New extraction technique? Rosin tech?

[Sunfire]

Random results do not equal scientific testing. Someone would need to use the same herb process both ways and then get both tested. Random tests of rosin do not show that it is more potent then bho.

Your right, it is not hard evidence, however one starts to notice patterns after a while. It takes a skilled cls operator, and most likely super dank material and dewaxing, whether with an accessory solvent or inline with di, to produce bho with numbers above 80% thca/9. Terpene's are a whole other matter that not only has to do with the operators techniques and equipment, but also has a lot to do with the vac purge which anyone who has done it a lot will openly admit it's a dynamic art form that even after years of practice, they still have not mastered. Most bho analytical reports I've seen from people that arnt experts, are very poor to the ones I've seen from people's rosin, who also are not experts, as I believe at this moment there are no rosin experts. The over all simplicity of rosin allows for less variables one needs to control. You are correct though, and I had previously stated as well, there is not that much hard science with rosin yet.

You forgot the starting material needs to be tested too, in order to show a control factor for comparison of numbers if one would like to produce percentages of loss or concentration in any of the volatiles.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Please stay calm, don't panic, no heresy is being taught. That guy meant the trichomes are dissolved and everything is mixed together in the solvent. It should be obvious that these people are not ignorant.

 

[snake11]

Please stay calm, don't panic, no heresy is being taught. That guy meant the trichomes are dissolved and everything is mixed together in the solvent. It should be obvious that these people are not ignorant.

It was stated that the cannabinoid molecules are dissolved then rearranged. Is this true?

 

[Sunfire]

starting to? its like ten years old this stuff bro, about that.

thc is lame by itself. the more and better terpene stew with it the better your stone.

Yeah it was about ten years ago kenny discovered the terps on the cold trap. Other people have been working towards this as well. I used the term "starting to" because I have not seen an absolutely undeniable outline of what terps do in combination with other constituents of the herb.

On one of the clear threads here on icmag, about 2 months ago, some scientist of sorts came out of nowhere and dropped a huge terpene bomb. He claimed he worked for a lab that was indeed outlining the effects of terpenes and said that different terps were being found useful for different ailments. He mentioned 4 diseases they were working with, I forget now but i remember one was glaucoma. I thought that was really cool, custom tailoring meds for the grannies.

There isn't much largely funded and openly shared research on this topic that I know of. Most of the smaller folks keep their research and techs to themselves. Tony verzura is a pretty cool guy that seems to find time to talk with nobodies like me. He assured he will release his tech and research when it is ready. He seems to be a pretty big name in the industry right now and is involved in multiple states, and tribal affairs as well. Can't wait for that! He gave some little tid bits of knowledge and it sure seems like he's on the next level.

 

[G.O. Joe]

It was stated that the cannabinoid molecules are dissolved then rearranged. Is this true?

He wasn't trying to say what you think he was saying. Of course butane does just strip it off the plant.

 

[Sunfire]

It was stated that the cannabinoid molecules are dissolved then rearranged. Is this true?

Obviously the molecules themselves are not being broken down into the elemental constituents. It's was a poor choice of definition and hash admitted to no knowledge of chemistry.

The main thing is the re arrangement of the matrix. This is why pho looks different and has different "stability" characteritics, as opposed to bho. Because the molecular matrix is not set well and is slowly moving. Same when you whip things into budder. This is the same concept behind nucleation and the auto budder effect as well. Have you ever seen pics of high pressure steam distilled hash oil? The shit dries into a true crystal matrix, looks really cool. I'm not sure but I belief this is the concept behind the definition of "stability" when it comes to hash oil, although I also am not sure if hat was the original intention of the definition. However. is something is "stable" it will remain in that form for a long time. Proper storage and presservation can help with that. If the matrix (molecular arrangement) is "unstable" then it is slowly moving and will change over time. In reality though everything is moving, even properly annealed glass isn't "stable" and you can see that in old windows on really old houses. The bottom of the glass plate is thicker than the top and I've been told that's one way they use to date really really old houses.

I will say though I feel rosin does the same. My observations of the auto budder effect on rosin, and the "stability" of it, has lead me to believe there's still a lot figuring things out to do with rosin. I've had many conversations off the Internet about this with others. The fact that sometimes you get auto budder sometimes and a nice clear soft shatter other times, is evidence that there is some sort of change because there's multiple results. My personal opinion is that the budder happens at lower heats, especially with moist flowers. I believe the moisture adds a steam distillation benefit and brings out more terpenes. The terps and moisture aid in nucleation and I have heard reports of auto budder with some samples in as little as a few hours. the temps could have something to do with molecular excitement which could change factors in friction and agitation of the oil molecules as they pass through the left behind material. Everyone seems to agree the auto budder product seems way more terpy. THIS IS ALL SIMPLY "THEORY" OF MINE.

I don't watch hash church anymore. More bro science on there than there is on the mag. Every time someone's like "omg next level shit at 1:46:27," or whatever the fuck, I go and look and I'm highly unimpressed or even disturbed.

Terpenes as a solvent (LHO, because they use limonene) is silly to me. Limonene has a higher boiling point than thc and a lot of it is left behind and the oil is always reported as having that citrus taste but I myself have never tried it.

Was that better whadeezlrg? It's so hard for me to hold 5 different thought in my head at once hehehehe!

 

[Sunfire]

So you post that bho rearranges cannabinoid molecules and reassembles them, then provide no evidence. You don't care about your chemist sources credentials. Then you state if you have doubts you do the research. Wow. Do some homework before spreading lies.

Lol, well to be fair, you have not provided any solid evidence either.

He didnt site any chemist's credentials, he sited some guy on hash church, which I wouldn't invest much in either.

I read the doubts and research statement being related to his "bioassays". You make it seem like it was grouped with the claim, and the chemist.

Spreading lies is a matter of perspective. I view it as presenting an idea or concept for conversation with the group.

Lets have more proper debate of arguements in a logical deductive manner on a point by point basis.

Emotions and personal attacks won't help anyone.

Bong rips for jesus!

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

a few things sunfire:

first i suggest you listen to the second link i posted up, it explains how the terpenes help the steam distillation process very clearly.

second, that windowpane stuff is bullshit. its been shown that panes of glass were made unevenly in the old days. it was rippled to begin with, and there is always a thicker end. they always put the thick edge down on the window when installing, naturally. if you want to call bullshit back, i will get you some information, cuz i have read exhaustive debate on this subject.

and for terpene and thc research, skunkman sam has been posting for years about the tests they did. thats where i found out years ago that terpenes are pretty key.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

So you post that bho rearranges cannabinoid molecules and reassembles them, then provide no evidence. You don't care about your chemist sources credentials. Then you state if you have doubts you do the research. Wow. Do some homework before spreading lies.

i love you snake11! good luck on your journey

 

[Sunfire]

a few things sunfire:

first i suggest you listen to the second link i posted up, it explains how the terpenes help the steam distillation process very clearly.

second, that windowpane stuff is bullshit. its been shown that panes of glass were made unevenly in the old days. it was rippled to begin with, and there is always a thicker end. they always put the thick edge down on the window when installing, naturally. if you want to call bullshit back, i will get you some information, cuz i have read exhaustive debate on this subject.

and for terpene and thc research, skunkman sam has been posting for years about the tests they did. thats where i found out years ago that terpenes are pretty key.

Lol dude, once again, I don't care for the bro science on hash church. I have another theory for how the extraction happens.

Terpene's are solvents, yes. However I don't see them helping a steam distillation process. Steam distillation is used to extract and isolate terpenes, not the other way around. So i feel like your switching up some definitions as I'm confused.

I will clarify something for you...STEAM WILL NOT EXTRACT THC UNLESS UNDER HIGH PRESSURE. The boiling point of water is 212F and will never be hotter unless under pressure. Thc is volatile at 252F? Or something close to that, some one correct me I forget. PEOPLE ARE EXTRACTING THC WITH STEAM. however it's a high pressure apparatus. There's a company in canada that makes the equipment and breedersteve is brokering a contract with them. The process will heavily decarb the product however but that could be a good thing for some people.

My theory...moisture expansion in the material helps push the product out of the material, it also aids in extracting more terpenes, as I had said previously. Some terpenes are volatile at 140F in atmosphere. Therefore 200F expanding water vapor will help extract those constituents of the material. It is not a steam distillation process at all, implying so means the water is your solvent for extraction (yes h20 IS a solvent) which is not true, nor could that little amount of water vapor ever suspend as much oil that is coming out. I think it's a simple matter of slightly exciting the molecules with heat and using pressure to leach them. Similar to how oil extractions have been done for thousands of years.

Lets just not due the Glass arguement about the windows. However I can say I have evidence to the movement of glass molecules when a piece is not properly annealed, a week later, right in front of you it cracks, you never even touched it. Or you open you glass case and a piece has a small Crack along a line of really "unstable" color or the color itself "checked". My main point was about molecular structure and movement as opposed to molecular composition and the bonds there of.

 

[EsterEssence]

Somebody start a thread ROSIN VS bho with poll... I would but i don't want that much affiliation with bho...

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

Lol dude, once again, I don't care for the bro science on hash church. I have another theory for how the extraction happens.

Terpene's are solvents, yes. However I don't see them helping a steam distillation process. Steam distillation is used to extract and isolate terpenes, not the other way around. So i feel like your switching up some definitions as I'm confused.

I will clarify something for you...STEAM WILL NOT EXTRACT THC UNLESS UNDER HIGH PRESSURE. The boiling point of water is 212F and will never be hotter unless under pressure. Thc is volatile at 252F? Or something close to that, some one correct me I forget. PEOPLE ARE EXTRACTING THC WITH STEAM. however it's a high pressure apparatus. There's a company in canada that makes the equipment and breedersteve is brokering a contract with them. The process will heavily decarb the product however but that could be a good thing for some people.

My theory...moisture expansion in the material helps push the product out of the material, it also aids in extracting more terpenes, as I had said previously. Some terpenes are volatile at 140F in atmosphere. Therefore 200F expanding water vapor will help extract those constituents of the material. It is not a steam distillation process at all, implying so means the water is your solvent for extraction (yes h20 IS a solvent) which is not true, nor could that little amount of water vapor ever suspend as much oil that is coming out. I think it's a simple matter of slightly exciting the molecules with heat and using pressure to leach them. Similar to how oil extractions have been done for thousands of years.

Lets just not due the Glass arguement about the windows. However I can say I have evidence to the movement of glass molecules when a piece is not properly annealed, a week later, right in front of you it cracks, you never even touched it. Or you open you glass case and a piece has a small Crack along a line of really "unstable" color or the color itself "checked". My main point was about molecular structure and movement as opposed to molecular composition and the bonds there of.

your theory.

seriously, please just listen to the one or two minutes in the second link one time, then discount it as much as you like. it may aid "your theory" (btw, what he is talking about isnt a theory ).

as far as your glass example, i am sorry but thats just facepalm dumb bro. i find it hard to believe you know much glass theory at all if thats your evidence. i wont even try to school you on it, like snake11, you can do your own research of you feel like learning about glass and stress in it, hows its stored, or relieved.

 

[Sunfire]

How the hell is it not his theory?!?!? Where the studies and evidence and numbers. I'll tell you why he doesn't have them, because it's the same reason I don't have them...

Problem 1, we can't get a microscopic camera inside the filter bundle, yet. Let alone a microscope itself.

Problem 2, we can't get pressure plates inside the filter bundle to see what the pressure REALLY is in there. I have no ideas for this.

Problem 3, we don't know what temp the center of the filter bundle actually is. Ape bought that thermal imaging gun to try to help and we have discussed ways to get inside there for readings but nothing solid yet.

so any ideas as far as temps, relating to steam, and terps are just theory with rosin as of now. The addition of pressure makes things even harder to figure out. Such as how much temp increase inside the filter bundle does the pressure add, and how is that effected at different pressures?

Does anyone know for sure what thickness, size, and shape of filter bundle is most efficient for rosin and WHY, especially in combination with different temps and pressures? Does anyone know for sure, with analytical evidence, what pressures and temps do to allow for different product such as a shatter, or a budder, or a cloudy waxy soft shatter? How about what pressures and temps extract more terps and thc without risking decarb? Does anyone know how much pressure is needed minimally at different temps? Does anyone know how much pressure is too much if there is even too much to be had? Give me some numbers before you say it's NOT theory.

These re all things I'm questing to figure out and there's a few others who are actually trying to figure it out, with scientific method, instead of just parroting some bro science from wanna be cool types.

How the hell does he know what actually is going on there? We need a microscope hovering over the process as it happens if we want undeniable evidence. That has yet to happen.

Basic diffusion is when a system of higher concentration migrates to a system of lower concentration. The pressure increases the concentration by volume. The heat allows the oils to be less viscous so hey can escape the system of higher concentration and enter the system of lower concentration (atmoshpere). That's a very simple answer. People are always trying to re invent the wheel and over engineer a AAA battery into a power plant that can fuel the world.

I've been following this constantly for a while, I've talked with a lot of intelligent people from socal up to canada about different theories of what's happening, especially in relation to terpenes, moisture, the inconsistent auto budder, and many other topics. No one has yet said here, right here, this is it, look at the video, look at the numbers and analysis data.

Holy shot dude I know all about glass stress. You want good cite. How about Homer hoyt's old ass book, I have it in the shop. I can go get you the exact page and line where he tells people how to make their own polariscope. With that device you can actually see with your naked eyes, the stress in the glass. The fact that I mentioned proper annealing shows I know how it's relieved. So do I need to go get the hoyt book out to cite your the page number and line number?!?!?!?!? You provide no evidence for your statements or a theory even. Please explain, in detail, why what I said is "face palm dumb." So you tell me then, if it's not from stress why does glass Crack after it comes out of the kiln and hasn't been molested is any way by external forces? I'm all ears. Let me call Loren stump, Cesare toffolo, Salvidore davide, Bandhu dunum, gionni toso and a few other of the masters, they are going to want to hear your thoughts on this.

You don't get it apparently, so save me that same tired ass line of "do your own research" if you cant properly explain it yourself. The stress is from the molecules not being lined up right, So they don't sit still (and actually nothing ever does but let's save that and potential quantum physics for another time). I've been blowing glass and making extracts and growing herb for over a decade, I have a general idea of these situations which is why I tried to use it as an analogy. So as to not fall victim to the fallacious straw man tactic, I'll return to my original point.

The stress in the matrix is what causes the instability.

Snake is right that one would have to use analytical of the same material used with both techniques but I feel that the features of the closed loop would determine a lot of factors. Especially with time and quality. High grade super clear rock hard shatter with 80%+ thc and lots of terpenes is a hard task to achieve and it takes more time than just whipping out 40-60% thc wax that has less terpenes.

Idk what's with the all the attitudes (not excluding myself) tonight, we are supposed to be on the same team, working together.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

maybe we are just having a disagreement which is not actually a disagreement. i believe you mistook me, and went off on a rant maybe i mistook you as well. but as i saw it, you were saying glass is a liquid, the windows drooping proves this, when i said thats not the case, i was refuting your postulation that although glass may crack at a later time from trapped stress,this in no way indicates that glass is a liquid, was my point, but maybe you werent trying to say that. who knows?

 

[Gray Wolf]

maybe we are just having a disagreement which is not actually a disagreement. i believe you mistook me, and went off on a rant maybe i mistook you as well. but as i saw it, you were saying glass is a liquid, the windows drooping proves this, when i said thats not the case, i was refuting your postulation that although glass may crack at a later time from trapped stress,this in no way indicates that glass is a liquid, was my point, but maybe you werent trying to say that. who knows?

As a non glass blowers outside perspective from my time in the commercial window design industry, I can attest that glass creeps with stress, the same as metal does, because they are both crystalline structures that flow at the grain boundaries with stress and time.

Sheets of glass do get thicker at the bottom as they stand in place, as does metal.

Glass has a modulus of elasticity close to that of aluminum at 10 X 10 to the 6th, vis a vis steel at about 30 X 10/6th, so it flexes about the same amount as aluminum under load, before reaching ultimate yield, which is about the same as the ultimate tensile, so it usually fractures along a grain boundary along the outer fiber, and propagates.

It is amazing how far it will flex, before reaching ultimate tensile and shattering, and scary to watch when destructively testing windows and doors for wind load requirements. The glass doesn't just shatter from the load, it bends so much it is shortened enough to jump out of the frame, and shatters suddenly straightening out again.

As a note, the fenestration glass manufacturing process has also changed from bending and flattening it it over a roller and between two rollers to smooth it out, to floating it on mercury. Float glass is not rippled like the older plate glass and doesn't have the fisheyes.

 

[youareaniceguy]

As a non glass blowers outside perspective from my time in the commercial window design industry, I can attest that glass creeps with stress, the same as metal does, because they are both crystalline structures that flow at the grain boundaries with stress and time.

Sheets of glass do get thicker at the bottom as they stand in place, as does metal.

Glass has a modulus of elasticity close to that of aluminum at 10 X 10 to the 6th, vis a vis steel at about 30 X 10/6th, so it flexes about the same amount as aluminum under load, before reaching ultimate yield, which is about the same as the ultimate tensile, so it usually fractures along a grain boundary along the outer fiber, and propagates.

It is amazing how far it will flex, before reaching ultimate tensile and shattering, and scary to watch when destructively testing windows and doors for wind load requirements. The glass doesn't just shatter from the load, it bends so much it is shortened enough to jump out of the frame, and shatters suddenly straightening out again.

As a note, the fenestration glass manufacturing process has also changed from bending and flattening it it over a roller and between two rollers to smooth it out, to floating it on mercury. Float glass is not rippled like the older plate glass and doesn't have the fisheyes.

Could you possibly take a moment to comment on rosin? It would be much appreciated.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Though I have just watched to see where the collective minds would evolve the Rosin process, while privately enjoying some fine Rosin by the extant JC and was motivated enough to get my own hair straightener for personal experimentation.

Clearly there is a market for the excellent product and I think it is a mistake to look to it to push the other processes out of the picture, until it can be scaled up so as to be commercially viable.

That is where I would personally suggest focusing before trying to prove one process should replace the other.

One place that the Rosin process clearly shines, is the ability of ma and pa to make their own dabbing concentrate, without resorting to flammable solvents, and do it safely in their own bathroom if they so desire.

Ma and pa don't need a lot, unless they require cancer sized doses, so it is a perfect solution to their needs, as it is for adult age little Joey whose not perpetually stoned, but for those requiring high oral/rectal/topical medical doses, not so much in its present state of evolution.

I've not been blessed with a large enough sample to winterize a batch to see if wax falls out, or run it through our GC, but now that our GC is in its new location, with spanking new Reztek column specifically selected for analyzing the mono through diterpenes, I will do so.

What often happens with waxy samples, when I mix the GC sample with the alcohol, waxes precipitate out even at room temperature, so that might be a test anyone could run as a rule of thumb check on their own sample.

We filter the solution before injecting, so those waxes won't show up on the GC printout.

 

[Gray Wolf]

From a commercial standpoint, the residual essential oils left behind after Rosin extraction could be solvent extracted afterwards, or just the mono and sesquiterpenes steam extracted.

Steam has long been used to extract the terpenes up to Diterpene, which are too large a molecule, with too high a boiling point to efficiently extract. Diterpenes and above are more efficiently extracted with solvents.

Material spread in a thin layer on screens over films, and run between screens and films that pass between heated rollers, or batch lots run between heated plattens could extract the Rosin and the pressed material pulverized and solvent extracted for lower grade extract requirements.

Subzero temperatures could aid in freeing the Rosin from the backing film. Maybe run the two backing films face to face between two chilling plates or rollers and then draw them over a tight radius to flake off the material, or run it under a scraper blade.

The stuff I've been sampling is aromatic, tasty, goey, and sticky, so subzero would most likely be required to embrittle it.

PS: I admire ya'll pioneering spirit and hope you keep pushing the state of your new art!

 

[youareaniceguy]

Awesome! Thank you for taking the time.

Is there anything about rosin (without testing, just speculation/hypothesizing) that would leave you to believe rosin is inherently flawed as some of these forums posters and Instagram users are labeling it?

Anything that just glaringly sticks out as to why it could not be on par with BHO given that all other factors going into each process are equal (imaginary world where yields and processing time/costs are all equal)?

 

[Gray Wolf]

Awesome! Thank you for taking the time.

Is there anything about rosin (without testing, just speculation/hypothesizing) that would leave you to believe rosin is inherently flawed as some of these forums posters and Instagram users are labeling it?

Anything that just glaringly sticks out as to why it could not be on par with BHO given that all other factors going into each process are equal (imaginary world where yields and processing time/costs are all equal)?

BHO is obviously better at retaining carboxylic acids, as the Rosin process itself decarboxylates the material.

Speculating/hypothesizing is somewhat like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, when products from both processes are available for empirical testing.

I find nothing flawed with the Rosin that I've personally sampled, nor see anything in a controlled process that should significantly lower the quality of the end product.

It ostensibly also extracts plant waxes, so some issues there with vaporizing, unless subsequently winterized.

Using kif rather than flowers sidesteps most of the issue with plant waxes, and demonstrably delivers an aromatic, tasty, effective product, so not sure what other anecdotal tests would be appropriate.

I see no fatal flaws with either process, and just different tools in the same toolbox and each has its niche.