No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

[Mad Lab]

I don't see how science was born from religion. At least two of the major religions, Christianity and Islam, have traditionally tried to squelch science, and have even punished/executed those who spoke of it. That is my conundrum re: science/religion. I don't include Buddhism in this, as it is a non-theistic "religion", making it more of a philosophy (which I appreciate) than a religion, as I see it. Buddhists aren't "preachy", which I appreciate, unlike the other two religions I referenced. I am quite fascinated by Buddhism. I can relate to it.




If I knew the answer to that question, it would make me......a god? I am not nearly smart enough to answer the questions you pose. Any answer I gave would be pure speculation at best.




My comment wasn't directed at you at all! You are not being preachy, nor have you mentioned any particular favorite deity.

haha ok thats me. of course, you havent really spoke to anyone else in this thread, but i enjoy your ignorance, so no reason for the ignore button.


i agree, buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion, for the shier fact it doesnt acknowledge a deity. which gives it no authority, which makes it a philosophy with an attached belief system such as atheism.

i like buddhism, its like taking Jesus' philosophy and taking away Jesus. mixed in with some universalism. its pretty good advice, too bad it came from a man, so it isnt perfect. but still good advice, maybe not enough authority to commit to as a religion.

you claim christianity has attempted to silence science. once again, dont group protestants, catholics, mormons etc as being the same thing, that is foolish. almost as foolish as saying the scientific community agrees on the same theories. but no, just some people claiming to believe in christ do so, not all christians. noone represent us, except someone that hasnt been around for awhile.

what else have you rambled about? i swear, you are more fixated on my deity than i am! lol, which means i need to start doing more in my own life, but damn Retro, you cant even talk about science your so fixated on the Judea-Christian deity.

thats awesome, that means your closer to finding the truth of life than most people! good for you tuga buga!

no but really, you still dont understand science. you definatly dont understand religion. these other gentlemen do, even if they dont agree with my current position.

but the only people that agree with your position, are jokers like whatever corpse and dr fever. anyone else have any respect for this guys know-it-all perspective? thats not name calling is it? yeah but your kinda a joker, but i pray you will figure out what science is and also what religion is. they are so different, but your faith in quantum equations that will never be tested, that is faith my friend, in a philosophy, that likely will NEVER be proven. definatly not by YOU... lol...

 

[Mad Lab]

By the way, I want to make it perfectly clear that there is a huge difference between spirituality and religiosity.

what is your personal view of spirituality?

is doesnt have a clear definition, because it is subjective.

but i want to know what you think spirituality is?

 

[RetroGrow]

im not really spouting much about my views on Jesus and God, expect rebuttals to your immature comments towards my beliefs.

Seriously? You have mentioned Jesus, and God dozens of times, and quoted the bible numerous times. You are preaching. You're beliefs have nothing to do with science, which is, as you yourself have pointed out on several occasions, the topic of this thread. But the underlying topic for you is always Jesus, yet you deny this. Kind of Judas-like of you. Ironic.

 

[Mad Lab]

Seriously? You have mentioned Jesus, and God dozens of times, and quoted the bible numerous times. You are preaching. You're beliefs have nothing to do with science, which is, as you yourself have pointed out on several occasions, the topic of this thread. But the underlying topic for you is always Jesus, yet you deny this. Kind of Judas-like of you. Ironic.

you wanna hear me preach? sure Retro, that seems to be what you wish for, as you continue to resurrect our dialog time and time again.




thats one thing i wont deny, I bare much more fruit in my life because of Jesus, of which is a belief that i obtained after much research in various science, philosophy, psychology, history and life experience. and in return, jesus in his philosophy, asks me to witness to others if i do believe to have gained something.

i ask every atheist i met one question: do you feel complete?

i was blessed with many things: loving family, money, beautiful women, etc. some things some of us here are blessed to have experienced, some of us will never have some of those things, which is unfortunate because those people will never truly know that none of those things are the answer to being happy. happy derives from the word happening which is really referring to a momental feeling, so we could go with content, which is a more appropriate word.

money, success and women made me less happy, as it does everyone. family and doing my best to live as a good person made me happy. and having a positive mindset eventually allowed me to feel content, well maybe 95% content.

even trying my best to be a good person as an atheist-agnostic along with all those blessings mentioned above did not fill the void that was there. i was content, but nowhere near complete.

i think all humans have this feeling, this is likely the feeling that resorts in wanting to believe in a deity. something programmed.

call me a fool Retro, but i feel complete. and im not an idiot.

i have a reason to love, or always attempt to love every single thing on this earth. as much as i sin everyday, i feel guilt immediately, and i do my best to not let it happen again, because i care about myself and the people who live in the world around me.

atheists can do all of those things, i am not arguing that.


Retro, do you feel complete?

i hope you do one day buddy, as i hope everyone does.

 

[RetroGrow]

i like buddhism, its like taking Jesus' philosophy and taking away Jesus. mixed in with some universalism. its pretty good advice, too bad it came from a man, so it isnt perfect. but still good advice, maybe not enough authority to commit to as a religion.

That's funny! You just outed yourself as the arrogant preacher that you are. FYI, Buddhism preceded Jesus by 500 years. So it must be that Jesus plagiarized Siddhartha Gotama. Not very nice of a man pretending to be god to plagiarize the ideas of the Buddha. Buddha never claimed to be perfect, unlike your hero who plagiarized him. But your man/god must be perfect, because his followers proclaim it to be so. I better be careful what I say, because you are in contact with the deity, and he may smite me. The arrogance of belief. Too, too funny!!!!
Thanks for the laugh!!!
And don't forget the words of Einstein, who is my hero: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can change this."

Einstein was so much smarter than Jesus.

 

[Mad Lab]

That's funny! You just outed yourself as the arrogant preacher that you are. FYI, Buddhism preceded Jesus by 500 years. So it must be that Jesus plagiarized Siddhartha Gotama. Not very nice of a man pretending to be god to plagiarize the ideas of the Buddha. Buddha never claimed to be perfect, unlike your hero who plagiarized him. But your man/god must be perfect, because his followers proclaim it to be so. I better be careful what I say, because you are in contact with the deity, and he may smite me. The arrogance of belief. Too, too funny!!!!
Thanks for the laugh!!!
And don't forget the words of Einstein, who is my hero: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can change this."

Einstein was so much smarter than Jesus.

I am aware of Buddhas history, thanks for that though.

I did not say Buddha had influence from Jesus, nor do i believe that Jesus could have had much influence from Buddha.

I do agree that both philosophys are very peaceful, humble and generous. which is few and far between with man-made religions.

but once again, no authority in one, just good advice until you accept the reincarnation theory. advice on how to live is one thing, man-made ideas (not even theories) about after-life or reincarnation would likely need authority to be believable/acceptable.

arrogant? lol, show me an example of someone that isnt arrogant, you? ha, joooooker...


Einstein is smarter than Jesus. lol did you just say that? thats funny. and irrelevant.

 

[siftedunity]

there are fools of science and religion. not one more than the other.

science is a blessing, that we can understand so much to the point we can help solve our problems, if you think laptops and ipads are good things, thats kind of funny(to me personally).
i believe more harm than good comes of the technology you speak of. if you dont have 10 year old kids with ipads and the access to the internet, claiming i am a pan-sexual, lol, you may not agree with me. But as much as we could use this technology for good, too many ignorant people abuse it, look at our culture these days, yes our parents said the same thing, but that doesnt mean it doesnt get worse and worse with every generation. where will we end up?

(no, im not referring to my own children)

likely technology advancement will eventually be the demise of the human race, if something else doesnt happen first.

the question is: is technology good for the future of the human race?

my opinion and most scientists: nope

if a laptop or internet is bad, why are you here?

and you speak of ignorance but actually people are far more aware of the bigger world than you or your parents at that age.. and I think that's why you have an negative feeling about ''all this modern stuff''. your stuck in the past unwilling to accept change.
if anything, ignorance increases more as you back in generations.

there is no scientist who has ever said that advance in science will be bad for the future. if anything, our survival depends purely on science. this planet will one day be uninhabitable, when it is we will need that science to survive in space or elsewhere.

no offense to you because you replied to my post very politely.. but looking at your post is kinda like listening to grampa about his woes and how kids should be in church and the internet is the devil.. where is this world going? lol

I wont even touch on the fact that you love jesus, I really cant have respect for anyone who believes in a religion that has been responsible for more deaths than can be calculated. Christianity is anti science and pro apocalypse, not sure how you feel that is less detrimental than science lol. since science is saving lives every day and religion is destroying them daily.

 

[RetroGrow]

if a laptop or internet is bad, why are you here?

and you speak of ignorance but actually people are far more aware of the bigger world than you or your parents at that age.. and I think that's why you have an negative feeling about ''all this modern stuff''. your stuck in the past unwilling to accept change.
if anything, ignorance increases more as you back in generations.

there is no scientist who has ever said that advance in science will be bad for the future. if anything, our survival depends purely on science. this planet will one day be uninhabitable, when it is we will need that science to survive in space or elsewhere.

no offense to you because you replied to my post very politely.. but looking at your post is kinda like listening to grampa about his woes and how kids should be in church and the internet is the devil.. where is this world going? lol

I wont even touch on the fact that you love jesus, I really cant have respect for anyone who believes in a religion that has been responsible for more deaths than can be calculated. Christianity is anti science and pro apocalypse, not sure how you feel that is less detrimental than science lol.

Exactly. Well said. But be careful. Believers will be gunning for you like those cartoonists in France/Denmark. How many people have been killed in the name of god? Countless millions. Believers have a license to kill non-believers, kind of like James Bond.

 

[Mad Lab]

if a laptop or internet is bad, why are you here?

and you speak of ignorance but actually people are far more aware of the bigger world than you or your parents at that age.. and I think that's why you have an negative feeling about ''all this modern stuff''. your stuck in the past unwilling to accept change.
if anything, ignorance increases more as you back in generations.

there is no scientist who has ever said that advance in science will be bad for the future. if anything, our survival depends purely on science. this planet will one day be uninhabitable, when it is we will need that science to survive in space or elsewhere.

no offense to you because you replied to my post very politely.. but looking at your post is kinda like listening to grampa about his woes and how kids should be in church and the internet is the devil.. where is this world going? lol

I wont even touch on the fact that you love jesus, I really cant have respect for anyone who believes in a religion that has been responsible for more deaths than can be calculated. Christianity is anti science and pro apocalypse, not sure how you feel that is less detrimental than science lol.

i have a facebook, that i rarely use, but nontheless i use.

do i think facebook is good for the youth? no. MOST USERS agree that it is counterproductive and they abuse it too much.

do i think its good that 8 yr olds have smartphones? no, not many people do.

its like alcohol. so much more bad then good comes from it, but alot of people still have issues with controlling it even understanding that principle.

no scientist said technology is a bad thing? i will find something here for you in a second, thats funny. what about nuclear arms? thats not a good example? lol...

its ok if you cant have respect to me for believing in Jesus. i will still try to respect you for not understanding christianity and giving a bad name to it by saying it is anti-science.

do i really seem anti-science to everyone here?

is there christians giving other christians a bad name for doing just what you did? yup, alot of them.. doesnt mean christianity is flawed.

you make assumptions and also do what Retro did, judge a philosophy/theology based on its abuses? please reread my posts to Retro regarding the catholic church (im not catholic) and why judging a philosophy on abuse is kind of high school dialog.

jesus says dont kill. a christian kills. you blame it on religion? kinda funny. its mankind. even jesus says: you will still likely do what i advise you not to. because that is the truth we all know dont we. he doesnt say he will make you perfect and a non-sinner does he? i dont want to say it but i feel this argument is childs play. but i believe you to be more intellectual than Retro, with a better argument soon.

not many intelligent non-theists would agree with you on this one. theres other topics they would jump on, but not this one.

 

[Mad Lab]

here ya go:

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/three-minutes-until-doom/384758/

Technology is a wonderful thing, but like all wonderful things, men have a tendency to twist it to their own means.

Einstein once said, “Technological progress is like an ax in the hands of a pathological criminal.” This reminds me of another great quote, from 1970, coincidentally: Pogo cartoonist Walt Kelly stated, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”
This is a blog about technology, or one specific area of it, anyway. Maybe this article will make you think a bit about this subject.

To me, technology, like a handgun, is neither good nor evil. It just is. What is good or evil depends on how it’s used. The human race has access to absolutely amazing things these days. We have an emerging noosphere in the form of the Internet. What I wonder about is how all this technology and knowledge will be used. What’s it going to be like in another 40 years or so? Will we still be here?

 

[siftedunity]

i have a facebook, that i rarely use, but nontheless i use.

do i think facebook is good for the youth? no. MOST USERS agree that it is counterproductive and they abuse it too much.

do i think its good that 8 yr olds have smartphones? no, not many people do.

its like alcohol. so much more bad then good comes from it, but alot of people still have issues with controlling it even understanding that principle.

its ok if you cant have respect to me for believing in Jesus. i will still try to respect you for not understanding christianity and giving a bad name to it by saying it is anti-science.

do i really seem anti-science to everyone here?

is there christians giving other christians a bad name for doing just what you did? make assumptions and also do what Retro did, judge a philosophy/theology based on its abuses? please reread my posts to Retro regarding the catholic church (im not catholic) and why judging a philosophy on abuse is kind of high school dialog.

jesus says dont kill. a christian kills. you blame it on religion? kinda funny. its mankind. even jesus says: you will still likely do what i advise you not to. because that is the truth we all know dont we. he doesnt say he will make you perfect and a non-sinner does he? i dont want to say it but i feel this argument is childs play. but i believe you to be more intellectual than Retro, with a better argument soon.

not many intelligent non-theists would agree with you on this one. theres other topics they would jump on, but not this one.

I don't understand Christianity? I went through my life in catholic school that was through 12 years of education and I had more religious education lessons than English language and writing lol

do I think a 10yr old should have a smart phone? no.. and I agree with some of the things you do too,
but why do you think some one who is pro science is happy to put a child at risk and has no morals?

it seems to me that you have a stereotype in your mind of what we behave like do to our beliefs but you have to remember our outlook isn't repressed by religion, its free. in not going to hell, because it doesn't exist, I don't believe in demons or spirits or a god at all.

your right about man though, we will ''sin'' or do things which are wrong. that's a given. religion doesn't come into it. but yes I will judge religion on its abuses because theres is far more abuse through Christianity than good it causes. its repressive and its not free.. and for me, I live to be free and I think everyone has that right- rather than to be brain washed as a child that if they have sex before marriage they will go to hell or have committed a sin. or whatever else. its simply untrue and just used to control people which imo is wrong on a fundamental level.

 

[bombadil.360]

By now I kinda regret having given k+ to Mad at the start of the thread lol...

Just to be clear though, my take is that science and religion are not mutually exclusive, however, when religious Mythologies are mistaken for scientific claims, or scientific discoveries are used to negate the metaphysical, all hell breaks loose and the dim-witts can't resist to expose their deep ignorance.

 

[shithawk420]

Oh my!I hope this is appropriate but I read a great book called Cains Blood.about a certain gene in our blood which is the root of evil.oh,and Christianity has kill more than anything."If evil existises surely it lies in the heart of man"

 

[Mad Lab]

it seems to me that you have a stereotype in your mind of what we behave like do to our beliefs but you have to remember our outlook isn't repressed by religion, its free. in not going to hell, because it doesn't exist, I don't believe in demons or spirits or a god at all.

your right about man though, we will ''sin'' or do things which are wrong. that's a given. religion doesn't come into it. but yes I will judge religion on its abuses because theres is far more abuse through Christianity than good it causes. its repressive and its not free.. and for me, I live to be free and I think everyone has that right- rather than to be brain washed as a child that if they have sex before marriage they will go to hell or have committed a sin. or whatever else. its simply untrue and just used to control people which imo is wrong on a fundamental level.

I was an atheist for almost 30 years, i only stereotype as much as anyone would, because we all do to an extent.

i am aware that every atheist has different beliefs, just as christians do. we can only converse the foundations of our beliefs. your beliefs do have a foundation: freedom and no authority. and whatever additions to that dont matter really, because everything is purely subjective, and wrong and right dont really have much room, which is always a problem.

my foundation is much broader yes, and it takes a long read and analysis of a old book. but we can converse based on those things.

im with you on not understanding christianity and also being raised catholic. my parents were athiests but my family was catholic and i ended up at a catholic school in las vegas for a bit.

forcing children to worship is not good in my book. teaching various theologies are, but not focusing on any one really especially worship, this is for the home if parents wish to force their children.

but also, the catholics are not true followers of christs philosophy. they add many scriptures that were not approved by the orthodox-christians that were the true followers of jesus 200 yrs after his death when Constantine put the bible together.

as i reminded Retro, the Romans only embraced christianity because they couldnt stop it as much as they tried. they tried destroying EVERYTHING relating to jesus in israel and still didnt help much. so Constantine likely decided to embrace the theology and use it to his advantage by putting a few twists on it.

So the evil Roman army that just got through with their conquests with Cesar not long before, now became the roman catholic church. but really it was just the roman army in disguse, executing the crusades in the name of god, so the people didnt rebel, because they were now very strong willed christians that now believed christs advice on killing for the wrong reasons. god was the only good excuse the romans could use to do what they wanted.

Catholics sponsor the bibles but contradict the message of jesus. again, thats why you see priests in silk robes and gold when jesus preached against that... he even preached in a potato sack basically... so if he wasnt good enough for gold and silk, priests who require it... come on.

The bible warns of the catholic church and the likes of, mormons etc. they take the orginal word and pervert it, because they understand the power jesus has. why do you think so many (successful) false religions based their claim on Jesus' church and not other religions? why are so many religions opposed to jesus (satanic, even elite groups, freemasons) which mock jesus christ. why mock something that doesnt exist?(masons on that one, not satanic churches- they do acknowledge). you dont see so many anti-buddha religions..

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

 

[Mad Lab]

By now I kinda regret having given k+ to Mad at the start of the thread lol...

Just to be clear though, my take is that , however, when religious Mythologies are mistaken for scientific claims, or scientific discoveries are used to negate the metaphysical, all hell breaks loose and the dim-witts can't resist to expose their deep ignorance.

lol hey bom, he kept asking for it. i tried to keep the god thing to a minimum, but some people in here think that god and religion ARE mutually exclusive. i never took that opinion. but because my beliefs dont match up with yours you want to start calling me a dim-witt, lol. fair enough. sounds like you dont really believe science and religion are not mutually exclusive?

 

[bombadil.360]

Mad,

No, you still don't understand. When someone states that science and religion are not mutually exclusive does not mean that I can use science to justify my personal beliefs.

That means that I can see the usefulness of science and technology and admire it, but understand that they are not a means to explain my religious beliefs, as my beliefs are essentially irrational and divorced from empirical analysis. Why? I already explained why a couple of times...

Trying to justify my personal beliefs using empiricism is an exercise in futility, as empiricism is the wrong instrument to look at the metaphysical. Just like metaphysical beliefs are the wrong tools to build empirical knowledge, hence the two are not mutually exclusive, but as such they are neither complementary of each other, big difference.

Peace.

 

[Mad Lab]

Mad,

No, you still don't understand. When someone states that science and religion are not mutually exclusive does not mean that I can use science to justify my personal beliefs.

That means that I can see the usefulness of science and technology and admire it, but understand that they are not a means to explain my religious beliefs, as my beliefs are essentially irrational and divorced from empirical analysis. Why? I already explained why a couple of times...

Trying to justify my personal beliefs using empiricism is an exercise in futility, as empiricism is the wrong instrument to look at the metaphysical. Just like metaphysical beliefs are the wrong tools to build empirical knowledge, hence the two are not mutually exclusive, but as such they are neither complementary of each other, big difference.

Peace.

i completely agree, did i say something that implied otherwise?

im not using science to explain my religious beliefs.

im just telling some gentlemen the difference between the two, and when they start attcking my belief system, im responding.

i did not come here and start calling out atheist saying they are stupid. not once have i said this, or do i believe it.

can you count how many times people said believing in god was stupid?

 

[shithawk420]

Lol this whole subject is redundant. its all theoritcal anyway.how do you prove that we exist?quantum physicists will tell you the same thing.we don't know,will never know.not anytime soon anyway.can't we just get a bong?lol you guys know why the world sucks as we know it right?cuase of this very discussion.

 

[Mad Lab]

Lol this whole subject is redundant. its all theoritcal anyway.how do you prove that we exist?quantum physicists will tell you the same thing.we don't know,will never know.not anytime soon anyway.can't we just get a bong?lol you guys know why the world sucks as we know it right?cuase of this very discussion.

haha yes!

philosophy, whether its about god, the meaning of life, or physics(philosophical physics such as this thread topic) is redundant and will never be proved.

they always say, where physics end - philosophy begins

 

[shithawk420]

Ah,YES!how could I forget!!Monty Python's The Meaning of life suites this thread perfectly! this made my day!