Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[heady blunts]

i can't speak for TM's garden, but the way i conceptualize the success of my no till containers is based on what i learned from you and jaykush, MM. a robust population of soil microbes processing organic material to barter for root exudates.

i read ruth stout's no work garden book around the same time.

you all were saying the same thing: once the system is functioning well, you should be able to keep it healthy and balanced indefinitely simply by mulching with a thick layer of digestible material.

i've held tight on that conviction ever since.

i top dress at transplant time with a healthy layer of home made VC made from thermal compost and pre-amended with all the goodies save the liming material.

between the VC and several inches of a digestible mulch the plants seem to want for nothing and the soil appears healthy and active after a year and a half of perpetual cropping.

28 cycles! whew! sounds like a bicycle race!

 

[Mikell]

It is only advertised by people selling something

seems 99% of people get distracted by money

Guess that is why I live in one of the most expensive parts of the USA and still pay my bills with 2 lights

lol but these BAS kids are cute, if dollars had dicks they would all have green on their face

I haven't put any effort into tipping the scales, maybe it is time to talk to gypsy tell him how people are leeching his site for custy bucks

shame there aren't more people like you MM you seem to have your eyes on the prize regardless of personal opportunity

FWIW people with money interests fuck this thread up on the regular .. custy chumps tbh

if they where the growers they pretend to be flowers would pay their way

don't forget the fanboys who are forever in debt because it was the first tech they tried that actually worked for them

the distraction has kept anything new and congruent with the tech from being introduced since those guys left.

Mission accomplished.

And this is why no matter what, I will always love you. No gay, bro fam, jus reppin' lit fleek shit u fiyaman.

 

[Microbeman]

i just say "modified coots" as a shorthand of the soil recipe. i bought all the amendments locally at farm stores and garden centers fwiw.

jayKUSH was the first person on the mag that caught my attention. i basically joined to ask him questions. i miss his contributions

bluejayway is aka mountain organics and is still close with coot. he's just released some new botanical tincture products he's been working on. you can look him up on IG or gra$$city if you want.

you know you're my favorite logical gardener tho, MM

what happened to mr fistaa? i remember his posts well.

and as always much respect to 3LB, LC, and B1.

Thanks for cluing me in to Bluejay's whereabouts. Mr Fista posted a few times at TLG under a different name. Before that he posted at the site that Gas put together but got runoff for advocating no-till without the obligatory recycle between harvests. He is a serious university graduate student doing microbial research in a land far away.

There was an article in Hightimes (which I very seldom quote) which kinda makes my point.

http://hightimes.com/grow/growing-for-maximum-flavor/

What Is ROLS?

Recycled organic living soil (ROLS for short) is an indoor growing method that draws on a fact-based understanding of horticulture, botany and plant physiology coupled with the principles of soil science, organic farming, traditional agriculture and permaculture. In a ROLS garden, you’re nurturing a setup that creates a fertile living soil, full of microscopic organ- isms that “digest” food for your plants. You accomplish this by mixing a soil that has everything your microbial life needs to flourish: plant and mineral sources to break down into things your plants’ roots can take up; humic substances that act as a storage and delivery system for your nutrients; and aeration amendments to make sure your roots (and their micro- scopic friends) have plenty of fresh air. Once the soil is mixed, you fortify it with compost tea to kick off the microbial life and then give it some time for the soil to become fully populated. After a few weeks, you’re ready to grow some world-class organic plants!

Many ROLS growers empty their containers into a pile, bin, tub or trashcan, mix it with soil amendments, add water or compost tea, and give it six weeks or longer for the microlife to find its rhythm. Some ROLS growers (including MicrobeMan, BlueJayWay and SilverSurfer_OG) are pioneering a no-till method, in which they transplant a new plant directly into the same container they just harvested from. This allows them to take full advantage of the thriving microlife without any delays or hiccups in a busy production schedule. In a no-till system, rather than mixing amendments into the soil, the amendments are sprinkled on top and watered in with teas, allowing the soil to digest them and replenish itself. The no-till method takes advantage of the relationship between the plant’s root system and the microlife that develops in the rhizosphere (rye-zoe-sphere) or root zone.

Although there are some errors throughout it sort of outlines what my perception is. It does make it sound like us pioneers were just starting to work on no-till but you will find I came on here preaching no-till living soil when I joined in 2008 after having done it for over 10 years.

 

[heady blunts]

OG OG OG

 

[BurnOne]

This thread is long overdue to be a sticky.
Enjoy.
Burn1

 

[Microbeman]

OG OG OG

Original Gangster
or
Old Git
or
Over Grown
or
Ocean Grown ?
or
Orangutan Ganja

 

[Team Microbe]

Humic acids (& fulvic acids) are an extracted or mined high concentration of humus [do not confus this humus with the term lately applied to compost] or humic substances. In the industry it is mined or extracted from deposits of coal or leonardite or peat. It can be extracted from other sources (apparently) like vermicompost.

My expertise in this area is lacking and you are far better off doing your own research using Google scholar or http://worldwidescience.org/index.html or just plain Google being careful to read several articles and avoid sales pitches.

The only two pure sources of fulvic acid are alluvial soil (as you mentioned) and Shilajit

 

[Team Microbe]

What I guess I am thinking of is the ingredients of neemcake and some of the other similar goodies which really have very little to do with an ongoing no-till except as topdressed components, whereas the original mixes consisted of almost only stable (aged-composted) ingredients. (eg. peatmoss, soil, [v]compost, rock, clay, char [bark fines]).

I perceived the water only mixes as having all the nutrients included to carry the plant through to harvest and to be at least partially remixed between each batch.

Perhaps I have this wrong and KIS or BAS can chime in to correct me.

Are you saying that you have soil that you apply water to only over 7 growing cycles so far? The longest that I grew no-till was 7 years with at least 4 crops per year but we topdressed organic matter, used live worms, EM fermentations and compost tea.

The cc kit does have neem cake in it, yes that's mixed into the soil initially along with the common others that most of us here (oyster, kelp, crab, gypsum, etc) so it's a water-only mix, correct.

The first few cycles I added a pinch of neem and kelp meal at the start of each cycle, but from the 3rd cycle on I've let that be and haven't noticed a difference in plant health as of yet.

After a few cycles the entire body of soil gets turned over into EWC so I suppose you could say it's a stable mix, just not right off the bat. It's weird growing in lava rock and castings... I would've thought that my aeration would eventually be cut back but that doesn't seem to be the case fortunately. I will occasionally drench with a kelp tea, or Shilajit as of recently to replenish any lost mineral nutrition but for the most part I only mulch with spent biomass post-harvest and keep the straw layer topped off throughout each cycle. I think the key is returning that nutrition to the top layer, and always having a decaying layer of mulch underneath the straw, or whatever one may use as a top mulch

 

[Lapides]

.....

 

[Microbeman]

Team Microbe;

Do you mean that you are topdressing nutrients (e.g. organic matter)?

If so this is exactly what I mean from my stance and what was put forward long before the water only formulas. I could obviously be wrong but still contend that the main impetus for these mixes was to support one growing cycle, to be at least partially remixed or recycled thereafter.

Good on you and others if they have then gone on to allow this basic mix to come to life. When we had largish indoor living soil gardens our mixes were similar except we tended to use what we could find ourselves locally and had less of a drainage ratio, being more dependent on bugs n' worms and fungi to aerate.

When you add the neem cake and kelp, do you mean topdressing? If so then this is no different than we did, except we had no neem cake.

After a few cycles the entire body of soil gets turned over into EWC

Do you mean this occurs in the container with active worms?

EDIT: I just read through your No-till link and so answered my own questions. Looks good.

 

[Team Microbe]

Team Microbe;

Do you mean that you are topdressing nutrients (e.g. organic matter)?

If so this is exactly what I mean from my stance and what was put forward long before the water only formulas. I could obviously be wrong but still contend that the main impetus for these mixes was to support one growing cycle, to be at least partially remixed or recycled thereafter.

Good on you and others if they have then gone on to allow this basic mix to come to life. When we had largish indoor living soil gardens our mixes were similar except we tended to use what we could find ourselves locally and had less of a drainage ratio, being more dependent on bugs n' worms and fungi to aerate.

When you add the neem cake and kelp, do you mean topdressing? If so then this is no different than we did, except we had no neem cake.



Do you mean this occurs in the container with active worms?

EDIT: I just read through your No-till link and so answered my own questions. Looks good.

Mhmm, when I top dressed with kelp or neem I would just mix it into a half gallon of ewc and pull the straw back over the top of it. It seemed to work out well especially over time...

The best part is these containers can provide me with a brand new humus portion to future mixes (equal parts peat:humus:aeration) so theoretically the mix will triple in size if space allows for it every 3-4 cycles. The worms are the backbone behind no tilling indoors IME.

Thanks MM! You've always had the utmost class on this forum, I can respect that

 

[Sluicebox]

Going to have to add 8" strip of fabric to top of smart pots with safety pins or something. I recently top dressed with ewc and some rotted pigeon poo (light). Then layered with some moldy hay. Thick white roots everywhere now poking up into the hay. Able to cut way back on water/tea, and the plants responded very well. I'm at the top of my 35 gal pots now unfortunately. Very stoked this may get better next run.

I really like the above idea of running old soil through worm bins. I had planned on just adding it to the base mix. Now will run those in the windrows of worms.

 

[heady blunts]

The best part is these containers can provide me with a brand new humus portion to future mixes (equal parts peat:humus:aeration) so theoretically the mix will triple in size if space allows for it every 3-4 cycles. The worms are the backbone behind no tilling indoors IME.

TM, i've seen you mention this practice several times now and i understand the logic of multiplying volume, but unless you need to expand the garden on the cheap, why destroy the established fungal colonies and soil aggregates by remixing?

i've heard other gardeners attempting to conceptualize soil texture of a many-cycle-old no till container, and this "entirely EWC" idea comes up a lot. for many folks this brings to mind a muddy, anaerobic mess, and that encourages the compulsion to dump and reammend with more aeration and peat/coco.

however IME that conceptualization is misleading. there is far more at play in these containers than in a worm bin. fungal hyphae, bacterial slime, ionic forces, fibrous roots, decaying mulch, decomposing insect bodies, etc etc etc are all constantly building soil aggregates and maintaining (slash improving) texture and structure.

my belief is by supporting these mechanisms and avoiding system collapse is key to success in a no till container.

dumping/recycling puts you back at square one where those benefits are concerned IMO.

 

[Team Microbe]

TM, i've seen you mention this practice several times now and i understand the logic of multiplying volume, but unless you need to expand the garden on the cheap, why destroy the established fungal colonies and soil aggregates by remixing?

i've heard other gardeners attempting to conceptualize soil texture of a many-cycle-old no till container, and this "entirely EWC" idea comes up a lot. for many folks this brings to mind a muddy, anaerobic mess, and that encourages the compulsion to dump and reammend with more aeration and peat/coco.

however IME that conceptualization is misleading. there is far more at play in these containers than in a worm bin. fungal hyphae, bacterial slime, ionic forces, fibrous roots, decaying mulch, decomposing insect bodies, etc etc etc are all constantly building soil aggregates and maintaining (slash improving) texture and structure.

my belief is by supporting these mechanisms and avoiding system collapse is key to success in a no till container.

dumping/recycling puts you back at square one where those benefits are concerned IMO.

Those are some valid points Heady, and although I haven't done it myself yet (I have no need to expand right now) I've seen BlueJay do it successfully and it didn't really seem like there was too much "hold up" time after the re-mix, but we both know that his soil food web suffered from the entire process. I would calculate it as something than can be done if one wanted to be incredibly sustainable, and needed to expand their soil volume

 

[Team Microbe]

The work horses hard at work

Underneath the straw layer, looks like they need some more organic matter to munch on...

On-site vermicomposting is the most efficient way of incorporating EWC into a no till system IMO

 

[dank.frank]

I could obviously be wrong but still contend that the main impetus for these mixes was to support one growing cycle, to be at least partially remixed or recycled thereafter.

This is EXACTLY how they were intended to be used. I know this first hand because that is how the NSPB mix was to be used. (those other mixes were merely piggybacking the idea)

Large permanent soil beds were not feasible for many who need the ability to tear down quickly. Containers, especially grow bags, can fold up and pack away quickly.

The "no-till" aspect of that was something I think was understood, but was always viewed as a "next step" or "level" if you will. Beds and no-till were for the guys who had grow security.

Can these mixes be used as the base to start a no-till bed, but I think anyone who says this was their original intended purpose is retroactively applying the practice in an attempt to remain relevant in a constantly changing whimsical market.

In other words, I think you're 100% correct, MM.



dank.Frank

 

[Avinash.miles]

depending how MUCH soil you have, trust me it's a hold up to re mix. i've been recycling my soil for 3+ years now, reamending & all that. last few runs i used 45 gallon smart pots with handles, not quite a "large soil bed" but big enough to veg & bloom without adding back too much during the grow cycle. also 45 gallon bags fit thru doorways and can easily be moved with 2 peeps when soil is wet....

depending wht you use in the soil for aeration/drainage... worms may or may not process your soil entirely. chunky lava rock aint going nowhere no matter how many worms you hve, same with perlite.... sand also for drainage wont turn into sludge...
so if you want worms and want to notill forever and don't ever want to dump and remix consider differnt forms of areation/drainage material in your soil instead of ones that will break down over time like rice hulls. ifyou have to move soil to dump and remix maybe consider perlite or pumice because it's lightweight and makes the finished soil mix more lightweight than if using lava rock & sand

TM - looks like nightcrawlers you got there, or what?
i've got red wigglers and night crawlers in my kiddie pools now.... always feel like i could have MORE in there.

 

[Team Microbe]

depending how MUCH soil you have, trust me it's a hold up to re mix. i've been recycling my soil for 3+ years now, reamending & all that. last few runs i used 45 gallon smart pots with handles, not quite a "large soil bed" but big enough to veg & bloom without adding back too much during the grow cycle. also 45 gallon bags fit thru doorways and can easily be moved with 2 peeps when soil is wet....

depending wht you use in the soil for aeration/drainage... worms may or may not process your soil entirely. chunky lava rock aint going nowhere no matter how many worms you hve, same with perlite.... sand also for drainage wont turn into sludge...
so if you want worms and want to notill forever and don't ever want to dump and remix consider differnt forms of areation/drainage material in your soil instead of ones that will break down over time like rice hulls. ifyou have to move soil to dump and remix maybe consider perlite or pumice because it's lightweight and makes the finished soil mix more lightweight than if using lava rock & sand

TM - looks like nightcrawlers you got there, or what?
i've got red wigglers and night crawlers in my kiddie pools now.... always feel like i could have MORE in there.

Great point dude, I completely failed upon starting my first no till cycle solely due to using rice hulls for my only aeration amendment. That sucked big time.

I then added lava rock (as mentioned above) and that fixed my problem completely. I added some bio char at about 10% of the soil body volume as well, along with a few lbs of red wigglers and those euro's you just eyed out

 

[Weird]

Well guess it makes me an asshole for not jumping on the bandwagon and using a foreign mix based on false bravado. You know how many people fucked their mix with rice hulls?

Still using the same no till since I bought these containers (3 years about iirc), before that I recycled soil since 09 but did not grow no til or completely organic.

I started with LCs mix and changed one component per grow until I felt I was dialed just like when I transitioned from sterile I did in such a way I would know what each variable added to the equation.

How can you understand how any of these things work from a experiential standpoint if you don't have a basis for causation?

You don't.

That is why product based solutions don't help here but sharing successful technique sets a baseline for others to follow and experiment with in their own local environments.

 

[heady blunts]

okay this is pure semantics, and surely marketing companies will disregard the distinction, BUT:

IMO none of these mixes (nor any bagged product) are "no till" recipes. it's the same as the coopted term "living soil."

these terms are intended to describe FARMING PRACTICES not potting mix recipes. a mix can be well suited for no till or intended to be treated as living soil.

by definition, you can't create a no till soil in one day.

IMO it's a classification to be applied in retrospect, or a practice to intend on.