Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[Microbeman]

then we get into microbes
There is a new gardening trend of adding microbes to the soil under the assumption that the soil ‘needs microbes’. I’ve looked at this myth in more detail in the post Soil Microbes. In summary; the soil already has lots of microbes and adding a bit of tea is not going to make much of a difference.

Think about what you are doing when you make the tea. You are creating an incubator for microbes. You are providing the moisture, the food and the right oxygen levels to grow microbes. But which microbes are you growing? You have no idea know.

The reality is that along with the ‘good’ microbes you might also be growing ’harmful’ ones. You could be growing microbes that will make you or your plants sick. Tea that is aerated can contain Salmonella and E. coli both of which can prove to be deadly to humans. Remember the contaminated lettuce? That was E. coli contamination. You could also be growing microbes that are harmful to plants.

The process for making compost tea is not selective – you grow whatever is in the pot.

I am confident that the risk is low. But why take the risk when the benefits of compost tea are at best, minimal?
unless you have a lab no one knows what there brewing as in microbes and with the billions of microbes still un found or named
And any microbe introduced to the wild by man has never been recaptured how can you capture or fight something you cannot see

On closing note i do make teas EWC teas from my own worm farm and can honestly say i see no significant difference or better health or growth in plants vs non tea plants

Yes and you can get e-coli in your peanut butter from wiping your bum but you wipe it anyway.

Certainly e-coli can grow in an ACT environment but if you have good quality [v]compost and use good methods chances of getting the bad form of e-coli dominant are negligible.

Everyone decides for themselves what they wish to use in their gardening. I can say that ACT worked profoundly well for me and others I know. Even in commercial farming. Because you did not have success could speak to your practices and is not necessarily applied to all.

 

[Microbeman]

Mycorrhiza is a type of fungi that is very important for plant growth. Companies have started packaging them and promoting them to consumers. At first they were sold as an additive to soil, but now you can find them added to many soil and soiless products.

Your soil already has mycorrhiza so you don’t need to add them.

There are hundreds and maybe even thousands of different types of mycorrhiza, some of which are very specific to certain varieties of plants. Commercial products, at best, contain 4 types. Many products contain fewer types. You don’t know that the ones in the pail are the ones your plant needs!

Mycorrhiza are fairly sensitive to high temperatures. If the container holding them gets too warm, like sitting on a truck too long, they die. You have no way of knowing that the product you buy actually contains living mycorrhiza. It may just be a very expensive, useless white powder.


Probiotics for soil is the same idea as probiotics for your intestines. They are a combination of microbes that you buy and add to your soil.

How do you know if they are living? You don’t.

Will they live in your soil environment–remember microbes only grow in environments that suit them? You don’t know.

Probiotics for soil is just another way to fleece you of your money.

Keeping Soil Microbes Happy
Your soil already has lots of microbes. Don’t add more using commercial products or compost tea. The secret is to provide the microbes you already have with a home they love. How do you do that? Feed them.

Microbes eat and digest organic matter. Keep adding compost, manure, plant cuttings, wood chip mulch etc, to your soil. Just growing plants in the soil will provide organic matter for microbes to eat. Disturb the soil as little as possible. No rototilling–it destroys microbes. Hoe as little as possible for the same reason. Walk on the soil as little as possible–compaction kills microbes.

And that is how you grow healthy plants no need for all the crap being spewed as its needed Its not
build a decent organic base soil and all them microbes alone will do the job
its all a marketing scam add benificials etc and people fall for it

I agree with this post except that mycorrhiza is not a fungi. It is an expression which describes the symbiotic relationship between roots of plants and mycorrhizal fungi. I won't go further on this as there is already at least one good thread on mycorrhizal fungi in the forum inclusive of how to grow your own.

There is also at least one thread discussing how to build optimum soil structure for microbial habitat. Perhaps you could do a little studying(?)

 

[Weird]

Once again the strawman argument of scientific validation derails this thread.

If you don't think LOS methodology is safe then avoid it and this thread.

This is a thread for sharing methodology and success, conjecture without any experience is not beneficial.

So ironic that people embrace a plant based on anecdotal values (science hasn't validated much of the benefits we observe) but shit on growing methodologies out of ignorance.

 

[Microbeman]

Slipnot; I should ad that an error you are making is that the existent microorganisms in soil are all good....not necessarily the case.

 

[Slipnot]

I am not an advocate for spraying ACT on foliage but there are quite a number of studies demonstrating successful suppression of pathogens using non-aerated 'tea' (watery compost extraction) sprayed on foliage. The most successful used vermicompost.

Would love to see scientific data and peered reviews i would bet its still inconclusive

 

[Microbeman]

Would love to see scientific data and peered reviews i would bet its still inconclusive

I tried to upload some studies here but there is a size limitation. I have not by any means gone through all the studies but I began organizing them over a year back and got sidetracked by other things. I have about 200 as I recall. If you contact me, I can find a way to get some to you.

I did post some of the citations someplace on this forum. (Not worthy of stickidom )

I do not know how experienced you are with reading scientific papers but most authors leave an 'up in the air' caveat type statement, like 'inconclusive', 'further studies are needed', etc.

I usually use 'not 100% conclusive' because....

There are also some studies which have gaping holes in them like the USDA & Can. Min. of Ag. studies illustrating e-coli growth in ACT.

It sounds to me like you may have been reading Linda
Chalker-Scott. (??)

 

[MJtheIndicator]

Are there any scientific studies aimed at the affects of soil compaction in container based LOS?

 

[Mikell]

Title only

No-till field

Conceptual framework for capacity and intensity physical soil properties affected by short and long-term (14 years) continuous no-tillage and controlled traffic

As close as I came within half an hour.

 

[Slipnot]

Title only

No-till field

Conceptual framework for capacity and intensity physical soil properties affected by short and long-term (14 years) continuous no-tillage and controlled traffic

As close as I came within half an hour.

A scientist was looking intently at a tabletop demonstration of soil porosity in samples of tilled soil and “no-till” soil. The result, and I quote: “The no-till samples provided more resistance to water infiltration while the tilled samples provided much less resistance and water moved more freely into the soil.”

I grabbed the phone and called Chris Kick, the farm reporter and journalist who broke the story, to make sure this was not a mistake and that I was interpreting the results correctly. “I think you’re telling me that tilled soil actually saves more plant nutrients and results in less water runoff and erosion than no-till soil,” I said. He sort of laughed. “Well, this is going to be open to various interpretations, I’m sure, but yes, that’s what the experiment was demonstrating.”
How far does BS run down the hill before we realize there is a tons of BS even from no till so called gardeners on this site

If this scientific demonstration is true, it could explain three “phenomena” that have appeared over the last few years in our corn and soybean fields. 1.) Many of us have observed an increase in the number and size of temporary ponds that are occurring in our leveler fields after rain. 2. Even more of us notice that after rain, our creeks flood more often and more severely than used to be the case. 3). Everyone has observed and scientists have documented the alarming increase in nutrient runoff, especially of phosphorus, into lakes and rivers. Could it be, in all these cases, that no-till farming is the culprit?

I am crowing in a very unseemly fashion because I have been saying this for years and because the very function of so-called no-till today is proving that I (and many others) might be right. Almost all farmers, in my neck of the woods anyway, are finding it necessary to do quite a bit of soil tillage but because they use a “no-till” planter, NRCS allows them to act out the farce of saying they are practicing no tillage. In fact, in my observations, and I was pleased that Chris Kick more or less agreed with me, more and more “no-till” farmers are tilling their soil quite a bit before planting.
But of course on sites like this someone studies no till an not even within 30 days has his no till garden going lol
You know anything and everything mixed into that cluster fuck of a soil specially perlite that is so natural even us farmers spread perlite on our fields by the billions of tons lmao NOT

Some should actually go out to some farm and touch there soil TBH its totally fucking different then your so call no till totally Different

Maybe people should stop reading on the lastest web garden trends and go visit some of the big boys just out side the city , or town or village you know a real FARMER
ThEy will honestly teach will teach you more in 30 mins then any person on this site or garden web site
Dam should of seen the lake this spring on my farm that was not there before but since using some acres for no till its there
Compaction in no till is true and what growers do on here behind closed doors we will never no kinda funny actually

 

[moses wellfleet]

A scientist was looking intently at a tabletop demonstration of soil porosity in samples of tilled soil and “no-till” soil. The result, and I quote: “The no-till samples provided more resistance to water infiltration while the tilled samples provided much less resistance and water moved more freely into the soil.”

I grabbed the phone and called Chris Kick, the farm reporter and journalist who broke the story, to make sure this was not a mistake and that I was interpreting the results correctly. “I think you’re telling me that tilled soil actually saves more plant nutrients and results in less water runoff and erosion than no-till soil,” I said. He sort of laughed. “Well, this is going to be open to various interpretations, I’m sure, but yes, that’s what the experiment was demonstrating.”
How far does BS run down the hill before we realize there is a tons of BS even from no till so called gardeners on this site

If this scientific demonstration is true, it could explain three “phenomena” that have appeared over the last few years in our corn and soybean fields. 1.) Many of us have observed an increase in the number and size of temporary ponds that are occurring in our leveler fields after rain. 2. Even more of us notice that after rain, our creeks flood more often and more severely than used to be the case. 3). Everyone has observed and scientists have documented the alarming increase in nutrient runoff, especially of phosphorus, into lakes and rivers. Could it be, in all these cases, that no-till farming is the culprit?

I am crowing in a very unseemly fashion because I have been saying this for years and because the very function of so-called no-till today is proving that I (and many others) might be right. Almost all farmers, in my neck of the woods anyway, are finding it necessary to do quite a bit of soil tillage but because they use a “no-till” planter, NRCS allows them to act out the farce of saying they are practicing no tillage. In fact, in my observations, and I was pleased that Chris Kick more or less agreed with me, more and more “no-till” farmers are tilling their soil quite a bit before planting.
But of course on sites like this someone studies no till an not even within 30 days has his no till garden going lol
You know anything and everything mixed into that cluster fuck of a soil specially perlite that is so natural even us farmers spread perlite on our fields by the billions of tons lmao NOT

Some should actually go out to some farm and touch there soil TBH its totally fucking different then your so call no till totally Different

Maybe people should stop reading on the lastest web garden trends and go visit some of the big boys just out side the city , or town or village you know a real FARMER
ThEy will honestly teach will teach you more in 30 mins then any person on this site or garden web site
Dam should of seen the lake this spring on my farm that was not there before but since using some acres for no till its there
Compaction in no till is true and what growers do on here behind closed doors we will never no kinda funny actually

We are all keen to learn, have you got any photos?

 

[Weird]

A scientist was looking intently at a tabletop demonstration of soil porosity in samples of tilled soil and “no-till” soil. The result, and I quote: “The no-till samples provided more resistance to water infiltration while the tilled samples provided much less resistance and water moved more freely into the soil.”

I grabbed the phone and called Chris Kick, the farm reporter and journalist who broke the story, to make sure this was not a mistake and that I was interpreting the results correctly. “I think you’re telling me that tilled soil actually saves more plant nutrients and results in less water runoff and erosion than no-till soil,” I said. He sort of laughed. “Well, this is going to be open to various interpretations, I’m sure, but yes, that’s what the experiment was demonstrating.”
How far does BS run down the hill before we realize there is a tons of BS even from no till so called gardeners on this site

If this scientific demonstration is true, it could explain three “phenomena” that have appeared over the last few years in our corn and soybean fields. 1.) Many of us have observed an increase in the number and size of temporary ponds that are occurring in our leveler fields after rain. 2. Even more of us notice that after rain, our creeks flood more often and more severely than used to be the case. 3). Everyone has observed and scientists have documented the alarming increase in nutrient runoff, especially of phosphorus, into lakes and rivers. Could it be, in all these cases, that no-till farming is the culprit?

I am crowing in a very unseemly fashion because I have been saying this for years and because the very function of so-called no-till today is proving that I (and many others) might be right. Almost all farmers, in my neck of the woods anyway, are finding it necessary to do quite a bit of soil tillage but because they use a “no-till” planter, NRCS allows them to act out the farce of saying they are practicing no tillage. In fact, in my observations, and I was pleased that Chris Kick more or less agreed with me, more and more “no-till” farmers are tilling their soil quite a bit before planting.
But of course on sites like this someone studies no till an not even within 30 days has his no till garden going lol
You know anything and everything mixed into that cluster fuck of a soil specially perlite that is so natural even us farmers spread perlite on our fields by the billions of tons lmao NOT

Some should actually go out to some farm and touch there soil TBH its totally fucking different then your so call no till totally Different

Maybe people should stop reading on the lastest web garden trends and go visit some of the big boys just out side the city , or town or village you know a real FARMER
ThEy will honestly teach will teach you more in 30 mins then any person on this site or garden web site
Dam should of seen the lake this spring on my farm that was not there before but since using some acres for no till its there
Compaction in no till is true and what growers do on here behind closed doors we will never no kinda funny actually

start a till thread and rock out with your cock out

this is a no til thread

if you don't see value in it ply it where it belongs

 

[Weird]

the only people who post shit and lie on the back end are the ones with a money agenda

you know the ones that sell organics supplies, minerals, books and the like

think evidence is that hard to produce? keep it up.

 

[Microbeman]

Slipnot; I guess only a dimwitted farmer would try making a comparison to farming and folks growing in small containers.

Occasionally a till is advantageous in a no-till farm setting, depending on the crop of course. Shallow tillage can help to break a crust.

What is it that you are so expert at growing and why do you produce gabble that is credited to some scientist with no citations, Some fictional BS which you imagine makes you correct about something.

I note you did not contact me for those studies. Right now you seem like nothing but a troll.

 

[B4URTIME]

I'd suffice to say that No-Till on a farm is quite different from No-Till in a indoor grow. Quite the difference IMO....

 

[Mikell]

I imagine including detritivores changes much.

But that is even more specific and less likely to yield search result.

start a till thread and rock out with your cock out

this is a no til thread

if you don't see value in it ply it where it belongs

You aren't very good at reading thread titles, eh? This is the second time I've pointed it out.

Third times the charm?

 

[Weird]

I imagine including detritivores changes much.

But that is even more specific and less likely to yield search result.



You aren't very good at reading thread titles, eh? This is the second time I've pointed it out.

Third times the charm?

score one for mikell

 

[Mikell]

You'll get one, one day.

Not on me, I'll be gone, but someone, one day.

 

[Weird]

actually growing weed ?

 

[HuffnPufferfish]

so i went to these "real farmers" but they dont know this 'soil' thing, its all rockwool son

 

[Mikell]

actually growing weed ?

Systems change, what is legal today is less so tomorrow. Time for a fresh-ish start.



One day I may even be vain enough to post pictures and seek approval.

Will my primary and secondary metabolism be up to par?

(You're out of the loop, I've dabbled a bit in that. Pictures that is. I've yet to meet one who doesn't seek approval in one form or another. A lot of liars, but no real dope.)

But I have much work to do on my ego before then. All sorts of Eastern philosophies I need to half adopt and understand even less.


HAH

I'll miss this bond of ours.