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No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning
- Thread starter Weird
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gene, pray tell what are these western values you speak of that Islam does not like?
Notice, however, that consumerism and blind materialism also deeply affects Muslim societies, they also like nice things, quality clothes, good food, etc...
So lets not confuse human desires in general with 'western values' though...
Peace
Notice, however, that consumerism and blind materialism also deeply affects Muslim societies, they also like nice things, quality clothes, good food, etc...
So lets not confuse human desires in general with 'western values' though...
Peace
19 pages in.....talks of religion and atheism...shit and shit. the need to explain one's existence..the world's existence...a passing fancy...to the wasting of time.
nobody knows shit. that's apparent. there is no choice..no control..enjoy your days
love love love
nobody knows shit. that's apparent. there is no choice..no control..enjoy your days
love love love
genedigger
Member
i think islam has shed more blood than christianty has.islam was waging religious wars centries before any christian faith got involved and even then it was instigated by the pope and other european leaders.
Weird, ok, I can agree with you on certain things, but when you say you can bet that Islamic terrorism is fueled by mere economic interest of the west, then I cannot agree with that, simply because we know that is not really the case, but merely a justification to exonerate from all fault and responsability a religious movement that has gone way into the 'dark side of the force'. You seem to suggest that they can justify terrorism by simply saying: (but the Americans made me do it!)
There's something wrong with that picture though, as we don't see the sophisticated and highly educated Islamic movements like Sufism falling for the whole "we'll be terrorists because the gringos makes us do it".
Peace
There's something wrong with that picture though, as we don't see the sophisticated and highly educated Islamic movements like Sufism falling for the whole "we'll be terrorists because the gringos makes us do it".
Peace
religions are expressions of faith, governments are tools of repression. religions CAN be used to repress, but that is ALWAYS a distortion of it. what happened to the Jewish people in Europe before and during WW2 was mere scapegoating by Hitler & his cronies. SOMEONE had to be blamed for their problems, the Jewish people just happened to be the nail sticking up throughout much of history, and were soon followed by nearly everyone else not of "noble Aryan blood". their persecution had NOTHING to do with religion, and everything to do with blind bigotry & unrelenting hatred. much like what is happening again today...
genedigger
Member
what i meant is, western culture is making inroads into islamic culture which you stated also they like alot of the stuff we have over here.many many isamic folks dont like what they see as western values taking over the existing ones so they attack us by capturing journlists and killing them or coptic christians.
genedigger
Member
thank you old hippy!anyone who has read mien cahmp[hitlers bio i suck at spelling]would realize that religion had nothing to do with why hitler hated jews.
yeah, lots of the problems over there are exacerbated by Christian "missionaries" who think they are "going amongst the Heathen" to save their souls. lots of them are utterly unable to resist taking just a few "spare Bibles" to, you know, help folks along. if they would just go & help those poor villagers get clean water/better roads etc, there would not be such a backlash. if those folks want to come to Christianity ON THEIR OWN, no "sticks nor carrots", no "you are going to HELL for your beliefs", I think a lot fewer of them end up with a sword to the backs of their necks. respect others beliefs, & you have a better shot at them respecting yours... don't get me wrong, the more rabid among them kill each other like it is an intramural sport...I know it, you know it, everyone sees it...
Not what I am saying, not by a long shot.
Extremist populations are small and operate on the fringe, they self marginalize themselves in the application of their own iconoclast views. They are relatively as a whole intellectually and psychologically undeveloped, and most of the times this is because they are grossly impoverished, and many times victims of existing regimes.
They are a reaction to the surrounding humanity, not some irrational force that is born from nothing.
In order for them to have the potency they do they need participation from their opposition, conflictual, lacking compassion with no desire to use education, understanding and other resources to overcome the obstacles of differing point of views.
This is where the American war/propaganda machine comes in.
Watch the power principle, study past engagements of the CIA where they armed extremists so they would collapse governments for the benefits of corporate profits.
United fruit is a good example.
http://www.fairtradecommunity.com/i...a-bunch-of-bananas&catid=46:bananas&Itemid=40
yeah, the problem is extremists are poor and undereducated people who are easy to engage in very illogical confrontations which always benefit someone who aren't apparent in the equation.
No different than the street gangs in Latin or American ghettos
there are more deaths in Illinois and California due to gang terrorism than we will ever know from religious terrorists, and they are bred the same way
poverty, lack of resource and desperation
You stated the answer in your comment "There's something wrong with that picture though, as we don't see the sophisticated and highly educated Islamic movements like Sufism falling for the whole "we'll be terrorists because the gringos makes us do it".
Humans marginalize humans for wealth profit and power
that's why we have strife
and the powers that manipulate us into know this and do it on purpose
this is all very calculated and very deliberate and is being orchestrated from much higher up
growbig789
Member
I think its interesting to ponder the universe, how it began, big bang or not... its just mind blowing to think about scales in the universe and the order of magnitude of microscopic life/nano/sub atomic whatever to the vast almost un-comprehendable size of the universe. And the idea that of what we know is out there (through science/observation), we happen to be sitting on this little rock with perfect environmental conditions, just the perfect distance from the sun, with teeming life and beauty and incredible diversity... while everywhere else in our known little speck of the universe is in-hospitable to our known version of life... it makes life seem pretty fragile.
And the fact that we as humans have dominion over this earth, and that we are materially different from other life forms in that I think most could agree man is more than just another life form, there is a broader consciousness, that something inside many refer to as a soul.
Its natural to want to know how/why, and the work scientists do is great and its interesting and we can learn alot and make our lives better... but of course the fact is that we will never really know by scientific fact how it all began. And personally I'm not going to waste alot of time trying to figure it out the details, although its cool to check out the latest theory.
For me, all I need to know is that I believe God created it all... I don't know how he did it, big bang, billions of years, instantly, whatever I don't need to know the details. Its where scientific research gives you some clues but really just lends more awe to just how amazing it all is and the physical and scientific laws He created to hold it all together.
And I respect other people's rights to their own opinions, because when you give the credit to God you are moving from a scientific discussion to a spiritual one, and thats something that every individual has to make for themselves... And I believe God leaves alot of doors open and questions unanswered because he wants people to make that decision to acknowledge Him on their own without revealing all the secrets of the universe.
Thats where faith steps in... and to many people faith is a bunch of BS and a waste of time believing in something that you cannot prove. But to someone that has personally been convicted in their soul its a powerful thing. And if you immerse yourself in the Bible, and you come to truly believe it is God's inspired word to man, you find that faith is an absolute necessity and life asset. Its one of those things that you kinda have to go all in on, can't sit on the fence. Anyways, works for me...
And the fact that we as humans have dominion over this earth, and that we are materially different from other life forms in that I think most could agree man is more than just another life form, there is a broader consciousness, that something inside many refer to as a soul.
Its natural to want to know how/why, and the work scientists do is great and its interesting and we can learn alot and make our lives better... but of course the fact is that we will never really know by scientific fact how it all began. And personally I'm not going to waste alot of time trying to figure it out the details, although its cool to check out the latest theory.
For me, all I need to know is that I believe God created it all... I don't know how he did it, big bang, billions of years, instantly, whatever I don't need to know the details. Its where scientific research gives you some clues but really just lends more awe to just how amazing it all is and the physical and scientific laws He created to hold it all together.
And I respect other people's rights to their own opinions, because when you give the credit to God you are moving from a scientific discussion to a spiritual one, and thats something that every individual has to make for themselves... And I believe God leaves alot of doors open and questions unanswered because he wants people to make that decision to acknowledge Him on their own without revealing all the secrets of the universe.
Thats where faith steps in... and to many people faith is a bunch of BS and a waste of time believing in something that you cannot prove. But to someone that has personally been convicted in their soul its a powerful thing. And if you immerse yourself in the Bible, and you come to truly believe it is God's inspired word to man, you find that faith is an absolute necessity and life asset. Its one of those things that you kinda have to go all in on, can't sit on the fence. Anyways, works for me...
Mad Lab
Member
bottom line, we are man, and we will wage war. religion doesnt have much to do with that.
likely most men in power who are the agents behind most of these religious wars, were not truly connected to the belief system they represent. most roman catholic cardinals in the crusade era were likely astrotheologists and today, some are atheists, and yes some may still think their god is behind their decisions(islam).
what religion does help with, is giving a reason to the people to kill in the name of god, because its hard for people to kill in the name of much else. regardless of whatever the true motivation behind the war, i doubt god is ever present. but once again, anyone who judges a certain theology or philosophy based on its abuses should go back to high school debate.
blaming any bloodshed on a religion is really not looking at the real issue: man.
once thats agree'd to, we can have a real discussion.
weird made very good points.
also, christians (catholics, not real christians to me but whatever) at one point were violent. not so much these days, and calling the USA a christian army would be a joke.
but islam is targeting christians... for one reason this time: because of their beliefs. very different then many wars targeting certain people, as gene said, hitler didnt have much of a religious belief that dictated why he hated jews.
always strange to me when a peaceful people are targeted for a belief system that supposedly has no merit.
likely most men in power who are the agents behind most of these religious wars, were not truly connected to the belief system they represent. most roman catholic cardinals in the crusade era were likely astrotheologists and today, some are atheists, and yes some may still think their god is behind their decisions(islam).
what religion does help with, is giving a reason to the people to kill in the name of god, because its hard for people to kill in the name of much else. regardless of whatever the true motivation behind the war, i doubt god is ever present. but once again, anyone who judges a certain theology or philosophy based on its abuses should go back to high school debate.
blaming any bloodshed on a religion is really not looking at the real issue: man.
once thats agree'd to, we can have a real discussion.
weird made very good points.
also, christians (catholics, not real christians to me but whatever) at one point were violent. not so much these days, and calling the USA a christian army would be a joke.
but islam is targeting christians... for one reason this time: because of their beliefs. very different then many wars targeting certain people, as gene said, hitler didnt have much of a religious belief that dictated why he hated jews.
always strange to me when a peaceful people are targeted for a belief system that supposedly has no merit.
Mad Lab
Member
we become something different as you say,all the sudden we became somewhat responsible for the earth and all the creatures in it.
to call us just animals would be incorrect to me. guilt doesnt allow us to take that position as much as some would prefer.
"one of the best favours a person can do themselves" is to nurture an awareness of their nonverbal consciousness.. we express ourselves in language and often continue through life thinking in words until we neglect awareness outside of words and semantics/the representational.............
.....only then would we be able to notice if we did ever observe something truly mysterious.. (eg. feeling pulses from cygnus.) ..we are practically blind outside of the spectra that are represented in semantics.......
w.s. burroughs suggested walking in the forest.. where our senses are engaged.. then, we can gradually notice that we are conscious in ways beyond representation for whole seconds at a time.. at least, as an educated person, this has been a journey for me to develop autonomy from words....
Mad Lab
Member
im not sure if i entirely agree with that statement.
to tell a christian they should go there to fed people, you wouldnt be addressing the christian as much as a chartiable volunteer. but a christian spreads christianity, thats suggested by the christians philosophy.
although jesus states before you give a hungry man the word, you must give him food first, which is what alot of christians there are doing. you can try to feed these people one day but people dont get much farther and die in the near future. what was the point of these people eating if they die of hunger a week later and have no hope. what those missionaries are attempting to do is bring hope for a dying community, which is much more of value than food for a day.
any christian who tells you "do this or that or your going to hell" is not listening to the philosophy of jesus who stated no man can condemn another, only god.
the problem is, while there have been many nonviolent cultures,
eg. the jains had massive empires for like 6 centuries,
trying to get an american to actually perceive and intellectually acknowledge their nonviolence instead of sublimating it to some condition empirically defined by violence,
is practically a ridiculous waste of time.
to be a Christian is (or used to be) to help those who need it -IE- build schools, dig wells, build roads, help with health issues. if the only reason you go to "help" people is to preach to/at and/or "convert" them, in my opinion, you are wasting your time & theirs. is it ok to you if Muslims come into our poorer communities & "convert" Christians to Islamists? (trick question, LOL!) I read lots of folks arguing against that. no, just "feeding" them does not help. giving them seed that will grow in their soil & use less water is more like it. charity always bites you in the ass, as it build resentment. "do this or that or you're going to hell" not Christian? try telling that to ANY Southern Baptist minister, LOL! talk about narrow-minded...
from the No Big Bang start of the thread to dreamy pacifism to JC's words to extremist muslims...pretty much religious dogma..at this point.
nothing much changes....well maybe...the mathematics. 30 yrs from now...it'll still be the same discussion...why? it's the ego of man in his confusion
I believe in Jim Jones (remember that slogan?)....at least he was whacked out on ludes when he conversed to the flock
feel like those slobbering faithful. fuck it....religion and the start of the universe....only common ground is nothingness
we believe in derailment
nothing much changes....well maybe...the mathematics. 30 yrs from now...it'll still be the same discussion...why? it's the ego of man in his confusion
I believe in Jim Jones (remember that slogan?)....at least he was whacked out on ludes when he conversed to the flock
feel like those slobbering faithful. fuck it....religion and the start of the universe....only common ground is nothingness
we believe in derailment
Mad Lab
Member
Well conversation about quantum equations can only go so far, especially in the IC mag community because i doubt many are into physics, just a few. And even if this was a physicist site, philosophical physics only goes so far as well.
And I personally think its a good thing to have intelligent people from various belief systems contributing to this thread and its topic, whether its a christian, buddhist, atheist or an agnostic.
We are human, and relativity is inevitable. Philosophical science is really a waste of time, but i enjoy it. Philosophy relating to human experience, now that is not a waste of time, it is relevant.
It's a run-around, but as humans we are observers. thats why we likely had so much astrotheology in our early history. we recognize patterns and eventually get lost in a maze of irrelevancy with these patterns - which results in seeing patterns that dont mean anything also.
So observing atheists and theists/deists opinions on certain matters, subconsciencly allows us to recognize patterns and will eventually change our outlook on these different foundations of belief which might aide in future life choices.
Something that i observe is happy old couples and people who are old and likely wise.
All of my atheist professors seemed very grumpy and unhappy at the end of their lives. So far, i personally have not met any happy atheists in their old age, let alone many atheists staying athiest at all in their elderly years.
The couples who are old and holding hands, i always try to find out what wisdom they can provide me to reach such a goal. Most of them are christians. not saying happy old atheist couples dont exist, but how many of you guys have met alot of them?
Also, old men, not just couples, in general believe in god. Yes, likely because they are going to die and are now afraid of what may come, but thats nether here nor there.
I just notice patterns when it comes to belief systems and how many people i see with the life i want to have. never met an atheist that i thought "wow, what an awesome life they have, they have everything figured out, i wanna be like them"
All of these comments have no scientific basis, just my personal observation.
And I personally think its a good thing to have intelligent people from various belief systems contributing to this thread and its topic, whether its a christian, buddhist, atheist or an agnostic.
We are human, and relativity is inevitable. Philosophical science is really a waste of time, but i enjoy it. Philosophy relating to human experience, now that is not a waste of time, it is relevant.
It's a run-around, but as humans we are observers. thats why we likely had so much astrotheology in our early history. we recognize patterns and eventually get lost in a maze of irrelevancy with these patterns - which results in seeing patterns that dont mean anything also.
So observing atheists and theists/deists opinions on certain matters, subconsciencly allows us to recognize patterns and will eventually change our outlook on these different foundations of belief which might aide in future life choices.
Something that i observe is happy old couples and people who are old and likely wise.
All of my atheist professors seemed very grumpy and unhappy at the end of their lives. So far, i personally have not met any happy atheists in their old age, let alone many atheists staying athiest at all in their elderly years.
The couples who are old and holding hands, i always try to find out what wisdom they can provide me to reach such a goal. Most of them are christians. not saying happy old atheist couples dont exist, but how many of you guys have met alot of them?
Also, old men, not just couples, in general believe in god. Yes, likely because they are going to die and are now afraid of what may come, but thats nether here nor there.
I just notice patterns when it comes to belief systems and how many people i see with the life i want to have. never met an atheist that i thought "wow, what an awesome life they have, they have everything figured out, i wanna be like them"
All of these comments have no scientific basis, just my personal observation.
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