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Feel free. And I wouldn't even charge my usual fee.
The Pizza Tax.
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Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...
- Thread starter gaiusmarius
- Start date
Feel free. And I wouldn't even charge my usual fee.
The Pizza Tax.
So is there a down time for letting a living pot rest before you run it again? Or do folks add amendments to the soil somewhere mid flower for the next run? Would a person want a whole 2nd set of pots to mulch and amend while the first set's running then rotate? I wish I had more head room in these fabric pots. May have to stitch an extension on top. Would be dreamy to be dialed the whole time, correct amendments on schedule. Soil always perfect, that's my goal. Long ways off though.
Those were root bound btw, hard pots. Now in fabric 35's. Went light on the EWC but added a good hand full to worms to each pot. Added Vam to the exposed roots and watered in with a good tea. Organic liquid Cal and very small amt of Epsom is really helping now.
I did see something on adjusting soil pH. Unwashed Bio char to raise (pH 8) Washed BC is 6-7. Lastly Pine Bark to lower? Anyone vouch for that?
I did see something on adjusting soil pH. Unwashed Bio char to raise (pH 8) Washed BC is 6-7. Lastly Pine Bark to lower? Anyone vouch for that?
The trick is to make your base mix equal parts peat:compost:aeration
The high CEC (cation exchange capacity) in your compost will literally hold onto and capture the amendments you initially amended with. So add your nutrient kit to this base mix, and begin growing.
After every harvest you're going to want to return left over biomass to the mulch surface, to recycle that nutrition back into the system. Life, death, decay, repeat-type deal. The only amendments I add to my containers at the beginning of each cycle are kelp and occasionally karanja meal. Kelp is mainly for replenishing any mineral deficiency that may be coming about, and the karanja is sprinkled for any gnats that are attracted to the decaying mulch layer, as well as a balance of macro/micro nutrients. I also added a handful of red wigglers and a handful of european nightcrawlers to each pot to aid in tilling/aeration/creating enzyme rich humus. That's about it! Every cycle will grow healthier with the soil. I'm approaching my 6th cycle with no deficiencies:
I think you mean to say peat has a high CEC.
Compost CEC varies on ingredients, but typically hovers around 30-100meq/100g, while peat ranges 100-200meq/100g, varying on age, source, etc.
Hence, feed water water or feed water feed water in conventional nutrient peat/perlite systems. Though I believe the fertigators put the lie to both those methods.
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-238.html
If anyone wants to bone up on the fundamentals, the above is an easy read.
Compost CEC varies on ingredients, but typically hovers around 30-100meq/100g, while peat ranges 100-200meq/100g, varying on age, source, etc.
Hence, feed water water or feed water feed water in conventional nutrient peat/perlite systems. Though I believe the fertigators put the lie to both those methods.
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-238.html
If anyone wants to bone up on the fundamentals, the above is an easy read.
Wow, I never knew it was so high for peat. Holy shit.
Finished the chop. Dumped a couple pots out to see the root structure. There were voids where there was soil mix but no roots or very little if any roots. These had a bad deficiency, purple stems on whole plant regardless of strain plus bad leaf drop. I was going to dump soil in a pile and mix in more compost and EWC/Pigeon guano (composted) some Kelp meal and karanja as mentioned above. I imagine you all like no till but I figured that with my problems maybe I should re mix the soil? Add dolomite this time, I failed to do that first run.
Was thinking maybe they were getting shorted on water? I was hand watering this round. Would love to find a way to fertigate via drip lines strained compost tea at a 50:50 or 75:25 water to tea ratio.
Lastly is a qt of molasses too much for a 50 gal batch of tea? That was added to every batch last run.
Was thinking maybe they were getting shorted on water? I was hand watering this round. Would love to find a way to fertigate via drip lines strained compost tea at a 50:50 or 75:25 water to tea ratio.
Lastly is a qt of molasses too much for a 50 gal batch of tea? That was added to every batch last run.
Not too much black strap molasses as long as you do not overload with other food and have lots of air and agitation and run at least 36 hours.
The problem i think is people making teas thinking there feeding the herd when in fact the soil is depleted of everything there fore why bother
Your really only feeding the plants if your organic ratio is below what is needed micro's starts to die off end of story they will use the any remaining N and deplete soil even more
if that makes sense
I always stress every month or so add compost or greens so the carbon cycle keeps going ..
to think that a grower keeps making teas is going to solve the problem of depleted soil is ludicrous..
your only pro longing the agony.
people should think of teas as a activator to speed up the composition process
Your really only feeding the plants if your organic ratio is below what is needed micro's starts to die off end of story they will use the any remaining N and deplete soil even more
if that makes sense
I always stress every month or so add compost or greens so the carbon cycle keeps going ..
to think that a grower keeps making teas is going to solve the problem of depleted soil is ludicrous..
your only pro longing the agony.
people should think of teas as a activator to speed up the composition process
My use of CT is not to feed microorganisms, as you seem to state. What one does (or should be doing in making ACT) is growing a certain population of microbes to 1/ cycle nutrients in the soil or
2/ populate in the soil (or both) e.g. fungal hyphae may continue to grow throughout the soil.
What you are describing is pretty much limited to a situation where there is an abundance of uncomposted carbon in the soil (such as created with spikes and layers or wood chips) causing the 'bacteria/archaea' to use up available N to degrade it.
A well made CT should carry enough N in the microbial bodies, liquid and residual organic matter.
CT behaves pretty much the same as compost but at an accelerated rate. It also dies off quickly in most cases, so if you apply it, you will likely get an initial nutrient boost and microbes which do not thrive, as previously mentioned will die off or go dormant until the correct homeostasis generates activity.
I do agree with topdressing organic matter to replenish nutrients.
Buddyy
Member
I have just had that exact dilemma. at least 4 of 10 plants had mites. I'm guessing they came in with the stinging nettle and comfrey tea, so now I strain the brew through a cloth. The attack came close to end of flower and went unnoticed for a while. It looked like everything was going fine. I just got slack in checking the plants further back, when I finally noticed, infestation was in full swing. So it was damage control time. Affected leaves were thrown out, not mulched.
I've had my soil recycling and notilling for over a year and I love my soil, no way I was going to throw it out. Have already planted new clones into smartpots which had affected plants and am just foliar spraying them everyday with neem or just plain water or a rosemary water, the soil as well. Also keeping a keen eye on them.
Perhaps doing what you suggest to just add a layer of compost etc and letting it sit for some months, basically just amending/recycling would have been the safer option but I need all the soil I have ATM and am lazy so I prefer no till.
So I just have to step up vigilance and preventative measures. No big deal. Keep on truckin.
I've had my soil recycling and notilling for over a year and I love my soil, no way I was going to throw it out. Have already planted new clones into smartpots which had affected plants and am just foliar spraying them everyday with neem or just plain water or a rosemary water, the soil as well. Also keeping a keen eye on them.
Perhaps doing what you suggest to just add a layer of compost etc and letting it sit for some months, basically just amending/recycling would have been the safer option but I need all the soil I have ATM and am lazy so I prefer no till.
So I just have to step up vigilance and preventative measures. No big deal. Keep on truckin.
20sackzack
Member
I recently re-read the microbeorganics page and discovered my act recipe was wrong. I was using 1 cup of vermicompost, 1 cup malibu compost, 1 tablespoon kelp meal with only one tablespoon of molasses per 5 gal of water
Apparently the recommend amount of molasses is .5% by volume so that would be about 6.4 tablespoons per 5 gal of water, correct?
I started a batch last night and used 5 tablespoons of molasses and it seemed like a lot. It just seems like a ton of sugar to be adding, but maybe not? Does all that sugar get broken down by the microbes?
Btw im using a minimicrobulator and brewing for ~36 hours
Apparently the recommend amount of molasses is .5% by volume so that would be about 6.4 tablespoons per 5 gal of water, correct?
I started a batch last night and used 5 tablespoons of molasses and it seemed like a lot. It just seems like a ton of sugar to be adding, but maybe not? Does all that sugar get broken down by the microbes?
Btw im using a minimicrobulator and brewing for ~36 hours
I disagree on many points for instance If you think about it for 2 seconds you will realize that this is a silly notion. Think about what you are doing in making tea. You take a handful of compost and you put it in a bucket of water. Microbes take over and start digesting the compost.
Your original handful of compost had a certain amount of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. No matter what process you use, you will never increase the amount of these nutrients in a plastic bucket (except for some minor organics falling in an uncovered bucket). The microbes might breed and grow and digest things, but the total amount of nutrients remains the same. In fact it might actually be less since some of the nitrogen might be converted to ammonia which evaporates into the air.
. The nutrient content (NPK fertilizer numbers) of say 500 ml of compost is 2.6 – 0.9 – 2 (average value for composted cattle manure; source Alberta Agriculture Department). If I now add this to a 5 gal pale (about 20 L), I still have the same ratio of nutrients, namely 2.6 – 0.9 – 24, but it is now diluted 40 times (500 ml to 20 L). The nutrient value of the tea is now 0.07 – 0.02 – 0.05. That is an extremely dilute fertilizer. For comparison human urine has a nutrient value of 11 – 1 – 2.5, that’s 160 times as much nitrogen as compost tea. Sure you can probably spread the tea over a larger area than a handful of compost, but if you do that the amount of nutrients added to the soil is negligible – so why bother??
The fact is that making tea from compost does not increase the amount of nutrients. It does not make the compost ‘go further’. If you want to add nutrients to the garden just add the compost directly. Your better off
Then there are many claiming spraying teas will word off disease
There are limited studies about disease reduction by compost tea, and the results are inconclusive.
The concept here is that the tea has a high concentration of microbes. When these are sprayed onto leaves they populate the surface of the leaves to such an extent that invading pathogenic microbes can’t take a hold. The good tea microbes out compete the potentially bad ones.
For this to work, the sprayed on microbes would need to colonize the leaves (ie live and breed on the leaves). This requires that the new environment, ie the leaf surface, has enough food for them and the oxygen levels are right for them.
Clearly, the oxygen levels would be high and so you can expect that anaerobic microbes would die out quickly. Anaerobic tea just won’t work.
The native microbes on plant surfaces are not well understood
There are limited studies about disease reduction by compost tea, and the results are inconclusive.
The concept here is that the tea has a high concentration of microbes. When these are sprayed onto leaves they populate the surface of the leaves to such an extent that invading pathogenic microbes can’t take a hold. The good tea microbes out compete the potentially bad ones.
For this to work, the sprayed on microbes would need to colonize the leaves (ie live and breed on the leaves). This requires that the new environment, ie the leaf surface, has enough food for them and the oxygen levels are right for them.
Clearly, the oxygen levels would be high and so you can expect that anaerobic microbes would die out quickly. Anaerobic tea just won’t work.
The native microbes on plant surfaces are not well understood
then we get into microbes
There is a new gardening trend of adding microbes to the soil under the assumption that the soil ‘needs microbes’. I’ve looked at this myth in more detail in the post Soil Microbes. In summary; the soil already has lots of microbes and adding a bit of tea is not going to make much of a difference.
Think about what you are doing when you make the tea. You are creating an incubator for microbes. You are providing the moisture, the food and the right oxygen levels to grow microbes. But which microbes are you growing? You have no idea know.
The reality is that along with the ‘good’ microbes you might also be growing ’harmful’ ones. You could be growing microbes that will make you or your plants sick. Tea that is aerated can contain Salmonella and E. coli both of which can prove to be deadly to humans. Remember the contaminated lettuce? That was E. coli contamination. You could also be growing microbes that are harmful to plants.
The process for making compost tea is not selective – you grow whatever is in the pot.
I am confident that the risk is low. But why take the risk when the benefits of compost tea are at best, minimal?
unless you have a lab no one knows what there brewing as in microbes and with the billions of microbes still un found or named
And any microbe introduced to the wild by man has never been recaptured how can you capture or fight something you cannot see
On closing note i do make teas EWC teas from my own worm farm and can honestly say i see no significant difference or better health or growth in plants vs non tea plants
There is a new gardening trend of adding microbes to the soil under the assumption that the soil ‘needs microbes’. I’ve looked at this myth in more detail in the post Soil Microbes. In summary; the soil already has lots of microbes and adding a bit of tea is not going to make much of a difference.
Think about what you are doing when you make the tea. You are creating an incubator for microbes. You are providing the moisture, the food and the right oxygen levels to grow microbes. But which microbes are you growing? You have no idea know.
The reality is that along with the ‘good’ microbes you might also be growing ’harmful’ ones. You could be growing microbes that will make you or your plants sick. Tea that is aerated can contain Salmonella and E. coli both of which can prove to be deadly to humans. Remember the contaminated lettuce? That was E. coli contamination. You could also be growing microbes that are harmful to plants.
The process for making compost tea is not selective – you grow whatever is in the pot.
I am confident that the risk is low. But why take the risk when the benefits of compost tea are at best, minimal?
unless you have a lab no one knows what there brewing as in microbes and with the billions of microbes still un found or named
And any microbe introduced to the wild by man has never been recaptured how can you capture or fight something you cannot see
On closing note i do make teas EWC teas from my own worm farm and can honestly say i see no significant difference or better health or growth in plants vs non tea plants
Mycorrhiza is a type of fungi that is very important for plant growth. Companies have started packaging them and promoting them to consumers. At first they were sold as an additive to soil, but now you can find them added to many soil and soiless products.
Your soil already has mycorrhiza so you don’t need to add them.
There are hundreds and maybe even thousands of different types of mycorrhiza, some of which are very specific to certain varieties of plants. Commercial products, at best, contain 4 types. Many products contain fewer types. You don’t know that the ones in the pail are the ones your plant needs!
Mycorrhiza are fairly sensitive to high temperatures. If the container holding them gets too warm, like sitting on a truck too long, they die. You have no way of knowing that the product you buy actually contains living mycorrhiza. It may just be a very expensive, useless white powder.
Probiotics for soil is the same idea as probiotics for your intestines. They are a combination of microbes that you buy and add to your soil.
How do you know if they are living? You don’t.
Will they live in your soil environment–remember microbes only grow in environments that suit them? You don’t know.
Probiotics for soil is just another way to fleece you of your money.
Keeping Soil Microbes Happy
Your soil already has lots of microbes. Don’t add more using commercial products or compost tea. The secret is to provide the microbes you already have with a home they love. How do you do that? Feed them.
Microbes eat and digest organic matter. Keep adding compost, manure, plant cuttings, wood chip mulch etc, to your soil. Just growing plants in the soil will provide organic matter for microbes to eat. Disturb the soil as little as possible. No rototilling–it destroys microbes. Hoe as little as possible for the same reason. Walk on the soil as little as possible–compaction kills microbes.
And that is how you grow healthy plants no need for all the crap being spewed as its needed Its not
build a decent organic base soil and all them microbes alone will do the job
its all a marketing scam add benificials etc and people fall for it
Your soil already has mycorrhiza so you don’t need to add them.
There are hundreds and maybe even thousands of different types of mycorrhiza, some of which are very specific to certain varieties of plants. Commercial products, at best, contain 4 types. Many products contain fewer types. You don’t know that the ones in the pail are the ones your plant needs!
Mycorrhiza are fairly sensitive to high temperatures. If the container holding them gets too warm, like sitting on a truck too long, they die. You have no way of knowing that the product you buy actually contains living mycorrhiza. It may just be a very expensive, useless white powder.
Probiotics for soil is the same idea as probiotics for your intestines. They are a combination of microbes that you buy and add to your soil.
How do you know if they are living? You don’t.
Will they live in your soil environment–remember microbes only grow in environments that suit them? You don’t know.
Probiotics for soil is just another way to fleece you of your money.
Keeping Soil Microbes Happy
Your soil already has lots of microbes. Don’t add more using commercial products or compost tea. The secret is to provide the microbes you already have with a home they love. How do you do that? Feed them.
Microbes eat and digest organic matter. Keep adding compost, manure, plant cuttings, wood chip mulch etc, to your soil. Just growing plants in the soil will provide organic matter for microbes to eat. Disturb the soil as little as possible. No rototilling–it destroys microbes. Hoe as little as possible for the same reason. Walk on the soil as little as possible–compaction kills microbes.
And that is how you grow healthy plants no need for all the crap being spewed as its needed Its not
build a decent organic base soil and all them microbes alone will do the job
its all a marketing scam add benificials etc and people fall for it
The extracted bacteria/archaea are consumed by flagellates and naked amoebae which utilize 10 to 40% of the nutrients for subsistence. 60 to 90% is released in ionic and plant available form. This nutrient boost is one reason for using ACT besides the others already outlined.
I am not an advocate for spraying ACT on foliage but there are quite a number of studies demonstrating successful suppression of pathogens using non-aerated 'tea' (watery compost extraction) sprayed on foliage. The most successful used vermicompost.
