New extraction technique? Rosin tech?

[Hashmasta-Kut]

THIS also helps to explain why flowers and trim seems to require more pressure for a complete extraction and why the more melty the sift or wash, the less pressure seems to be needed as there is more motion of more excited molecules. Too much pressure will generate a lot of internal heat as the crevices and channels the oil flows through and over will be smaller and hence more grinding under pressure.

I dont buy your logic on this at all. From what i can see regarding flowers vs kif or bubble, is that you have in one case, mostly plant matter, that you need to extricate the resins from. In the other case, you have resin glands that need to be pressed and juiced. You need more pressure with flowers to separate the resin from the flower mass, nothing to do with molecule excitation.

And that part about the motion of the oil causing heat that raises concern compared to the heat from pressure, or that the heat from oil motion causes any concern at all, seems off kilter too.

 

[Grey_Fox]

Ok round 2 part 1

Fox that pdf was terrible lol! It was just about basic relationship with gasses and the tires analogy was horrible lol. People air down tires to get better grip. When rock crawling, at really low speeds, people air down to 5-15 psi to get better grip, which is why bead lock rims exist so you don't get a flat at such low pressures. Low profile tires and high end rims allow for lower pressures to get better grip and also the rubber compound of those tires are also very soft to get better grip. It's is true that the tires will heat and that will cause a greater internal pressure.

Oh man I wrote the last one so well, how do I do this again lol! OK so pressure is related to heat with the aid of motion. All atoms, and therefore molecules, are constantly in motion as they have electrons that never stop moving. However the mass of the electrons is essentially non existent. Everything is literally vibrating on some level. The denser the object the higher the vibration frequency it admits. The earth is 7.83 hertz and neutron stars can emit such a high frequency that it can be picked up with similar equipment that picks up radio frequencies. Compressing molecules cause them the vibrate andnrub against eachother but the heat is short lived and transfers to surrounding systems. If this wasnt true then the depths of the ocean would be much warmer, but its very cold down there. The material we are working with is not that dense, even when we compress it. But I think most people are under the misconception that the heat is constant. The heat generated is done so by motion but the pressure compounds that generation. Rub your hands on your jeans. At the same speed of motion more heat is generated when you apply more pressure. The idea that simple compression constantly generates heat is incorrect as the electrons contain no mass, it's the motion of compression that can generate heat, and motion under compression generates more heat but requires more force, energy is energy. The pressures we use are insanely low when compared to the earth's core that depends on the earth rotating to generate heat.

This relates to rosin in the idea that the excited oils are moving past and grinding on the material as it exits the platens. The more heat in the platens, the more excited the oils will be. The more pressure, the more heat the traveling oils will create. This helps to explain why some people swear they make great rosin a shirt press but those high temps they use I think are not in the sweet spot. This is also why I tell people too much pressure can ruin the oils. If we plotted a chart and made a graph I think the sweet spot of the curve will be 500-1500 psi and 180-220F respectively. THIS also helps to explain why flowers and trim seems to require more pressure for a complete extraction and why the more melty the sift or wash, the less pressure seems to be needed as there is more motion of more excited molecules. Too much pressure will generate a lot of internal heat as the crevices and channels the oil flows through and over will be smaller and hence more grinding under pressure. This also explains why in some of my experiments, too much moisture leaves the product and material with that burnt smell because all that extra excited water molecules is contributing to the internal heat.

Part 2: the chaos collision theory I created takes all of this into account, especially the frequency bit. But as I said before there are already complicated formulas that can help you compute expected physics in relation to heat and pressure but they are not simple. I can talk theory all day and I'm trying to keep this short but I've had this discussion with my partner and engineer and trust me, the heat created from the actual motion of compression is not some thing to think about bit the heat generated by the motion of the oils is. This also could help explain some things as far as the stability of the molecular matrix is concerned in regards to different temps being used. If you hit a certain temp, the matrix "sets" flash some budder with some excessive heat really quick and watch what happens.

This is what pisses me off about people who have utube shows and don't check their shit with Google before running off their opinions and stating them as facts. I doubt they even write anything down and try to organize their logic in a deductive fashion. No one seems to actually take into account the physics involved with the situation.

Recently I was fronted on by strait, again, when I was asking questions about the rufio platens. His response was that they are close to "auto collection" which was followed by a string of personal insults directed at me. Clearly that wasnt a proper answer at all and I didn't want to break his heart and tag him in my 4 month old post where I already achieved that with the now shelved paperless design. I also didn't mention blastfrompast already doing that as well. It's very clear to me that these people arnt leaders, they are egomaniac con artists. Some one who claims to be an engineer but doesn't even know what deflection is or understand thermal conductivity, is obviously a liar. And their designs clearly speak for themselves in those manners.

Interestingly enough, on the inverse, fox claims to be a simple carpenter but his actual real life experiences seems to have made these things almost instinctual as the platens he designed actually look extremely well put together from an engineering standpoint.

I stand by the common man who actually knows wtf they are doing and talking about while discarding the false prophets.

And Atlus shrugged, letting loose his knowledge upon the world.
Thanks for bringing the lesson to us good sir, was a fine read and well understood. I agree with your idea of the sweet spot, but can't say for certain on pressure as I haven't gotten into tons yet. But from what I've been reading and my own experience 160-220 seems like gold.

I also agree that link I shared was garbage, I should read myself before posting things next time I read it right after posting and should have just deleted that portion of my post.

Hopefully people will start to see that Rufio isn't someone with a safe product to use and he can return to doing other things. It's getting annoying seeing him get asked the clearly obvious flaws with his platens and having him give the most corporate answer someone could give to being called out while still "selling" what he has . I like the "close to auto collection" response, what does he even think he is conveying by saying this.

Thanks for the school lesson Sunfire, and thanks for being so confident in my skills, I am still learning and when strides are made the learning has only just begun.
I picked up a variable fan speed controller today from my buddy. He gets a very decent discount at a hydroponics store in town and I ended up paying 32.50 tax in for the same style that Ringo has and kindly posted about. Hopefully I can find some 120v chips to make good use of without having to wait or pay out the wazoo for.

Have a good day every one and sorry again for the bad science lesson I had provided via link, luckily Sunfire is here to hold every ones hands as we walk into the Fiyah.

 

[Sunfire]

Damn it! I was just going to edit that post and tone down the language and delete the false prophets paragraph all together but you beat me with a qoute fox lmao! Damn it this thread moves too fast lol!

I ain't holding anyone's hands dude. I'm pushing through this jungle of unknowns just the same. I actually learned a lot myself with that post. I googled stuff like a half dozen times and it really helps to put things in text to help think about it more.

Dude you can get a rotary dimmer for like 5 bucks. It should be exactly the same. The grow store ones try to claim they are better for brushless motors and won't burn put your motor. But that's not right. Idk maybe some one else know what their pitch is for why you should buy those and not a regular dimmer? But for those chips i guantee a cheap one will work.

I also just though about the tire analogy and it's tricky cause the file failed to specifically point out the heat comes from the friction of the tire and the road and that causes the expansion and higher internal pressure. The heat is NOT constant, once the tire stops grinding on the road it will cool and the pressures will return to what they were before the heat was applied.

HMK - you spicy man lol! I wasn't trying to sell anything so you don't got to buy it hehehehe, I joke, I joke.

I'm trying to explain how and why the oils separate from the flower mass. More pressure expedites the process. Molecular excitement has everything to do with extraction process.

The 180u tumbled kief i use has a lot of contaminants. I get maybe 50% return and a hempcrete brick is left behind, there's a lot of material that isn't oils. The idea I'm going with is that the more motion and molecular movement, the more friction and action there will be. These oil molecules have to bump and grind to actually move. Like a a vibrating toy moving along the ground. The denser the material, the more energy it will take to move it in this manner such as squishing a banana in your vice or squishing a a piece of wood. The density of oils matters greatly for this concept.

In a second perspective, as I mentioned before, with flowers and trim the oils will need to move over and through micro channels in the overall compressed brick of material. Flowers and trim have much less oil density then hashes. The more non oil, wax, terpene, water, and other components that wont extract, the more obstructions there are inhibiting the oils to escape. So moe pressure could help that situation with a faster, more compleyr extraction. The closer the channels are, the faster the oils will travel through them, and the LESS amount of oil will be trapped inside of them left behind. Too much pressure as I touched on before could potentially be bad and I personally believe that through my research. I also have noticed in my research that I can get equal kief returns at various pressures, which originally was a surprise, especially at lower pressures. I have noticed a greater return and faster extraction with higher pressures on flowers and trim but if it's too moist blow out is a bitch with them at higher pressures. I also pay close attention to what lots of other people say in regards to their experiences.


"And that part about the motion of the oil causing heat that raises concern compared to the heat from pressure, or that the heat from oil motion causes any concern at all, seems off kilter too."

I'm a little confused here, I don't understand fully. Compared to the heat from pressure? What I'm saying is that pressure doesn't magically make a constant heat source. Or else we would all heat our homes with highly compressed materials and the bottom of the ocean would be much warmer. The act of compression creates heat but just in the moment of the action. Once compression has stopped and energy is no longer being put into the system, the creation of heat from the action stops. The motion of the oils will create friction heat, and greater pressure will make the heat creation more intense, as in the hand rubbing on jeans analogy. This is a HUGE concern to me personally. That's why I mentioned my moisture experiments where I've noticed, with the same temp platens, way moist presses come out with that burnt smell and the spent material is noticeably darker color. Also water is a great conductor in comparison to plant material and I think that should also be thought about. The water will also take in more energy from the platen in the form of heat and carry that heat away from the platens and through/over the material and also mix with your desired extracted product. That it the same concept that all water cooling technology uses.

If I hit 10k words in one night do I get a reward or a dunce cap?

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

Well you know that depends entirely on the content

Anyhow, we shall all keep mulling over the data. The part about compression doesnt create a constant heat source is a no brainer though, thats dunce level explaining

 

[Mr. Roseberry]

I have a quick question that I hope is ok. Its not about press designs but about material preparation. I know it's best to press the material first into pucks or to roll it into tight "snakes". I watched the video with the snakes and it was very helpful. My question is do you grind up the material first? And is anyone using a die and arbor press for the pucks? I would think that would be quicker and more consistent than rolling each one.

Thanks

Mr. Roseberry

 

[Ringodoggie]

Couple quick comments.....

Am I the only one using Boveda packs to control and monitor humidity? I use 62 to 69 and I notice a huge difference in the smoke. I have not tested the different humidity levels in pressing rosin yet but I expect to see some considerable differences.


And, for you people using an arbor press and complaining about holding the lever down..... I had the same problem. I finally mounted it to a board and put it on the ground so I could stand on the lever. After many attempts to master this feat, I scrapped the arbor press and bought the Harbor Freight A-Frame bottle press and it is sooooooooo much easier. I don't recommend the arbor press at all. The Bottle press is only $79. I believe that's only a few bucks more than the arbor press.

 

[Mr. Roseberry]

Couple quick comments.....

Am I the only one using Boveda packs to control and monitor humidity? I use 62 to 69 and I notice a huge difference in the smoke. I have not tested the different humidity levels in pressing rosin yet but I expect to see some considerable differences.


And, for you people using an arbor press and complaining about holding the lever down..... I had the same problem. I finally mounted it to a board and put it on the ground so I could stand on the lever. After many attempts to master this feat, I scrapped the arbor press and bought the Harbor Freight A-Frame bottle press and it is sooooooooo much easier. I don't recommend the arbor press at all. The Bottle press is only $79. I believe that's only a few bucks more than the arbor press.

My boveda packs just came in the mail. I plan on trying them with my next harvest.

And I'm only interested in the arbor press for prepping the flowers. I think it would be quicker than the bottle press. I plan on buying the A-frame bottle press for rosin.

Mr. Roseberry

 

[heady blunts]

mr roseberry---

i do not grind any of the material.

sunfire was using a die or something to make rectangle bricks instead of pucks or snakes and that theoretically might be best since you have a very even density throughout and can match the shape exactly to your heat plates.

lately i've been using tea bags and trim and not pre pressing at all. i pay close attention when i pack the pouches to make sure the herb is evenly distributed and will fit properly on my hot plates. i weight each one to make sure they're the same size and i get really consistent results from press to press that way.

i wish i could post IG videos i got a nice shot of my early tests on the 6 ton shop press. i'm @heady_blunts on there if you wanna seek it out. definitely works amazingly!

i've got mad love for all of you. i'm using ringo's press suggestion, sunfire's steel bricks and packet inspiration, ganjapharmer's manual heating tech, i got to hone my rosin skills thanks to HMK's press being so easy and affordable to make, and everyone's contributions to this conversation have kept this all interesting and exciting and me motivated!

 

[athomewithkyle]

Does anyone have residue on their nail after 10-15 dabs of rosin? I've only been dabbing rosin recently and have been noticing a build up of residue on my nail after a session with my friends.

Note: we were taking some big dabs due to the sappiness of the rosin and a decent amount was probably left un-hit.

Could it be the plant material that got through in my rosin? I don't use screens, i just try to clean my rosin by hand and get as much as i can without digging into puddles of rosin to get 1 particle. I can't really see those small particles adding up to the amount of residue left on my nail.

 

[Sunfire]

Well you know that depends entirely on the content

Anyhow, we shall all keep mulling over the data. The part about compression doesnt create a constant heat source is a no brainer though, thats dunce level explaining

So I get a dunce cap then lol? Seems like that's what the hash church people are trying to imply with such a basic statement as "pressure makes heat." It's not that simple and that's why I went into so much depth with this stuff. I've been thinking about this for a long time now. Remember months ago when I said that everything they are saying is just theory? That's when I stopped watching cause they state really shitty theory as scientific law.

Roseberry - I created my own mold to pre press with. Often I have been thinking of its really the right way to go however. With hashes, sure, but with flowers and trim make sure your shit isn't bone dry or else the material crumbles alot and all that extra exposed and sheared surface area of plant mater will darker your product. Same thing with butane extraction as well. The proper moisture I think is key! Boveda packs sound awesome!!!! I want some nice humidors though cause I'm thinking more large scale.

I would highly recommend to not grind or mascerate the material in any way, that's a shortcut. I would take time time to gently break it up in smaller pieces.

Those a frame presses are cheap chinese and the super long press pin can't handle it and starts to warp over time. I took out the 6 ton jack and put in a 4 ton jack.

Kyle - yes there seems to be a good amount of residue. Try using coffee filters and see if that reduces it. Although rosin analytical results from everyone seems to indicate huge potency, I believe there is still a good amount of waxes in there.

"Blunts" (hahahaha) lmfao yeah I got that "brick" weed yo. 200 a pound fresh off the boat for mexico. Get it while it's still decarbed and wreaks of ammonia.

 

[athomewithkyle]

Kyle - yes there seems to be a good amount of residue. Try using coffee filters and see if that reduces it. Although rosin analytical results from everyone seems to indicate huge potency, I believe there is still a good amount of waxes in there.

Sunfire have you tried experimenting with de-waxing rosin at all? Is such a thing even possible without introducing a solvent, such as alcohol?

 

[Sunfire]

Yes of course you can but that seems like defeating the purpose with solventless extracts. If using hashes you'll have a lot less wax then with flowers but even still the trich heads have a wax coating. Would you dewaxing melty water hash?

I have some super buddery stuff that I'm sure has a lot of wax. My buddy always dewax his personal bho cause he says the waxes fuck up his chest and make him cough. I gave him some of this Hella buddery rosin and it didn't make him cough at all or make his chest hurt. He was a pretty smitten kitten that day as it was the insanely terpy sour D.

 

[GanjaPharma]

http://http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0084AA2LK/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1444186914&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=Blue+Magic+18003&dpPl=1&dpID=51GRQ8bfOkL&ref=plSrch

Been making...things.

Found this stuff...felt I must share. Strong as shit. Better than any jb weld I've used. Huge high temp rating.

 

[athomewithkyle]

Yes of course you can but that seems like defeating the purpose with solventless extracts. If using hashes you'll have a lot less wax then with flowers but even still the trich heads have a wax coating. Would you dewaxing melty water hash?

I have some super buddery stuff that I'm sure has a lot of wax. My buddy always dewax his personal bho cause he says the waxes fuck up his chest and make him cough. I gave him some of this Hella buddery rosin and it didn't make him cough at all or make his chest hurt. He was a pretty smitten kitten that day as it was the insanely terpy sour D.

Rosin budder is most definitely different than BHO budder, IMO at least. I'm not a big fan of BHO budder. But rosin budder..... ooooooooo how I love it

The only roughness I get in my throat from the rosin, I think is from the moisture that's in it when I decide to take a dab after it was shortly pressed.

 

[cyphaman]

Rosin budder is most definitely different than BHO budder, IMO at least. I'm not a big fan of BHO budder. But rosin budder..... ooooooooo how I love it

The only roughness I get in my throat from the rosin, I think is from the moisture that's in it when I decide to take a dab after it was shortly pressed.

right on dude i couldnt agree more there! i find that sometimes the buddered vs the shatter version has a better terp profile on the dabs haha but i dont mind the extra mono terps either! ive had some sour og and trainwreck budder on me and the trainwreck i liked better when it was stable, the og my god ...became super gassy and just like the flowers after a couple days in the heat. interesting stuff .... i hate solvents now unless they are handled by absolute pro's , even then my lungs definitely feel the difference!

 

[cyphaman]

Sunfire -round2 part 1 was epic thanks for sharing!! im getting ready for bed after a 14 hour work day but will check out more tomorrow.

heady blunts -great that the new press is working well! Have you tried coffee filters for flowers? sunfire mentioned it to me months ago and it has been my go to only more recently! its super super cheap and effective, doesnt snag any oils either and you can stack or fold with filter still on and repress (if needed)

the cost of the tea bags and the waste was also getting to me, i like the unbleached but im not picky.

 

[heady blunts]

cypha---

hell ya! coffee filters work great!

i don't buy those fancy silkscreen teabags. i had ordered a bunch of paper tea bags for another project and they ended up being very convenient filter pouches for rosin!

i paid $25 for 400, so it's way more than the stack of melita coffee filters i've been slowly working through, but also not gonna break the bank.

i mostly press trim so the pouch is kinda convenient, plus the #1 size fits my steel bricks perfectly.

i'll keep using them until i run out, then we'll see if i like them enough to order more or if i'll just go back to the coffee filters.

gratuitous rosin porn!

 

[Ras Mason]

supah nice!
how do you guys use the coffee filters with the flowers any tips on the shape you use the filters and-or¨granule-o-metry¨ of the herbs?
thanks
rm

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

Hi Ras, its about time you came too! People usually press flower in parchment paper with no coffee filter, and in whole form, compressed into a ball or snake, nice and damp material.

Cypha, why use coffee filters or teabags for flower? Are you not using parchment too, or just the coffee filter...?

 

[slowandeasy]

supah nice!
how do you guys use the coffee filters with the flowers any tips on the shape you use the filters and-or¨granule-o-metry¨ of the herbs?
thanks
rm

I would like to know the same thing please! I have tried it 3 times, and the coffee filter soaks all of it up...it never makes it thru the filter. What amI doing wrong? How much are you using in the #1 coffee filters? Best folding technique? I have some decent trim, but I don't want to waste it. It just seems to make a really dry puck, with rosin soaked up by filter. Nothing on the parchment. The material is slightly dry, but not excessive. There must be something I am doing wrong. Thanks for the advice! Oh yeah, are you guys running different temps with the filters or change anything vs non filter?