New extraction technique? Rosin tech?

[Ringodoggie]

As a non glass blowers outside perspective from my time in the commercial window design industry

That's interesting. Only because I did the same thing for 20 years. LOL

My team was one of the first in the USA to bring tubular vinyl extrusions to the table for manufacturing residential replacement windows. Prior to that, it was mainly done only in Germany.

I did do a little curtain wall design and you are right about one thing.... the destructive testing is totally cool. We did a bunch of our testing at NCTL in York, PA.

Fun job. I kind of miss it.

 

[EsterEssence]

GW could you elaborate on the retention of carboxylic acid vs decarboxylates of the material.

 

[Ringodoggie]

Problem 2, we can't get pressure plates inside the filter bundle to see what the pressure REALLY is in there. I have no ideas for this.

Do a Google on Tactile Pressure Indicating Sensor Film. Most of the companies that make this will provide free samples.

Might work. Just tossing it out.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

Have you done enough bioassay to make a claim for a stronger or weaker effect from either bho or heat press? My father and I, and a few friends noticed within a day or two of testing, a much better high. Way more front end, especially visual effects. And somehow, people are less provoked to anger in debate. A very interesting side effect that a few of us agree on.

BHO is obviously better at retaining carboxylic acids, as the Rosin process itself decarboxylates the material.

i am not sure this is true with well made heat press extract. wouldnt a sample of extract exhibit some darkening, and flavor degradation? well made it comes out as light or lighter than bho made with the same material.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

Sheets of glass do get thicker at the bottom as they stand in place, as does metal.

i am going to send you info via pm to try show you other alternatives to what i am quite sure is a fallacy. like i said, i have witnessed exhaustive debate on it.



and for all the laypeople:

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C01/C01Links/www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/florin.html


as well a choice tidbit for thought:

"I'd rep the hell out of Julian as well if i could, for pointing out that antique bottles and even ancient roman glass hasn't deformed over rather expansive periods of time, so why would 100 year old window glass?"

 

[LyryC]

From a commercial standpoint, the residual essential oils left behind after Rosin extraction could be solvent extracted afterwards, or just the mono and sesquiterpenes steam extracted.

Steam has long been used to extract the terpenes up to Diterpene, which are too large a molecule, with too high a boiling point to efficiently extract. Diterpenes and above are more efficiently extracted with solvents.

Material spread in a thin layer on screens over films, and run between screens and films that pass between heated rollers, or batch lots run between heated plattens could extract the Rosin and the pressed material pulverized and solvent extracted for lower grade extract requirements.

Subzero temperatures could aid in freeing the Rosin from the backing film. Maybe run the two backing films face to face between two chilling plates or rollers and then draw them over a tight radius to flake off the material, or run it under a scraper blade.

The stuff I've been sampling is aromatic, tasty, goey, and sticky, so subzero would most likely be required to embrittle it.

PS: I admire ya'll pioneering spirit and hope you keep pushing the state of your new art!

Hey Gray Wolf,

Thank you for the time you take to share the abundance of information you know. I appreciate your dedication to the plant and the community to make everything better for everyone.

Thank you.

Good vibes and blessings,

Lyryc

 

[Gray Wolf]

GW could you elaborate on the retention of carboxylic acid vs decarboxylates of the material.

Above about 120F causes the carboxylic acids to start losing their carboxyl (cooh) groups in the form of CO2.

 

[Gray Wolf]

i am going to send you info via pm to try show you other alternatives to what i am quite sure is a fallacy. like i said, i have witnessed exhaustive debate on it.



and for all the laypeople:

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C01/C01Links/www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/florin.html


as well a choice tidbit for thought:

"I'd rep the hell out of Julian as well if i could, for pointing out that antique bottles and even ancient roman glass hasn't deformed over rather expansive periods of time, so why would 100 year old window glass?"

Thanks bro! An interesting flow of thoughts for sure!

The weight of the glass is enough that standing on edge, the crystal lattice will allow it to relive the compression stresses by slipping crystals past each other at their grain boundaries. Not rapidly, but over time enough to be measured.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

Above about 120F causes the carboxylic acids to start losing their carboxyl (cooh) groups in the form of CO2.

how long would that take though? a short press might subject it to this heat for a small amount of time, possibly very little if any material would undergo the transformation..

 

[G.O. Joe]

floating it on mercury.

I'm not proofreading your posts, but - the boiling point and other properties of mercury would indicate a preference for tin in that application.

Everyone is told in school that glass is a viscous supercooled liquid - which it is - and, it sags after many years. Whether it does is not important - it's something that's told, so you're going to hear it. The next easiest example to give is quartz, which is crystalline rather than vitreous silica.

 

[Sunfire]

First off, I never said glass was liquid.

I have a design that is capable of large scale production. The equipment is simple and easy to operate while still allowing control of a few variables. I'm currently in the patent IP phase. Next round of experiments that will have accompanied analytical testing will begin mid week after I fabricate more parts to enable these tests.

I can get you large samples to test all day gw. It's a shame though we live so far away. Idk if you have read my earlier posts as to the waxy mysteries of rosin, but please believe me there's something going on with relation of the temp, and pressure, involving the final product. I believe moisture, terpenes, and nucleation play a role but all I have is theory. I am definitely not the only one that has noticed anomalies either. I'd love to find some one locally to pull waxes from different samples to see what's going on there.

I also believe the beauty of rosin is its in the hands of the patients themselves. I want to start a movement of for the patients, by the patients. We need to keep things in the hands of the people and not let big business and big pharmaceutical companies takencontrol. If you follow the county and state level politics in california right now, it's scary.

Tony verzura is making some extreme progress with terpene isolation. He has given me little bits of knowledge, that I feel I shouldn't share publicly because he said he's still dialing in his work. He did say he tends on sharing it, but not until it's ready. I can say though that he's blowing my mind and I think he's working on a technique that will extract and isolate all three classes. Sounds like the tech has different stages, using water, no hydrocarbons, and no steam either. He's onto some truly next level business!

Rollers i feel will not work. That's an idea that many people have came to when I've discussed it with them. When you play with the rosin extraction, especially on large enough levels to see what it does and how it moves, you start to get an idea of the nature of the beast. I had many complex designs that failed miserably when i tested them. It's amazing how simple the whole thing actually can be. That's the first thing people are going to say when they see my current design, "that's so simple it's stupid." However it looks that way because I've spent months making it that way and I will pass the ease of use and affordability down the line.

when you have minimum decarb, the product is not sticky at all, well ok now that it's damn near summer stuff is getting sticky. But it can be like a soft shatter that is very handleable. All my decarbed samples are darker and stickier. Here is also where the weird auto budder factor comes in. With extremely low heat, the samples can auto budder in as little as a few hours. There's still a lot to figure out with the stability part. I'd also like to add here I've seen a bit of analytical of sift before it was pressed, and then the rosin after it was pressed. Terpene concentration increases for the most part, showing good presservation. Ape noticed with his analytical that one particular terpene sky rockets. Tony told me that heat and pressure can in fact rearrange the terpene molecules and form new, different terpenes. I'm amazed if that's true and that happens so quickly.

There will always be a little decarb with rosin I'm sure. I know you must have seen that graph from 1990 that shows the relation of decarb involving different temperatures and different times. If not I can post here for you all, I know GOjoe has seen it as I believe I stole it from him hehehe. Anyways, that graph shows us that at 200F or less, especially after only 30-60 seconds, there will be very little decarb. My design is unlike any other I've seen or heard of because you can actually control the pressure and do a nice hot, slow press if you purposely want to decarb.

how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin? I think the woodchuck would know. Tee hee!

Yes, moist flowers seem to have more wax and more auto budder effect, but the rosin from them seems to have more terps. I believe a mild steam distillation is taking place to allow that. I've been using.only kief as I've shown myself that flowers or trim are not viable for larger scale operations.

sweet ringo! Do you know if there's little strips that you can use to test heat too, maybe likes ones that show moisture content. Those would be so beneficial!

Color and texture can be indicators of decarb but analytical evidence is need for any certain claims.

ancient glass was much different. There was never any clear. They had lots of mineral and other things in there that act as a strengthening fiber. Most of the old glass samples as such were also buried underground as we know heat, and temperature fluctuations can effect stress. All I'm saying is let's be open minded to both sides of the topic. This is the same approach I'm taking to rosin. I don't know for sure and there seems to be a lot of hidden variables.

As i said, there will always be some decarb. I'm also seeing that there will be Sacrafice with larger rosin extactions. Just like anything, small handmade organic batches with love, will most always trump quality. I am currently working on minimizing that sacrafice. I have a slew of experiments to do, and I will spend the money for lots of analytical.

 

[Sunfire]

I'm not proofreading your posts, but - the boiling point and other properties of mercury would indicate a preference for tin in that application.

Everyone is told in school that glass is a viscous supercooled liquid - which it is - and, it sags after many years. Whether it does is not important - it's something that's told, so you're going to hear it. The next easiest example to give is quartz, which is crystalline rather than vitreous silica.

This was my point with stress and change over time. The crystal matrix in true form is strong.

Am I even using the proper definitions here? Is matrix the right word to describe the arrangement of molecules in relation to eachother? I know that term from gems and minerals but not sure if it's proper for this discussion but it's the only way I know how to try to describe it

Hashmasta-Kut look around on here for decarb. There's a lot of threads with a lot info that can give you a lot insight on the matter.

My theory goes inline with the microwave distillation. Supposedly, the university of Oregon says the 6 minutes microwave distillation produces better quality oils because it takes much less time as opposed to a 2-4 hour steam distillation process of lower temps. So even though we are using high enough temps to decarb, there's something to be said for time. I will include that graph in an attachment here.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

I'm not proofreading your posts, but - the boiling point and other properties of mercury would indicate a preference for tin in that application.

Everyone is told in school that glass is a viscous supercooled liquid - which it is - and, it sags after many years. Whether it does is not important - it's something that's told, so you're going to hear it. The next easiest example to give is quartz, which is crystalline rather than vitreous silica.

what they are told in school isnt necessarily accurate. Things are always being revised. I believe glass is known to be an amorphous solid by those who have studied the idea extensively. I will send you a link as well if you might like to read some more.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Crystalline organic or inorganic molecules have order through bonding in a certain orientation or combination of orientations throughout, and molecules in glasses also bond in a certain way, but randomly overall.
- Checking the wiki -
Yep. It doesn't seem to be this important.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

dead glass horse for sure

hey you know sunfire, that is interesting about the fast autobudder. I can add to that, as i had a sample that had been in the freezer for days. It helds it initial extract composition for a few hours no problem, but one time when i had the last bit of it, when i took it out of the freezer, within less than an hour it went from initial composition appearance, to a very white paste. fastest i have ever seen that happen to any extract, was definitely notable.

 

[Gray Wolf]

This was my point with stress and change over time. The crystal matrix in true form is strong.

Am I even using the proper definitions here? Is matrix the right word to describe the arrangement of molecules in relation to eachother? I know that term from gems and minerals but not sure if it's proper for this discussion but it's the only way I know how to try to describe it

In crystalline structures it is typically described as a matrix.

Hashmasta-Kut look around on here for decarb. There's a lot of threads with a lot info that can give you a lot insight on the matter.

My theory goes inline with the microwave distillation. Supposedly, the university of Oregon says the 6 minutes microwave distillation produces better quality oils because it takes much less time as opposed to a 2-4 hour steam distillation process of lower temps. So even though we are using high enough temps to decarb, there's something to be said for time. I will include that graph in an attachment here.

In blue

 

[Gray Wolf]

Crystalline organic or inorganic molecules have order through bonding in a certain orientation or combination of orientations throughout, and molecules in glasses also bond in a certain way, but randomly overall.
- Checking the wiki -
Yep. It doesn't seem to be this important.

Ceramic crystalline structures

file:///C:/Users/JD%20Ellis/Downloads/9780387095448-c1.pdf

 

[Gray Wolf]

how long would that take though? a short press might subject it to this heat for a small amount of time, possibly very little if any material would undergo the transformation..

How much fizz do you get on your hot nail?

 

[Gray Wolf]

I'm not proofreading your posts, but - the boiling point and other properties of mercury would indicate a preference for tin in that application.

Everyone is told in school that glass is a viscous supercooled liquid - which it is - and, it sags after many years. Whether it does is not important - it's something that's told, so you're going to hear it. The next easiest example to give is quartz, which is crystalline rather than vitreous silica.

You're right, it was tin and long ago. Old memories are unreliable.

 

[Ringodoggie]

Hey gang, just a word/warning to people who are NOT getting good results from their hair press.

I was looking mine over and I noticed when the plates closed they were very slightly concave. I ASSumed that it wouldn't be a problem because of the force I was placing on the unit while I was pressing it in the vise.

So, I took it to my shop and put it in the vise and started to squeeze. I put a flashlight under it so I could see the crack between the plates.

Much to my surprise, the more pressure I applied to the outside shell, the more the plates took on a concave shape.

So, I stripped this bitch down to her britches and .... LOL

Inside, was one of the PTC heaters that I bought on eBay for $5. LOL

But, the important thing that I found was that the plates were mounted on rubber bumpers that would actually force the plates apart as you pressed harder on the outer plastic shell.

Shit, no wonder my yields have been 10 to 15%.

I (once again) ASSume that the design was to allow the lock of hair to slide through easily without pinching.

So, I cut and twisted and turned and when I got done, the outer shell was gone and I was able to squeeze the aluminum frame that the PTC and ceramic plate were attached to. This allowed me to squeeze the concave shape out of the plates and press them flush.

Geeze, first couple squeezes were at least twice what I was getting before.

So, just a thought to give how ever many grains of salt you wish.

I'll run down and take a quick pic. A pic is worth a couple hundred words.

EDIT: OK, took a couple quick pics. You can see the little rubber bumpers in the pic. I made a temporary jig and I just rest it in that and slide in my parchment and tighten the vise. Oddly enough, my rosin flows up instead of down. ??