in a 24 hour period.

OK, SO I SHOULDN’T PUT LEONARDITE IN MY TEA?
Elaine Ingham said:
Putting raw leonardite in your tea doesn’t do a thing except destroy your pump, because the microbes can't chew through all the other stuff in leonardite (the pre-coal mineral that contains - relatively speaking - high amounts of humic acids) to get to the humic acids in a 24 hour period.
In the soil, the microbes can't do much to leonardite in even a few weeks, although maybe in a couple months some benefit of selecting for humic acid that use organisms would occur. (Fungi would be needed to decompose the leonardite.)
But adding to the tea? Not helping much..
Elaine Ingham said:
Anyone else have a favorite humic acid? If we've tested it, and I can share the data, I'll let you know how it did in testing. .
CORRECTION - HUMIC ACID AMOUNTS IN BREWING MANUAL
From: ElaineIngham said (10-30-2002):
The amounts in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual were for the Microb-Brewer (50 gal machines), and I agree that the amounts are much too high.
The next edition of the CTBM will say that manufacturers directions should be followed relative to amounts of foods to be put in the machines. More food should be added in the fall, winter and spring during cold and cooler months, while minimal amounts of foods should be used in the summer.

Temperature makes a great deal of difference.

HUMICS FROM WORM COMPOST

T. Dodge asked:
Dr. Ingham has mentioned a firm in Australia extracting humics from worm compost for commercial purpose/scale. What’s the name of that company?

The company is Tryton, based in New South Wales.

INCOMPATIBILITY BETWEEN CANO3 AND HUMIC ACID:
Chris Reid said:
Tim Kiphart mentioned an incompatibility problem between humic acid and CaNO3, or Ca. Mike Harvey said he didn't know of anything.

The bottle of 21 per cent humic acid (Bio Hume from Fertrell) I have contains a specific warning not to mix it with CaNO3. No explanation.

David Loring said:
Tim - I mixed some humic acid with Calcium Chloride solution and it made a gel. I'm not sure what happened but I think that might have been the reason for the warning. I tried adding humic acid to a Sodium Chloride solution and no gel was formed so it probably has to do with the Ca double plus

Some people are adding calcium nitrate to their soil to help improve Cal: Mag ratio under Albrecht –type soil balancing, so it might become relevant if the desire were to apply them and spray them on together.
HUMIC ACID PRODUCTS
Key qualities: Seem to be the source of the humic acid, the percent humic acid, the way the humic acid was extracted, what else is in it besides humic acid (fulvic acid?).

Dan Lynch asked:
Does anyone have comments based on tested CT on either of these humic products?

Sp-85 from http://www.teravita.com/Products/Products.htm

and Humisolve USA from http://www.humic.com/

I have some of both and wonder if I should just mix them together in my next batch or if one was superior for fungal growth. Also how much to use per 10 gallons?

Jose Luiz Garcia responded on 10/31/02:
Both are extracted using either NaOH (sodium hydroxide) or KOH (potassium hydroxide) and therefore both are highly alkaline products. Please take that into consideration for pH purposes. as you know fungi does not like alkaline environments. (“FEEDBACK: IS THIS AN ISSUE?). Both are similar products being Lignite water soluble alkaline extracts. What one needs to understand is that those humic products can vary from batch to batch even in the same brand depending on the ore they utilize for the extraction process.
Regarding the quantity to use, I believe that the pH will tell you the maximum quantity you should use. You will have to play around with a pH meter to see how they affect pH. I generally use 150 to 200 grams to 1,000 liters. FEEDBACK: CAN PH BE USED TO DETERMINE MAX?

Jose


It is timely that you have raised this issue.
I have been using Nutritechs humic acid, this is a humic acid that has been extracted using Potassium Hydroxide against an insoluble humic acid. This process allows the humics to be soluble and has a resulting pH of about 8. Has this one been tested?? It sounds like it may not be a great food source for fungi. (don’t have sender name)
Elaine's reply - Nutritech products are problematical for me. They always say SFI has tested their products, but won't give out the data on the product. Nutritech won't give SFI permission to give the data out. It is their data, they paid for the testing to be done. So, all I can say is, you need to insist on seeing the data before you believe the salesman.

Might I add that most of the people giving information have lab tests done on a regular basis to see their bio-counts and do nutrient analysis on their teas. Most of them are either scientists or do very large scale mixes; I'm talking 200+ gallons of compost tea at a time.

Hopefully you guys find some of this useful. Some of it is kinda, ehhh, but there is gold lined between.

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Hi Pumpkin, those are great posts!

Can you tell what is going on in the tea by the type and/or amount of foam it makes? The reason I ask is because I have observed many different types of foam, from white frothy stuff to greasy looking thick brown bubbly stuff. Some times when I check the tea there is very little foam other times there is foam coming out of the bucket. Since I leave my teas brewing all the time I must be observing some kind of cycle. Possibly a good thing. It could be that the different foams represent different organisms growing...? If so then the soil is getting all kinds of wonderful new life!

Peace
I Love this thread!

 

[pumpkin2006]

Hi Pumpkin, those are great posts!

Can you tell what is going on in the tea by the type and/or amount of foam it makes? The reason I ask is because I have observed many different types of foam, from white frothy stuff to greasy looking thick brown bubbly stuff. Some times when I check the tea there is very little foam other times there is foam coming out of the bucket. Since I leave my teas brewing all the time I must be observing some kind of cycle. Possibly a good thing. It could be that the different foams represent different organisms growing...? If so then the soil is getting all kinds of wonderful new life!

Peace
I Love this thread!

Hi Thai

I think there a number of factors here. Are you always using the aeration devices? Is the volume of water always the same? Are the ingredients the same?

I don't know for a fact, but I would imagine more fugal based teas would produce a different looking/smelling tea than a bacteria based tea.

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Pumpkin,

I take a very unscientific approach to my tea right now. I usually add the same sort of ingredients every other day sort of thing. There is always aeration! I have a power head in there, and an airpump throwing air in through the venturi spout of the powerhead as a backup. I don't have a "teabag" and sometimes the powerhead get plugged full of organic goodness. Hence the main reason for adding the airpump.

Here's what is in my tea, these have been added sometimes more than once over the past 6 weeks or so...I also practice the sample with replacement method.
-rice bran-bat guano-sugar cane compost-porphyra extract- morning glory extract- stale beer- bits of seaweed(porphyra again)- coconut milk*- earthworm compost - fermented human urine- soy sauce- homemade fish emulsion- molasses- rotten mangoes-bananas hmm I think thats all...anyways the plants eat it up!

*I noticed after I added the coconut milk the foam went away for a while, but it came back within 12 hours...

The reason I leave the tea brewing is because I can't use all of it at once and I don't want to waste it!

 

[pumpkin2006]

-rice bran-bat guano-sugar cane compost-porphyra extract- morning glory extract- stale beer- bits of seaweed(porphyra again)- coconut milk*- earthworm compost - fermented human urine- soy sauce- homemade fish emulsion- molasses- rotten mangoes-bananas hmm I think thats all...anyways the plants eat it up!

I'm gonna have to meditate on that... soy sauce = thumbs up, sugar can = thumbs down. I would ditch it, its all sucrose; as I posted in that information before, the good stuff likes complex carbohydrates; that being said, it makes sense because one of the bi-products of photosynthesis is polysaccharides which simply is a complex carb, this is what the fungi are feeding off of.

I would be willing to bet if your just eyeballing your mixtures, thats a reason for different reactions on different brews.

 

[vonforne]

thai, I have discontinued using a powerhead........

powerhead get plugged full of organic goodness.

For that reason I discontinued using it. Now it is not for the non-living organic matter that i did this....it is for the LIVING microbial population. As the organism are sucked through the powerhead....they are destroyed. Thus giving you a smaller population to work with inside the environment that we are trying to create.

V

Hello Pumpkin, Welcome to the OFC. Nice information. Keep it coming.

 

[pumpkin2006]

Nice information. Keep it coming.

Yes sir!

YUCCA
Dan Lynch, said: (10/3/2003)

Why use yucca?

It is a documented fungal food plus a great penetrant/surfactant. Gets the CT into the ground and feeds the fungi. I too add it after brewing.

I used to add during brewing but had foam problems. Also had highest fungal numbers (measured) with that brew - Saponyn. I did a couple of brews with yucca with a preservative (sodium benzoate) and the fungal numbers were nonexistent, again measured. As Elaine says don't use preservatives.


WHAT ARE PRODUCT QUALITIES TO SEEK IN YUCCA EXTRACT?

First, no preservatives in it. Sodium benzoate is a preservative.

Second, look at the percentage of saponin content. Do not assume that something that says “x per cent yucca extract” means “x per cent saponin”. The saponin content is separate and distinct from the total dissolved solids (TDS). If you see a high number – say 70 per cent – it is probably TDS, but check.

Third, how was the juice extracted? Was it pressed out or chemically extracted? Certain kinds of saponin for medical purposes that require purity may be using a chemical extraction. For tea making, seek a pressed extraction to avoid any negative effect of extra chemicals.

FEEDBACK: Fourth, should we be trying to find out what else is in there besides yucca? Mine smells like molasses. Does anyone know what the rest of the ingredients are?

From: Carole Eddington
On 12/1/01 we took our tea sample out for Soil Food Web Testing, then put in a saponin, Thermex 70 from Peaceful Valley immediately after and took another sample out with the Saponin. The active fungal biomass without the saponin were 7.45 and with saponin 4.1. Elaine said it may have been some type of preservatives in the saponin or something. I have found Desert King is experimenting with a dry powder saponin without preservatives. I got a sample but I have not tried it yet. .

Laura Sabourin also reported on finding a product called Ther X70 Yucca Extract, manufactured by Cellu-Con (559-568-0190) and OMRI listed. The concentration is said to be 70 per cent concentrated yucca extract. (note that is different from the percentage of saponin)

Tom Jaszewski wrote:
The only advantage I see to ThermX is being able to buy quarts. At 2-3 oz./acre many will not need much more. The label matches Helena Chemicals’ Saponyn product @ 20% saponin.

Elaine Ingham wrote (5/26/2002):
Saponin - Helena Chemical Co has exclusive rights to the best saponin product we've tested yet - no preservatives. And sorry, I haven't seen a better one. Anything else we have worked with has negative effects, because of the preservative in the material, low concentration, doesn't get the organisms to grow. If someone knows of something else, let me know, and let's test it! But, track down the saponyn product from Helena because it works.
Link: http://www.helenachemical.com/proprietary/products/bioscience/saponyn/saponyn.htm

5-28-02, Laura Sabourin wrote she had found a Canadian supplier, Yu-cann , offering a product with saponin from yucca, without preservatives. Their product, Sure-Grow was reported to sell for CDN$7.80 per litre so around US$20.00 gallon.

Dan Lynch suggested that she check to see the percentage of Saponin and reported Helena's Saponyn sells for $75US/gallon with a one gallon smallest size. Laura reported back that Sure-Grow is 5.1% saponin compared to 20% from Helena CHEMICALS. She also reported that the person at Yu-cann raised the question as to whether the Helena product was chemical extracted and noted that Sure-Grow is acceptable for organic use.

Tom Jaszewski researched this issue and posted (6/14/2002) the following correspondence from Tom Piatkowski of Helena Chemical

“I did some checking to make sure I was correct in my statements to you. The manufacturer of our materials is OMRI listed. The material is approved for use by organic farmers.

“Helena did not choose to maintain an OMRI certification for this product or several others. Instead, we have chosen to address the issue by referring to the National Standards. This is the only practical manner we can provide customers nationwide with organically approved materials.

“There are techniques that have been developed to chemically extract saponin from plants and trees. Saponin is a widely used material in areas (biotech ) that require very pure and exact extractions. This is not the case with Saponyn. Saponin in our product is extracted by pressing Yucca logs and is then concentrated to the 20% level.” (end of post)

Dan Lynch reported finding but not having tried another possibly less expensive source at this link:

http://www.ycdi.com/yucca.htm

Dan wrote to the source and received this reply from Robert Simpson:
“Thank you for your enquiry! The saponin content is 20%, the brix rating is 50 and it is processed food grade. It is on the California Department Of Food and Agriculture's Preliminary Organic Materials List-W, as a natural wetting agent, published in 1998, as in compliance with the California Organic Foods Act of 1990.”

No other reports on this product were found in the archives. Dan suggested that the company have SFI test their product. If you contact them about the possibility of buying their product, you could ask if they’ve chosen to test their product with SFI. In the list archives, there is an offer from Robert Simpson for a discount to compost tea list members.

Dan Lynch reported that his experience with Ag-Aide 50 is that it has a preservative that appears to limit organism growth. He used it but says “ CT testing showed the problem.” No other reports on this product; we didn’t ask Dan for the test results that led Dan to that comparative conclusion.

FEEDBACK: The most useful way to present the product data would be in a table, with price, percent yucca extract, per cent saponin, other ingredients, bottle sizes or minimum order, and OMRI/organic certification. The goal would be to avoid hosannas and to present comparative info so that people can make their own informed decisions.


Yucca & Saponin

From: [email protected]
From my test results last year Saponyn (Yucca extract) [corresponded with the best fungal numbers in tea] but it foams like mad so I add just before spraying. Other items for fungal extraction are said to be Dramm liquid fish (hydrolysate), humic acid, dried horsetail as well as other commercial preparations mentioned in the CT Brewing Manual. Elaine also mentioned good aeration helps fungal extraction.


Elaine Ingham wrote:
Fungal foods -- saponin is good, but it foams to high heaven. Bruce Elliott shared his experience with me once -- everything was fine when he left late evening, after putting saponin in the brew mid-afternoon. When he walked in early the next morning, his entire facility was waist deep in foam...[snip]...

A REMINDER TO KEEP RESULTS IN PERSPECTIVE:

May 26, 2002 Tom Jaszewski said:
I wouldn't be too quick to make a judgment on the basis of one tea sampling. We use Saponyn, the trade name for Helena Chemical's saponin extract. There are so may variables in producing tea, especially, it seems in getting good fungal extraction. Do you measure your oxygen levels? Have you followed good cleaning procedures? Was the parent material from the same batch? What are the inert ingredients?

Yucca extract made without Sodium Benzoate.
My biggest concern for Yucca without preservatives is how long it will store

STORING YUCCA EXTRACT

Jason Kimm said:
I store my Yucca for up to a year. I keep it in a shed where the temperature ranges from 32 F to 90 F. I will not store an open container that has been contaminated (for example by a splash of tea or water) or store the yucca in container other than the one it was shipped in. If I open a container during the summer and the temp is high (say above 50 F) I would store the Yucca in a refrigerator. The yucca I use is in an opaque container so light is not an issue other than its effect on temperature. My source is Desert King and they are willing to produce a preservative free product.

I order it in 5-gallon pails but they also ship in 1 gallon containers. They will not ship in 50 gal drums because of the risk of spoilage. The key is to keep the lid closed and don't pour material back into the source container. (Jason Kimm)

WHAT ARE STORAGE CONDITIONS - temperature?

Unfortunately I've been unwilling to risk the loss of material from spoilage. Since I have hundreds of acres less than you farm, even a single gallon lasts quite awhile. That being the case I'm willing to use products with small amounts of preservative. My concern here is for the many smaller brewers that would use very small quantities. Saponyn has been written about as being among the highest quality yucca extracts and I'm certain it has preservatives. [NOTE: you can buy it with or without preservatives from Helena Chemical]


FEEDBACK: Wrote to Paul Sachs for any input he may have on storage and additional input on humic acid and yucca qualities and product characteristics. He can’t respond till after holidays. 12/19/03

INGREDIENTS TO CONTROL FOAMING

Elaine Ingham said: Just a few drops [of corn oil] helps cut the foam. But be careful of the kind of oil - SOME canola oils and olive oils are anti-fungal. You might want to test before and after adding the oil to see what effect the oil had on the organisms.

Fish emulsion, hydrolysate said to cut foam in brew

Mike Harvey said: I do not use yucca in my tea. I do use fish emulsion to reduce the foam in a normal CT brew. I have no test results to say if this is a positive or not. I use it regularly and it will drop the foam immediately once added.

Steve Robideux (sp?) at SFI Aus highly recommends the fish hydrolysate to cut foam. I have used hydrolysate as well and seems to have a higher % oil and so works better. To 1000 litre CT I will add 100ml and this will last for say 3 hours (it will be eaten by the organisms?) and then foam will start again. This is very approximate and is adequate for our purposes. I will then add more say 100ml, total in a brew 1000 litres say 0.4 litre.

TIP FOR ADDING ALREADY-GROWN FUNGI TO TEA RECIPE

Sat Sep 21, 2002 11:50 pm, Elaine Ingham said:
When you put the white, fibrous fungi into the tea, I hope you put the surrounding woody pieces and soil in as well. The white hyphae are good indicators of good fungi, but if you put just the strands, you may not have gotten the spores or the active hyphae. The active hyphae are the tips, which you can't see with your un-aided eyes. Thus, the soil in the handful of material around the white strands is the best idea.


PRE INOCULATING COMPOST FOR FUNGAL GROWTH IN TEA:

What do good fungi grown out in compost look like? Thick white strands, NOT FUZZY, GREY stuff. OK? We don't want to see spores.

ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION OF GROWING OUT FUNGI IN COMPOST

From: Jeff Lowenfels
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 1:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [compost_tea] A proposal for Testing compost and nutrients for fungi: The Experiment

Folks,

I hope this starts a new thread, if you will pardon the imagery" in our quest to both figure out who best to get fungal numbers up, consistently, in teas and also the reduce the cost of testing by figuring out correlations between what we can observe at home vs. what the tests consistently reveal. I am hopeful that others on this list will engage in a simple set of experiments, that we pool the information and then see if we can't forward our cause!

This past month a few of us up here in Alaska have been trying this experiment in an effort to get better fungal readings in our teas. We've been taking samples of our compost (in this case Alaska Humus) and adding various suggested tea nutrients to see if we could induce visible fungi growth. Again, we are hopeful that others will try this, too. In the process the group can come up with a standard protocol that we can all try, at the same time, sometime next month---a list-serve wide experiment designed to answer some questions on fungal growth in teas once and for all!

Test so far have been samples with various combinations of vinegar, malt, Bragg and humic acid such as. For control up here we are all using Alaska Humus.

0. Control...Alaska humus....1 cup
1. + Vinegar to lower pH....1 teaspoon per cup
2.+ Humic Acid......1 teaspoon per cup
3. +Bragg Amino... 2 teaspoon per cup
4. +Brewer's Malt....2 teaspoons per cup
5. malt and vinegar
6. malt and humic acid
7 malt and braggs
8 malt and Bragg and humic
9 malt and Bragg and humic and vinegar

and whatever other combinations there are. One These were dampened slightly and covered and placed in warm, dark locations. I had mine on a seed germinating heat mat. One tester had his on top of a refrigerator for warmth. Another kept the samples in a warm, stuffy office. The results, mycelium---nice threads, appeared in some and not in others. And they were there in varying amounts.

So far our observations include:
Malt and Bragg do indeed induce fungal growth--at least in Alaska Humus compost.
I am still holding out on if the vinegar helps...amount to use should be tested with a pH meter. One guy thinks it does, one of us doesn't. So, no conclusions here.

Malt, in particular, seems to be the best nutrient in our tests so far. It was the first to display and had the most penetration. After three days you could tip the cup upside down and the whole compost mass fell out like it was molded Jell-O! A few of the others got there, but took much longer---five to six days. --Neither vinegar or AH alone generate visible fungi. --Combinations were not always better than single ingredients.

I don't want to influence other's tests, so I will hold back on the exact results until those that want to try, give it a go.

For standards sake, try using 1 cup of compost......and teaspoons per cup of ingredients so others can try and replicate for comparisons.

Now the questions is: What makes more sense:
1 Growing the fungi in compost using a pre-brew soak and then using the compost for tea
2 Growing the fungi in the tea using the ingredients we know work in the compost and skipping the pre-brew soak
3 Growing fungi in compost using a pre-brew soak and then using the nutrients again in the tea?

Intuition suggests #3. Testing will tell. Wish they weren't so expensive! It would be great if there is some correlation between what you see in your compost by way of mycelium and what you get in your tea by way of fungal count. Then we can reduce the number of test necessary insofar fungi is concerned.

We would be very interested in seeing if others have the same experience with their compost and if you want to try the group experiment next month!


OTHER NOTES ON GROWING OUT FUNGI

PHOTOS: David Loring’s photos of fungal growth in preinoculated compost:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/agriculture/composting/compost_tea-list/archive1/0494.html

I assume soybean meal is ground seed! I buy it at the local feed store here. Man, did it ever produce fungi! I used one teaspoon per cup and added a teaspoon of water. I then put the cup on a seed germinating mat. Fungal mycelium appeared two days later. (and later) Incidentally, the use of soy bean meal seems more effective than malt at growing fungi in compost......all that stuff with BRAGGS which is just liquid soy for the most part....why didn't we think of soy bean meal earlier? (Jeff Lowenfels)

I saw exactly the same thing with rice bran but I figure any other bran would have same effect. (Jose Luiz Garcia)
**
The highest fungal numbers I have gotten in a tea came from pretreating 16 ounces of a woody compost with 2 ounces of fish hydrolysate for three days at 80*F. It was covered with fungi by the time I added it and the analysis showed it was in the 3um category of beneficial sized fungi.
**
I have now been able to grow the exact same, long, long, snowy white mycelium using baby oatmeal, malt (specifically "Munton's Wheat Unhopped, Spray Malt Extract, 3 lbs for 11 dollars and do be careful not to get any of it but what you are using wet--available wherever you can buy beer making supplies), and, of course, "the Meals" i.e. feather meal, bone meal, blood meal, cottonseed meal and alfalfa meal. (source?)

On 9/25/02, Jeff Lowenfels said:
Dan, the malt I used to get the fungi to grow in my compost, Alaska Humus, was brewer's malt. I only sent the site yesterday to give names...not as a source because the prices are too high there. Yeah, brewer's malt is really cheap!

Elaine Ingham said:
I agree with Jeff on the way to grow beneficial fungi in your compost. Add beneficial fungal foods to the compost, and/or add Alaska humus to your not-so-great-compost, and let them grow at 50% moisture.

Pay attention to the kind of fungi growing. David Loring has some good pictures on his website of the different fungi grown from different composts with different food resources. You can tell the bad "composts" because they only grew gray fuzz, not thick white strands.

The kelps and algae weren't good fungal foods, because they didn't grow the beneficial fungi either. The humus, humic acids and fish hydrolysate grew the good fungi from the good composts.

Easy to test which composts are good composts that way too!

Or you can send tests into us to know as well. Your choice!

This may cover some of your foaming issues.