Mycorrhizae and fungi products comparision

[MJtheIndicator]

I'm don't know this from experience…

I'm don't know this from experience…

I don't have time to find said sources but I can vouch for the information being accurate, with the 2 known species being glomus intraradices and glomus mossae.

In reading through what Matt Rize put together in a blog concerning inoculants, he states: "Here is what I've gathered from the pros on these inoculant products...

...Only endo mycorrhizae associate with cannabis and Glomus intraradices is the most versatile and aggressive endo strain and is the strain with the highest propagules. You will notice that there are other strains with lower counts. These will still associate and have specific strengths either for certain conditions like soil pH and other environmental conditions or specific plant parameter advantages. Our VAM endo is not fortified with pure cultures of bacteria, although there are beneficial bacteria present in the product. Because they are not cultured individually and then blended in the final product they can't really be guaranteed for specific CFU's and therefore are not listed on the label. That being said, even though G. intraradices is the most aggressive and versatile As far as Trichodermas go, if you search the scientific database you can find examples of mycorrhizae having synergistic effects with them"

This sounds like a manufacturer in conversation with Rize. Note the usage "most versatile and aggressive", this insinuates there are less versatile and less aggressive glomus. Validation comes with the phrase, "other strains with lower counts", this would admit others beyond Glomus intraradices and mosseae do in fact associate with cannabis e.g. pH, environment etc.

I agree that Glomus intraradices and mosseae are the most often tested in relation to metals, cadmiums or pathogens and such efforts therefor present them as the only "worthwhile" fungi. If this is an issue of colonization and symbiosis, it still does not discount the presence of other glomus and/or the pathogens they encounter. We desire obligate symbionts to function fully, but if we get caught up in life cycle or debating an annual vs. perrenial and the true value of symbiosis we are just ignoring a spectrum of fungi and attempting to sell Glomus intraradices and mosseae as the cannabis penicillin.

However, if there is definitive citation showing cannabis does not want to have anything to do with any other AM fungus then I would be delighted to know. If such an article regards symbiosis then I hope I have mentioned such a relationship isn't the knowledge I am pointing to.

When we forage through a forest populated with a one dominant species of tree we do not expect to only find one type of mushroom, but we do find differentiation and varying degrees of symbiosis.

If we are worried trichoderma will bully the mycorrhizae, one solution might be to introduce mycorrhizae first let it establish itself, then present the trichoderma to allow it to either annihilate or morphologically find a way to fit in; survive.

 

[intotheunknown]

Very interesting thread going, glad its still up and running.

Just picked up some xtreme gardening's brand MYKOS
which contains Glomus intraradices RTI-801 @ 80 spores per gram in powder form.
29.99 at the local dro store

anyone used this stuff yet?
Gonna give it a go, and run a side by side with a 4th run ROLS, and Ill post results if any as I go. But honestly, I dont think I will actually see much of a difference.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

I guess my question would be...Can one apply too much Myco? Such as the Great White product. It's what I've got.

I was looking to apply 4 oz's in 30 gallons and wetting down about 100 gallons of soil.

 

[Microbeman]

In reading through what Matt Rize put together in a blog concerning inoculants, he states: "Here is what I've gathered from the pros on these inoculant products...

...Only endo mycorrhizae associate with cannabis and Glomus intraradices is the most versatile and aggressive endo strain and is the strain with the highest propagules. You will notice that there are other strains with lower counts. These will still associate and have specific strengths either for certain conditions like soil pH and other environmental conditions or specific plant parameter advantages. Our VAM endo is not fortified with pure cultures of bacteria, although there are beneficial bacteria present in the product. Because they are not cultured individually and then blended in the final product they can't really be guaranteed for specific CFU's and therefore are not listed on the label. That being said, even though G. intraradices is the most aggressive and versatile As far as Trichodermas go, if you search the scientific database you can find examples of mycorrhizae having synergistic effects with them"

This sounds like a manufacturer in conversation with Rize. Note the usage "most versatile and aggressive", this insinuates there are less versatile and less aggressive glomus. Validation comes with the phrase, "other strains with lower counts", this would admit others beyond Glomus intraradices and mosseae do in fact associate with cannabis e.g. pH, environment etc.

I agree that Glomus intraradices and mosseae are the most often tested in relation to metals, cadmiums or pathogens and such efforts therefor present them as the only "worthwhile" fungi. If this is an issue of colonization and symbiosis, it still does not discount the presence of other glomus and/or the pathogens they encounter. We desire obligate symbionts to function fully, but if we get caught up in life cycle or debating an annual vs. perrenial and the true value of symbiosis we are just ignoring a spectrum of fungi and attempting to sell Glomus intraradices and mosseae as the cannabis penicillin.

However, if there is definitive citation showing cannabis does not want to have anything to do with any other AM fungus then I would be delighted to know. If such an article regards symbiosis then I hope I have mentioned such a relationship isn't the knowledge I am pointing to.

When we forage through a forest populated with a one dominant species of tree we do not expect to only find one type of mushroom, but we do find differentiation and varying degrees of symbiosis.

If we are worried trichoderma will bully the mycorrhizae, one solution might be to introduce mycorrhizae first let it establish itself, then present the trichoderma to allow it to either annihilate or morphologically find a way to fit in; survive.

Reading that Matt Rize stuff is headache city. That quote was taken from me regarding the 2 sorts of endomycorrhizal. It was not intended to mean that it only associates with these two species, as there are many wild species, not even named. The information came from a review of studies of fungal hemp associates and those were overwhelmingly the naturally occurring species. The few others were not commercially available. Because Intraradices are the easiest to obtain commercially in large numbers it makes most sense to use them.

Trichoderma, as you mentioned should be purchased separately IMO.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

Thank you for your eloquence and clarity Microbeman.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

I guess my question would be...Can one apply too much Myco? Such as the Great White product. It's what I've got.

I was looking to apply 4 oz's in 30 gallons and wetting down about 100 gallons of soil.

The product contains ectomycorrhiza, which cannabis has no use for. The ecto is taking up space in the propagule count, for cannabis farmers its just filler.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

The product contains ectomycorrhiza, which cannabis has no use for. The ecto is taking up space in the propagule count, for cannabis farmers its just filler.

I guess that means ok?

 

[MJtheIndicator]

I guess that means ok?

This is the product's application method

 

[Swollencalyx]

Great thread! I use Down to Earth and PHC Bio Pac. I feel PHC is to expensive but has huge diversity and is pretty much a tea bag. I have had great results with with BioAG products as well. MycosApply is commercial grade and works well. But like stated earlier. It takes a a long time for myco's, endo and ecto to get established. Recycle that soil, create diversity and you're golden.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Kinda funny how in an "organic subforum" the discussion is morphing to which "cocktail of mycorrhizae" are best for cannabis plants ("feed the plant" with endo only) and ignoring/discounting/omitting the benefits to the soil ("feed the soil" with both endo/ecto).

Allow me to emphasize a few items from MJ's post--

"...If this is an issue of colonization and symbiosis, it still does not discount the presence of other glomus and/or the pathogens they encounter. We desire obligate symbionts to function fully, but if we get caught up in life cycle or debating an annual vs. perrenial and the true value of symbiosis we are just ignoring a spectrum of fungi and attempting to sell Glomus intraradices and mosseae as the cannabis penicillin.

However, if there is definitive citation showing cannabis does not want to have anything to do with any other AM fungus then I would be delighted to know. If such an article regards symbiosis then I hope I have mentioned such a relationship isn't the knowledge I am pointing to.

When we forage through a forest populated with a one dominant species of tree we do not expect to only find one type of mushroom, but we do find differentiation and varying degrees of symbiosis."

If one wants a complete "symphony of soil"...it seems to me the best option is to have a "full orchestra" (endo/ecto)--than limit oneself to a "string quartet" (endo...no ecto). In otherwords...what is the harm of having both? Having a symbiotic soil relationship that is "more than the plant needs" is not a bad thing in my world. Mimic nature!

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

If one wants a complete "symphony of soil"...it seems to me the best option is to have a "full orchestra" (endo/ecto)--than limit oneself to a "string quartet" (endo...no ecto). In otherwords...what is the harm of having both? Having a symbiotic soil relationship that is "more than the plant needs" is not a bad thing in my world. Mimic nature!

And that's whats important. Well said. I can't stress why having a recycled soil is so much better and freshly recycled even more so.

I've done the side by sides with freshly recycled and new mixes with and without myco products and the results were very noticeable in Tomatoes. Even the dandelions near the pot runoffs were considerably larger. Like 16 inch tall dandelions with with humongous leaves.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Timing is important too....smarter people than me, said I should:
1. Build fungi colonies first (endo/ecto)
2. Wait a week or so later before inoculating the soil with bacteria colonies (bacillis strains, trichoderma, etc)
3. And regularly provide food for the microherd (in addition to "same usual suspects" (organic inputs) that most of us feed the microherd with, I also include "raw milk")

So many mych products also contain a goodly amount of bacteria---and my simple mind wonders: of the bacteria included with the mych products, and how much is immediately consumed by the new fungi colony being inoculated (mychs)? Lots? Little? What % of the bacteria remains and becomes colonized/established in the soil? My guess is 50/50. Hence I have two inoculants on my shelf: fungi and bacteria.

 

[Microbeman]

Kinda funny how in an "organic subforum" the discussion is morphing to which "cocktail of mycorrhizae" are best for cannabis plants ("feed the plant" with endo only) and ignoring/discounting/omitting the benefits to the soil ("feed the soil" with both endo/ecto).

Allow me to emphasize a few items from Microbeman's post--

"...If this is an issue of colonization and symbiosis, it still does not discount the presence of other glomus and/or the pathogens they encounter. We desire obligate symbionts to function fully, but if we get caught up in life cycle or debating an annual vs. perrenial and the true value of symbiosis we are just ignoring a spectrum of fungi and attempting to sell Glomus intraradices and mosseae as the cannabis penicillin.

However, if there is definitive citation showing cannabis does not want to have anything to do with any other AM fungus then I would be delighted to know. If such an article regards symbiosis then I hope I have mentioned such a relationship isn't the knowledge I am pointing to.

When we forage through a forest populated with a one dominant species of tree we do not expect to only find one type of mushroom, but we do find differentiation and varying degrees of symbiosis."

If one wants a complete "symphony of soil"...it seems to me the best option is to have a "full orchestra" (endo/ecto)--than limit oneself to a "string quartet" (endo...no ecto). In otherwords...what is the harm of having both? Having a symbiotic soil relationship that is "more than the plant needs" is not a bad thing in my world. Mimic nature!

That is not my post!

 

[EclipseFour20]

Sorry you are right...you just quoted it...I will correct my post. Thousand apologies!

So what's your guess as to the percentage of bacteria included in mych products, are immediately consumed by the new fungi colonies? 50/50?

 

[Microbeman]

Timing is important too....smarter people than me, said I should:
1. Build fungi colonies first (endo/ecto)
2. Wait a week or so later before inoculating the soil with bacteria colonies (bacillis strains, trichoderma, etc)
3. And regularly provide food for the microherd (in addition to "same usual suspects" (organic inputs) that most of us feed the microherd with, I also include "raw milk")

So many mych products also contain a goodly amount of bacteria---and my simple mind wonders: of the bacteria included with the mych products, and how much is immediately consumed by the new fungi colony being inoculated (mychs)? Lots? Little? What % of the bacteria remains and becomes colonized/established in the soil? My guess is 50/50. Hence I have two inoculants on my shelf: fungi and bacteria.

Trichoderma is fungal.

Believe it or not cannabis has a simbiotic relationship, a mycorrhizal relationship with endomycorrhizal fungi, not ectomycorrhizal fungi (according to current science).

There are hypotheses, mine included that there are some other (root) endophytic fungi (fungi imperfecti) which associate with the roots of cannabis with a varying interface but this far from proven.

There are hypotheses that some mushroom species serve to process boiavailable nutrients for annuals such as cannabis and even network them from rootzone to rootzone. Some of these, such as puffballs, pine mushrooms, meadow mushrooms are indeed ectomycorrhizal to some tree species. This is also not yet proven as far as I know.

 

[Microbeman]

Sorry you are right...you just quoted it...I will correct my post. Thousand apologies!

So what's your guess as to the percentage of bacteria included in mych products, are immediately consumed by the new fungi colonies? 50/50?

No worries. I just don't want to see it appear in the New York Post that MM said this

 

[MJtheIndicator]

If one wants a complete "symphony of soil"...it seems to me the best option is to have a "full orchestra" (endo/ecto)--than limit oneself to a "string quartet" (endo...no ecto). In otherwords...what is the harm of having both? Having a symbiotic soil relationship that is "more than the plant needs" is not a bad thing in my world. Mimic nature!

Until we see studies carried out that the cannabis itself directly benefits from ecto, I consider it manufacturer's filler. However, if one has a high concentration of deadwood in their mulch or prefers shavings in their soil then ectomycorrhizae might find a place. Studies would have to show the affect of ectomycorrhizae and if birch, dipterocarp, myrtle, beech, willow, pine, rose living or dead is required and so forth. Ecto is not a vascular transport, but the point made about this being a soil discussion is well taken.

My personal feeling about a soil mix in this regard leans towards bio-char, carbon elements from degraded wood and potash etc. ectomycorrhizae might have a more difficult time in such a mix, but I'm certainly not telling farmers to stop making mulch from trees. At this point we are discussing compost... So if farmers want to treat their compost with ectomycorrhizae it makes sense as the compost might benefit from it, but I'm attempting to distinguish the plant's direct benefit from ecto. Cannabis is not a woody plant (allegedly), so until otherwise noted endomycorrhizal fungi particularly as an inoculent is my own personal focus.

With that being said I hope not to veer off into mulch and compost territory within this thread out of respect for the OP. And to be fair, the post you are quoting from never mentions ecto, the context of the post regarded arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus, Glomus intraradices and mosseae. In response to another user mentioning a product with high ecto count is where I was discussing cannabis' and non-beneficial ectomycorrhiza. Do I believe cannabis growers are using this product to treat mulch and compost solely? No I do not and I believe the manufacturer knows this too, considering their market strategy, they know exactly who buys it and why. If you want to convince me cannabis growers purchase the product for its inclusion of ectomycorrhiza, it might not work, but a less informed public is a more graciously spending public in any manufacturer's view.

 

[King Soloman]

Best dry transplant myco product : Extreme Gardening "Mykos"
Mykos 30 was better for soil with its natural and organic amndmts but has been discontinued for now.

Great white and Orca from Plant solutions works amazing and does wonders
The Orca is more water soluble, but the Great White is packed with vitamin B

 

[MJtheIndicator]

There are hypotheses that some mushroom species serve to process boiavailable nutrients for annuals such as cannabis and even network them from rootzone to rootzone. Some of these, such as puffballs, pine mushrooms, meadow mushrooms are indeed ectomycorrhizal to some tree species. This is also not yet proven as far as I know.

They have found nitrogen to transfer.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

I guess my question would be...Can one apply too much Myco?

I feel the same curiosity. Humboldt Nutrients - White Widow