Organic Fanatic Collective

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Suby, I would agree. The PF soils are just a convenience as I am disabled and as I get older, its harder to sling around buckets of ammendments and mixing.

So, starting with a "good" PF mix is just my method. I would prefer to ammend the soils I have now with added blood/bone, kelp and perlite.

I have been having issues with a chronic brochitus (sp)that just keeps reoccurring- I am thinking I may be having a reaction to the guano.

After searching for a link to go to on this I also found this:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/81823/the_hidden_danger_that_bats_leave_behind.html

Scary shit. Pun intended.

But my girls love it so much.

minds_I

 

[the protege]

So, I must ask, when do you all normally cut shoots from your plants (as in 2nd week of veg or 2nd week flower)? I don't plan on keeping a mother, but rather taking 2-3 cuts of each plant then flowering and seeing which ones are keepers.

Do you not dip in any rooting hormone? Just curious.

I plan on growing in a large bin with 3-5 plants. Hopefully 15-20 gallon rubbermaid will be enough for them to grow that way? If anyone has a serious objection to this I am all ears. Also, I was planning on putting a 1 inch layer of lava rock or some sort of larger pourous rock to allow water to run out of the bottom. I don't want standing water!

The idea was to purchase 2 rubbermaids and stick one inside of the other. The one inside would have small holes drilled throughout with a layer of lava rock. Then the soil would be placed on top. The bottom rubbermaid would have a bulkhead with a hose attached on the outside. It would be in a vertical position so I could actively watch the water level. If too much, lower the hose and allow some to run out there fore keeping that dry layer.

What do you think?
Thanks for the response Suby.

 

[vonforne]

So, I must ask, when do you all normally cut shoots from your plants (as in 2nd week of veg or 2nd week flower)? I don't plan on keeping a mother, but rather taking 2-3 cuts of each plant then flowering and seeing which ones are keepers.

Do you not dip in any rooting hormone? Just curious.

I plan on growing in a large bin with 3-5 plants. Hopefully 15-20 gallon rubbermaid will be enough for them to grow that way? If anyone has a serious objection to this I am all ears. Also, I was planning on putting a 1 inch layer of lava rock or some sort of larger pourous rock to allow water to run out of the bottom. I don't want standing water!

The idea was to purchase 2 rubbermaids and stick one inside of the other. The one inside would have small holes drilled throughout with a layer of lava rock. Then the soil would be placed on top. The bottom rubbermaid would have a bulkhead with a hose attached on the outside. It would be in a vertical position so I could actively watch the water level. If too much, lower the hose and allow some to run out there fore keeping that dry layer.

What do you think?
Thanks for the response Suby.

I like to cut lead shoots in veg only. IMO there will be no genetic drift. I do not keep mothers sometimes and just cut succesive clones in veg and weed out the ones I don't like. I use Rootone powder and peat pellets. Works great for me. I have put Hydrotron pellets at the bottom. I found it works good also. The rubbermaid things sounds like a good plan but have never used it.



And to everyone at the OFC a Hearty High. Glad to see you are all doing well and glad to see some new members.
Hello Suby, MI, Jaykush and Smurf.

 

[Suby]

Hey V man good to see you, I've been doing the hydroton thing now for awhile and I really think it makes a difference in root respiration.

So sorry Protege I didn't answer your last post, I checked out the thread and forgot to come back and give you the 411.

I like to take my cuttings within the first week of flowering or preferably while they are in veg, I mix half perlite with half soiless mix and a handfull of worm casting and that's it, I don't use rooting hormone but there is no harm in doing so.

I've done the rubbermaid thing and they work great, I prefer using a plywood box the size of the bottom of the cab so as to get the most soil but tubs are great and waterproof so a logical choice.
You can just use the lid of the tub to catch runoff, it has a good 1" lip which is alot of runoff.

Peace
S

 

[emmy75]

as per request from suby here is an article on c:n ratio. im on my second grow and ive had n def for both. i dont think ill ever have to deal with a n def again but damn was it a bumpy road.

Organic Materials as Nitrogen Fertilizers
by K.A. Barbarick 1

Quick Facts...

* Organic materials usually are added to soils to provide such plant nutrients as nitrogen and to improve the physical nature of the soil.
* Organic residues that have a low nitrogen content can cause nitrogen deficiencies in plants as microorganisms decompose the organic compounds.
* Inorganic nitrogen must be added with some organic fertilizers to prevent nitrogen deficiencies in Crops.

Crop residues and organic wastes commonly are added to soils as sources of plant nutrients and to improve the physical properties of the soil. These materials do not contain the same quantity of nutrients. In fact, incorporating some organic materials into the soil can induce nitrogen deficiencies in plants. The composition of the added material determines whether nitrogen is released for plant growth or tied up in an unavailable form by the microorganisms that decompose the organic fertilizers.
Ratio of Carbon to Nitrogen

An important property of an organic residue that influences the immediate availability of nitrogen is the ratio of carbon to nitrogen (C:N). The addition of an organic fertilizer provides carbon that can serve as an energy source for most soil microorganisms. The residue not only will increase microbial activity but also nitrogen needs of the organisms. The microbes use the carbon to build cells and the nitrogen to synthesize proteins. If the organic residue has a C:N less than about 20:1 (high nitrogen content), then the microorganisms will obtain adequate nitrogen for their needs and will convert the excess organic nitrogen to ammonium (NH4+). This conversion is called mineralization and is summarized in the following equation:

organic N (e.g., protein) --> microbial activity --> NH4 + (1)

Ammonium is a form of nitrogen that plants can absorb; organic nitrogen cannot be used by plants. If the organic material has a C:N greater than approximately 20:1 (low nitrogen content), then the microorganisms whose activity increases because of the addition of the carbon will not obtain enough nitrogen from the residue. Consequently, the microbes absorb the plant-available sources of nitrogen in the soil. This process probably would cause a nitrogen deficiency in plants where a high C:N compound had been added to the soil. The loss of plant-available nitrogen is called immobilization, which can be represented by the equation below:

NO3- or NH4+ --> microbial activity --> organic N (unavailable nitrogen) (2)

Immobilization could tie up the nitrate (NO3-) and ammonium (NH4+) for a number of months. After this time, the nitrogen will be released by mineralization of the organic nitrogen found in the residue and microbial tissue.

To prevent a possible nitrogen deficiency when adding residues with a C:N greater than 20:1, nitrogen fertilizer should be added to the organic material or to the soil when the residue is incorporated. The following example illustrates how to calculate the additional fertilizer that is needed to prevent immobilization (see equation 2) of plant-available nitrogen.
Example

Assume that you have 1 dry ton of sawdust. Sawdust has a very high C:N of 400:1 and contains about 40 percent carbon.

* Calculate the pounds of carbon in the sawdust:
2,000 lbs x 0.40 = 800 lbs C.
* Calculate the pounds of nitrogen in the sawdust:
800 lbs C x (1 lb N / 400 lbs C) = 2 lbs N.
* You need a C:N of 20:1 to prevent immobilization. Calculate the pounds of nitrogen needed to lower the C:N to that level:
800 lbs C x (1 lb N / 20 lbs C) = 40 lbs N.
* The sawdust contains 2 pounds N; therefore, 38 pounds of nitrogen must be added.
* Calculate the pounds of a common nitrogen fertilizer to be added. Assume you will use urea (46-0-0):
38 lbs N x (1 lb fertilizer / 0.46 lb N) = 83 lbs of 46-0-0 needed.

Table 1 provides the C:N and nitrogen fertilizer required for certain organic fertilizers to prevent immobilization of plant-available nitrogen in the soil. When selecting a nitrogen fertilizer, use the one that is the most economical on a pound nitrogen basis.
Other Considerations

Other important considerations when adding organic compounds to soils are the rates of decomposition and the addition of toxic materials.

* Sawdust and wood chips decompose much more slowly than crop residues or animal manures.
* Some wood materials release toxic compounds upon decomposition.
* Biosolids such as sewage sludges could contain toxic metals and organic compounds; therefore, they must be managed carefully when applied to soils.
* Animal manures could increase soil salinity and could add large amounts of weed seeds to the soil.

If managed properly, however, organic waste material can provide a significant source of plant nutrients as well as a means to improve soil tilth and water-holding capacity.

Table 1: Carbon/nitrogen ratios and nitrogen fertilizer requirements.

Estimated
C:N(1) Pounds N/dry ton(2) Pounds 33-0-0(3) N/dry ton 46-0-0(4)

Material

Sewage sludge 12:1 - - -
Alfalfa 13:1 - - -
Sheep manure(5) 17:1 - - -
Beef cattle manure 17:1 - - -
Swine manure 17:1 - - -
Poultry manure 18:1 - - -
Dairy cattle manure 25:1 8 24 17
Horse manure 50:1 24 73 52
Small grain straws, corn stalks 80:1 30 91 65
Sawdust, wood chips 400:1 38 115 83


1. A C:N less than 20:1 probably would not result in immobilization of the soil nitrogen.
2. This calculation assumes an average of 40 percent carbon for all of the materials listed.
3. 33-0-0 is ammonium nitrate or NH4NO3.
4. 46-0-0 is urea or CO(NH2)2.
5. All animal manures are assumed to be dry and to contain no bedding material. If bedding material were present, C:N would be even higher and more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.

1 Colorado State University professor, soil and crop sciences. 9/96. Reviewed 1/06.

 

[Smurf]

Thanks for that emmy ,.... those ratios (20:1) are exactly what I was taught.

V man (as suby would say).... doing the deed on all the relevant bumping.... on ya mate

minds I..... bronchitis is scary shit even if it is managed properly.....take care mate

Relic.... r u living it up over on the east coast?

smurf

 

[Relik]

Hello organic friends, I'm back from Sydney (actually arrived this weekend but university started on monday), had a lot of fun there, met some nice people and enjoyed the beer. Could only find commercial hydro after being ripped of a hundred OZdollars in Kings Cross when trying to buy weed... stuff like that make you realize there's no such thing as nice homegrown bud, which of course you don't need to buy...

Since it's summer down here and there's almost no bud I brought back a few grams from Australia, friends in need were happy to have some smoke (I admit I was too

I had also bought alfalfa seeds, with great tea ideas in mind but those fuckers at the airport customs (at the arrival) didn't let me keep them. I told them I had seen alfalfa on a few occasions in the country, they told me they were keeping them to "protect the economy". I'm just a gardener, but WTH. You can find alfalfa sprouts here, they use them for salads, but I'd rather grow my own, as with everything...

They also kept the catnip seeds I had, as well as sunflower seeds.

Back home, as you may guess, I checked my girls. I had 4 cuttings that had just rooted of which 2 died because of the heat and lack of water (I couldn't find someone to water the garden everyday, my father came when he could). Of the remaining 2, one was stunted and another was doing great.

I also had 4 plants in veg/flower transition, they had been fed a strong tea before I left to Sydney, about 2 weeks ago. 2 of them were doing great when I returned, but the 2 others, which are the biggest btw, were really thirsty. I would have thought that being the biggest, they would have a larger root system and would have been able to pump water from the soil (all my plants are in the soil, I only start them for about 4-6 weeks in pots, to allow for transplants), but they didn't.

One plant was showing an N def, tho, which surprised me because I included fish emulsion in my tea. Then I remembered reading about nitrogen sequestration in carbon-rich soils. The N def plant's soil contains high amounts of relatively recent organic matter, when compared to my other plants. As you know, organic matter = carbon.

After I read your post, emmy, I knew why I had that N def. Thanks!

I see new faces and activity in our Organics forum, which is a really good thing! Keep it rockin' people, take care!

 

[Suby]

Hey Emmy, Smurf and Relik

Emmy welcome to the OFC, don't worry there is no ritual scarifice unless you count blood and bone meal
Thank you for posting that, I like the members who come across good and very important info to post it themselves in this thread, it gets everyone involved and gives full credit where it's due.
If it's your second grow and you understood the underlying principles in that post then you are well on your way to a successfull organic carrer.

Smurf

I hope things are groovy for you, how is that garden rocking?

Relik

Great to have you back safe and sound, sounds like you got the real "tourist" treatment out there lol. I'm sure the only reason anything survived in your garden is that is was well cared for before you left, such is the life of a grower. University eh? God I'm glad that's behind me, pure and applied science is not a fun curriculum.

For those who know me I have found a way to keep flexing my growing muscles and put my grow equipment to good use, I am basically running the show and I have a few things I will be trying out and I will be getting around to testing some tea recipies as soon as spring arrives, it's been -30 C since yesterday, i think i'll go sunbathe under my 430W HPS hihi.
It will be a 3' x 8' x 7 ' grow space walled off in an underground bunker with access to outside air, it will be nice to setup a room without it being a shitty closet setup, those are fun but a pain to regulate environment.

Peace and welcome home all.

Suby

 

[jaykush]

hey whats up peeps.

relik don't you hate when you have to leave. i always try to have almost nothing going but mothers when i vacation. they just need water usually, and that can be timed. good thing most of them are still alive. lol the alfalfa, they think your going to sell it become the alfalfa drug lord or what haha.

suby glad the mucles are going to get a work out. outdoor season is coming here ill be doing some gurilla grows. what strains you going to be running, i think ill have to get some nettles to you somehow if you cant get em. a must test for you. underground bunker sounds good to me

oh yea good post emmy!

a big high to the rest of the crew as well

 

[Suby]

Hey JK,

I'll be sticking with the only mother I have which id a Dutch Passion strain called Kali Spice (KM x SL), this pheno had medium yield but has an intense high you could hardly develop a tolerance for plus the taste was hashy and the colors where awesome.
I don't like to pay for seeds as I am on a tight budget until we get this going, actually I'm always on a tight budget lol.
We will be planting 2 clones per 20gallon tub with the bottom lined with hydroton and a small hole for runoff.
I'm unsure yet as to whether or not I'll veg them in a 1gallon container then transplant into a flowering mix in the tubs or if I will just veg them in the tubs with a soil mix I'll tailor for this type of growing.
One thing is for sure I will be using coco at about 20-30%, I am hoping for good things from coco in flowering, the nutes will be all teas and guanos of course, I will be skipping the LK this time, I am aiming for a 100% no bottle grow.

JK if you come deliver some nettles in hand I can guaranty some good times lol, summer here is cool and the TamTam is an outdoor smokefest on Sundays full of music and drums and good vibes, cops just steer clear of smokers and let the good times roll. literally.

Peace

 

[Relik]

LOL you couldn't have said it better Suby, I really got the tourist treatment there, this will remind my sorry ass that not everyone in this world is a nice person you can trust. To be honest, I wasn't used to big cities anymore (we're about 120 000 where I live, everyone's kinda chilled out) and forgot how sometimes street dealers try to screw you.

BTW, that bunker grow sounds exciting! Best of luck, and keep it safe as always.

Hey JK how ya doin? Yes, leaving the garden was a pain, and got me worried during my stay in Australia. Concerning the alfalfa, I guess the customs were just doing their job but that kinda pissed me off anyway... as I said, I can find alfalfa sprouts here, do you guys think they can be used in a tea? Or is it better to use more developped plant parts?

Also, I was reading a thread about sugars yesterday, and was wondering (since I can't find molasses here) if it would be better to use unrefined cane sugar or maple syrup as a substitute? Lately I've been using maple syrup (sometimes crushed fruit as a sugar source too, but on a couple of times it smelled funky - not really bad, but weird), with good results, but my guess is unrefined dark sugar should be good... anyway I'll give it a try soon, and will let you guys know if I see any difference.

Take care fellows, see ya soon.

 

[Suby]

the cane sugar for sure will do wonders, maple syrup must be expensive in your neck of the jungle heh.

 

[emmy75]

thanks suby for putting out the welcome mat. and thanks for all the replies. im just glad i could contribute something. ya know some growers wont leave their plants alone. im just the opposite i never did anything for my plants except water with ec and molasses cause i knew they wouldnt burn. i love looking at them grow but i thought the less i fucked with them the better, except for transplanting (i was so the transplanting whore). so instead of anticipating problems i waited till they occurred and then tried to fix them. oh how preventive care is so important. now with the proper guidance from a mate here at icmag things are lookin great and ill have my first homegrown, organic NL nugs to smoke in about 4-5 months.

to boot articles like the one from colorado state help me to understand at least in theory the fundamentals of soil and its ammendments. important information for any new grower.

the difficult we can do immediately; the impossible will take a little longer

 

[Relik]

Yup, you're right Suby, it's a bit expensive over here but I figured a bottle could last a long time. I just did a bit of research and as you advised cane sugar would be great.

I have a friend who has a considerable amount of sugar canes on his property, sometimes we chop the lower part which contains more sugars, and chew it for a while. Organic tropical candy, in some way. Could it be interesting to chop the canes and reduce the resulting juice by boiling it, just like they do in the sugarcane industry? We would certainly need large amounts of canes (we have that) and adequate material (we don't have that), but I'm pretty sure sugar cane juice can be used in some way. Of course this is a bit utopic, but considering I live in a tropical area I think I should try to make something out of sugar canes.

For now, I'll buy raw sugar at the health store...

 

[Smurf]

it's been -30 C since yesterday

damm suby thats cold, it's +26.7 C at the moment here,.... the coldest its gets where I am is about -3 C in winter, ( + or - ) a couple degrees C. Quite comfortable compared to what you have to put up with. A bunker type set up is something I've always wanted to do,... I'm hoping to learn something from yours. "Things ARE groovy".... thanks for asking...... busy collecting pollen (5 or 6 diff males) for the next week or so..... then gonna rip em up before my ladies start to strut their stuff.

I'm pissed off you were ripped during your visit here Relic sorry mate!

These handsome young men,.. lol,.. were fed i think 2, maybe 3 times with a complete organic NPK (due to laziness), the rest of the time I fed them with teas,.... oh yeh, I wanted to see how I'd go with perlite in organic soil outside (only a couple pots)........ excellent drainage but no good with our extreme heat,..... always drying out,... stressing the plants (wilted quite a few times), but they still managed to produce (compared to the rest)

​

​

Oh yeh suby, if it were me, I would put the plants straight into the 20 gal tubs, layered, and then maybe dig the bloom requirements into the top soil when you turn back to 12/12, or you could put every thing in at once (maybe layered)..... I assume its indoors. I've just done something similar, (with 4 plants) just to see if there would be much of a difference, I put one in a 95 litre pot, one in a 3.7 litre pot and the last 2 in 1.9 litre pots. Man what a difference that has made! These snaps were taken today,... I started them in 4 small brown pots (in the back ground) as seedlings, then potted them up just over a week ago.

​

I left one of the 1.9 litre pots out of the snap, but I think you get the idea. The one in the front is a runt (3.7 litre). These are the same beans, germinated at the same time, cultivated in the same soil apart from the volume..... the sugar cane mulch was only added today. The 4th plant is roughly the same size as the one on the rear left. The only problem is that this soil is only geared up for veg, so I'm gonna have to tackle bloom requirements when the time comes.

happy gardening guys n gals
smurf

edit:
I just remembered.... the largest plant also received extra ewc (mine) around the root ball when I transplanted,.... dont think it bogged down the soil at all, but we'll see.
IMHO I think too much plant energy is lost due to potting on and root restrictions. just my

 

[Suby]

Hey Relik,

If you have that much sugar can at your disposal you could mulch it and make a compost heap, you'd get some real kickass compost from that, with all those sugars are fiber for the fungi that compost heap would heat hotter than hell lol.

Hey Smurf,

Gawd I am so jealous, what a great outdoor setup, I wish I could grow outdoors but LEO are in helicopters in the fall so that's no good.
I am actually considering doing a transplant after some discussion with Jaykush, we'll see how it goes.
If drying out is a problem replace all your perlite content with vermiculite which retains water, that and you can add water retaining crystals, when I was brave and did guerilla outdoors that's what we did, fuck the mosquitos where bad in those deep woods.
Oh how far we go for the passion of Mary Jane lol.

Emmy

How are those girls looking? Any better with that N def?

Peace all
Suby

 

[Oaxacan]

This is my place to be...

This is my place to be...

Jipijaijej...finally I found some serious medical growers...just wanted to say that I also like it the natural way...

I use:

-Perlite
-Vermiculite
-great organic soil made from worm castings (in my country its called Biobrazda)
- stone powder
- bone meal
- fish blood
- peru guano for growing phase
- bat guano for flowering phase

...also it is very important to flush the girls about 3 weeks before end of floweing phase...only with water...

...so I can smoke the greatest weed when me and my friends are in need...

 

[Suby]

Hey Oax,

Good to have you along, I self medicate so I guess that makes me a med grower lol.
Sounds like a nice recipe, I've never really used stone powder but I've read good things about it, any particular type?

Do you use any type of lime in that mix or you run it straight?

Peace
Suby

 

[Relik]

Hey Smurf, no worries mate, everyone gets ripped at some time when buying herb, apart from that I just loved Australia! I don't know how it is to live there, but my stay was more than enjoyable.

Nice experiment with the different soil volumes, do you think the outstanding bigger plant grew better than the others because of the room for roots, or the EWC? Maybe both of them?

I used to think that starting in bigger pots was better, then I thought multiple transplants (about 2-3 weeks between each, just before they get rootbound) in smaller pots was a good way to maximize the volume of soil containing roots, but your last post will maybe make me change my mind lol. I'll be waiting a bit for results to see which method sounds better.

I agree than in our southern heat the soil dries up fast especially if aerated with perlite, now when I dig a hole and fill it with my mix I try to include more perlite in the lower half in order to avoid the fast evaporation but also to help with drainage when needed. A good mulch, and there we go!

Thanks for the wise advise as always Suby, you're the man

Oaxacan, welcome to the place, enjoy yourself!

Peace

 

[Oaxacan]

Yes I do use lime. I add a little more of it when I use my soil the second time. I think you can recycle the soil, you just have to remove most of the roots from the previous grow, add some fresh perlite and worm castings and add some lime and stone powder... I never had any problems with the (Round 2) soil.

About the stone powder I use: its called Biotop and it consists mikroelements, CaCo3, CaO, CaCl, Al2O3,Fe2O3, K2O, MgO, MgCO, NaO, SiO2. It looks like this:

POWER TO THE ORGANIC POSSE