Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[self]

volcanic rock dust is a great alternative to glacial. you can even use basalt for both the basalt portion & the glacial. granite would be OK too. any CaCO3 source is a suitable alternative to oyster. mainly folks wanted to get away from the excessive magnesium associated w/ dolomite. Solomon's 3 part lime mix was a good 1st step {2 parts oyster 1 pt ea of gypsum & dolo} it still left a few people w/ too much mag.

many do OK using dolomite lime. seems like the humus portion is most important. you don;t want it to contribute too much K & you do want it to be alive {the critical part}



seems like i read something about cedar being problematic? idk but, if it seems particularly fresh anyway, you'll want to let it compost for a while ~so that time may just fix the cedar "problem" {if there actually is one}

Thanks xmobotx, That makes more sense, I was wondering if the current recipes were based on some path dependency. I've been working with a combination of calcium and dolomite lime + gypsum to try to keep CA/MG ratios around 4-1. I started with aragonite (oyster flour) but it was way to expensive at the volume I needed, and with a little research it seemed like there was actually very little difference between aragonite and calcite.
As I understand it, (and correct me if Im wrong) the mineral flours are added as a building block for the creation of more soil. Ive assumed that the excess was to provide some mineral benefits directly to the plant while the soil incorporates the rest.

So between granite, basalt, and glacial rock dust, is it beneficial to use the full variety, or are the differences minor?
I used basalt and granite this run at 1 cup per cf, but i gave up on the aragonite and switched to a calcite/dolomite mix after 5 200 gallon pots.

final Q: what about azomite, sea 90, etc for minerals and micro nutrients? necessary? redundant?

Thanks for being so helpful, happy growing.

 

[one.sixoneeight]

aragonite brings ocean microbiology to the table, something not seen in calcite

 

[xmobotx]

w/ the stone meal thing, i believe there is a tilth benefit where it helps give a better texture to your soil & i'm certain there are available trace minerals brought to the table. but, my thinking is that there is a microbial benefit as well. it's clear that a small amount makes little difference & you can use quite a bit so the range of use is pretty high. the selection of rock manure is not so critical. mostly you want something volcanic w/o too much quartz. The use of pumice or lava rock {scoria} for drainage applies here as well {& i think that also leans toward habitat for micros}

azomite is basically clay ~which has it's own benefits {such as leaning towards terra preta} & a calcium bentonite or the like will help in that same capacity. there may be a greater range of minerals in your azomite but there is some debate about the availability of those minerals. i have used azomite & it does seem to be effective.

i have not experimented w/ sea90 but my reading does have me wanting to include magnesium chloride as a trace application {perhaps as a foliar?} for an experiment

the thing is, as far as no-till & recycling goes, it helps to start w/ a recipe that doesn't have a ticking time bomb of un-available excess being released until balance is toxic. as mentioned, many do have success using the standard recipes & this emphasizes the importance of the "living" aspect here

 

[self]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to xmobotx again.

Thank you! that really cleared things up for me.

 

[Skinny Leaf]

I've got a quick question on horse manure compost that has cedar chips in it. I just grabbed 2 yards of it today. Supposedly 5 yrs old, still steaming? I was going to mix it with some old hay from the barn and let it set for a while. I'd keep adding stuff to it and turn it now and then. Maybe use it next Spring. Stuff looks like it's only 5 months old not 5 yrs as stated in the ad. Should have walked away.

On the other hand I could just cut my losses and use it in pathways where the muck builds up in the rainy season.

I'd compost it until next spring and add some worms to the pile also.

 

[self]

just found this poking around the web, from ://themodern.farm/rock-dust-remineralization/

Rock Dust & Remineralization
If you’re coming into organic growing and perhaps done a bit of light reading, you’ve likely noticed the term remineralization in many of your sources. If you haven’t, remineralization is the utilization of rock dust in your soil to provide a slow release of minerals and trace elements. Using rock dust in your garden mimics the earths natural cycle of fertility, as soil and rock wear down and are leached into the water it accumulates in glaciers; during ice age these minerals are returned to earth. Over time volcanic activity pulls minerals and metals from their slumber deep in the earth, and volcanic ash helps spread them to the wind. But not all rock dust are equal, or optimal for any grow condition. Let’s take a look at their differences, and find which will work best for your garden. The major types of rock dust, or remineralization products, marketed to growers today are: Azomite, Glacial Rock Dust, Basalt, Gypsum, and Sea-90. That’s quite a selection, and some have uses that others do not, so rightfully some people may be confused about which to use, or which ones are okay to be used together.

Azomite®: The name itself stands for “A to Z of Minerals Including Trace Elements”. Azomite® is a combination of volcanic dust that filled a nearby seabed, creating hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicate with the presence of other trace minerals. Azomite® contains a rather high amount of metal ions. In particular aluminum, some of which has already bound with silica to form aluminosilicate which will not be broken down by bacteria found in most soil; further any extra aluminum binds with silica you water-in, forming more non-soluble aluminosilicate. Containing the highest amount of lead and arsenic of any of the rock dust, which is a serious consideration for the average gardener not only in handling and safety, but when growing crops that could accumulate those compounds. It does however, contain the greatest amounts of rare elements and minerals, which is particularly useful when growing food crops. All in all, Azomite® is a suitable tool for mineralization if it’s what’s on hand locally, or if growing food, but perhaps not if growing cannabis.

Glacial Rock Dust: GRD (Glacial Rock Dust) as the name implies, is rock dust that is the result of weathering of rocks that has accrued in glacial formation; then as the glaciers recede they leave behind a glacial moraine. These glacial moraines are then mined, and the product is sold as GRD. GRD does not have quite as many rare elements as Azomite®, but it contains much lower aluminum, lead, and arsenic levels. It’s worth considering that Cannabis accumulates metals found in the soil, so if growing for smoke, GRD will contribute less impurities to the end product. The magnesium levels found in GRD is perfect for recycling soil, and contributing a slow but balanced level of magnesium.

Basalt: Basalt Rock Dust is made from igneous rock which means it hasn’t been processed or had any of nutrients leached, as consequence it has most of the rare elements found in Azomite®, while having incredibly low levels of the elements that are more toxic (lead, arsenic, etc.). Basalt has quite a high amount of silica, and weathers much quicker than any other rock dust, so it becomes available quicker. It’s also a good slow source of Phosphorus & Potassium, and will balance the pH of the soil. It provide some of the lowest sodium levels of any rock dust, and is found in great amounts, so generally speaking one of the cheapest of the rock dust. Glacial Rock Dust and Basalt together provide all the elements needed for mineralization of a medical garden, in my anecdotal experience.

Gypsum: Gypsum is Calcium Sulfate, so unlike the rest of the rock dust, it is not a composite of many different minerals and trace elements. However, it’s such a powerhouse it’s the one rock dust you absolutely shouldn’t omit. It helps with aeration in compacted soil, desalting the soil, provides an excellent source of calcium as well as sulfur, while balancing the soil pH. more. When trying to keep proper magnesium levels in your soil for recycling I’d recommend using gypsum for liming agent rather than dolomite, as not only will gypsum not add unneeded magnesium to the soil, it will provide more immediately available calcium than most other organic sources, such as oyster shell flour. Combining oyster shell flour and gypsum in your compost, top dressing, and soil will provide more than enough calcium to never use a product like cal-mag again. Topdressing gypsum as you begin bringing out the fade in your plant will provide a source of sulfur, increasing the terpene content before harvest.

Sea-90: Sea-90 is produced by solar dehydrating seawater trapped in retention ponds located in a secluded coastal area; in other words unrefined sea salt. Sea-90 is not a rock dust but since it’s used for remineralization I wanted to include it. Now, since Sea-90 is produced from seawater it contains a staggering amount of sodium and chloride, roughly 77% of each sea-90 crystal in fact. This massive amount of sodium and chlorine will definitely have an effect on microbiotic life, some of which can not handle the osmotic stress and toxicity. Sea-90 is water soluble though, and with the remaining 23% of each sea-90 crystal being minerals, metals, and elements it has the advantage of not having to wait for a rock dust to weather, but with the relatively toxic nature of chlorine and sodium, water solubility may not warrant it’s usage.

Now that you’re familiar with the differences between each product, you can start making your mineral mix confidently. For those of you curious about what I use personally, my mineral mix is:
2 part Oyster Shell Flour
2 part Gypsum
1 part Glacial Rock Dust
1 part Basalt
1 part Calcium Bentonite – I didn’t include more information about this, as it’s a clay and not used strictly for remineralization but instead for increasing the cation-ion exchange capacity of the soil.
This mineral mix is used at a rate of 3 cups per cuFt of soil

 

[Team Microbe]

I wouldn't drop the lime if your base is primarily peat. There's a crowd advocating no lime elsewhere, to mixed result (from what I've seen). I could understand with a bit of trial and error, but it seems unnecessary.

Limestone (calcitic, agricultural) is pretty easy to come by world wide. No?

Would you say that the level of magnesium in ag lime is too high? (2:1)

I use oyster shell flour in my mix as an alternative because to my understanding it's more of a sound calcium to magnesium ratio of 10:1. I read that the ideal ratio is about 8:1 - correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[Lapides]

I use speedy's ag lime and have been for years. I know your question wasn't direct toward me, but I wanted to chime in on the lime and throw down a lil rhyme.

 

[lotus710]

I should read through thisXD

 

[Sluicebox]

I will pile that Cedar/horse manure off to the side. Mix some Alder chips and moldy hay bedding. Throw some dolomite on it and maybe some fresh manure no Cedar chips and let her cook. I drove a ways to pick it up and I was late. Dude was a real 2nd Amendment supporter, (thumbs up.) So I wasn't going to turn the load down. When he scooped the loader bucket into the pile it was still steaming after supposedly 5 yrs. Nothing was growing on the pile. Some Red Worms but not many and only on the very outside of pile, should have at the base on the outskirts.

Oh well, I have a homemade pile no Cedar giving up 5 gal buckets of castings for about 15 min work. It's loaded with worms/eggs too. About 4 yds worth. Screening to 1/4" nets me a pound of worms while filling a 5 gal bucket. Those get put into 5 gal worm bins with Peat and home made worm chow. Trying to get a clean population going to expand some indoor beds. The castings/worms/eggs mix get top dressed on 30 gal home made smart pots.

 

[Team Microbe]

I use speedy's ag lime and have been for years. I know your question wasn't direct toward me, but I wanted to chime in on the lime and throw down a lil rhyme.

 

[Mikell]

Would you say that the level of magnesium in ag lime is too high? (2:1)

I use oyster shell flour in my mix as an alternative because to my understanding it's more of a sound calcium to magnesium ratio of 10:1. I read that the ideal ratio is about 8:1 - correct me if I'm wrong!

Agricultural lime and dolomite are different types of lime.

Oyster shell and agricultural lime are chemically similar. Depending on where either one is mined alters the macro and micronutrient content. Oyster shell leads in micronutrient diversity, but we are talking 2-3%, any addition of kelp meal or the like would eclipse this contribution by many magnitudes. Slim justification for the severe increase in cost.


Both work equally as well but most don't live near a source of production for oyster shell. I can get something like 5-6 bags of aglime for the price of one oyster.

I bought oyster shell when I did what everyone else did. Boy am I glad those days are long gone.

 

[Team Microbe]

Agricultural lime and dolomite are different types of lime.

Oyster shell and agricultural lime are chemically similar. Depending on where either one is mined alters the macro and micronutrient content. Oyster shell leads in micronutrient diversity, but we are talking 2-3%, any addition of kelp meal or the like would eclipse this contribution by many magnitudes. Slim justification for the severe increase in cost.


Both work equally as well but most don't live near a source of production for oyster shell. I can get something like 5-6 bags of aglime for the price of one oyster.

I bought oyster shell when I did what everyone else did. Boy am I glad those days are long gone.

Ahhhh I see now. See I thought lime was lime and that was that, good to know there's a more affordable option out there for future mixes. Thanks Mikell

 

[Mikell]

Use what you have. I believe Weird lives closer to production and pays much less than I do up here.

 

[Slipnot]

They are both sources of calcium and magnesium. The typical analysis of ag lime is 32% Ca and maybe 1% Mg while dolomite lime is roughly 22% Ca and 11% Mg.

Either can be used to adjust your pH, if that's your goal. However, you'll need to take into account the lack of magnesium if you use ag lime. I generally use ag lime and add magnesium sulfate (epsom salts) as my Mg source. If you're using a fertilizer that contains Mg you can skip the Epsom salts altogether.

Both are relatively fast-acting. However, using pulverized (as opposed to pelletized) lime will be the quicker option. I used to think there was little difference between the two, but I recently read that pulverized lime will raise your substrate pH 1-2 units within a week or so. It will take pelletized lime more than a month to achieve the same increase.

 

[Sluicebox]

How do you quickly lower pH in living soil? Made a solution of 1/2 c soil 3" deep in pot plus 1/2 cup 7.0 H2O. Shook and allowed to settle. Added to vial plus drops color is blue. I have sulfur, compost even lab strength Nitric for mining. Could up pot into 30 gallon with lots of compost added including EWC. Would any of those help? It's only the ones I top dressed with 1/3 cup dolomite a week ago.

 

[Mikell]

Top dressing lime is a slow trickle down application. Of course the top layer will test higher. Changing medium pH of established plants is difficult at best, it takes weeks to guage results.

Did you use distilled water and filter the solution through a coffee filtre? I would visually observe results and take samples from the upper and lower portions of the rootball in another week or two. Tested separately. On that note, how did you determine there was an issue? A previous pH test as you have described, or plant symptoms?

Transplanting away your problems never works, especially with an under developed root system (generally, I obviously don't know your specifics).

 

[Sluicebox]

+Mikell, That's great news and makes sense as was only tested at 3" depth. Same mix indoor was low pH so I figured the symptoms outdoor were the same. Red stems yellowing, and brown dead spots like P def. As it turned out there must have been a cal/mag lock out too. I hit the indoors foliar with cal/mag and they showed better for a few days. Outdoors I thought that maybe my ACT had gone bad and fried the pH. I have used it 3 and 4 days brew a few times. It didn't smell awesome but not bad either.

You prompted me in another thread to find a better way to test pH. I will take from multiple depths next time, distilled and filter.

The ones with the problem are root bound I'm sure of it 15 gal. The others that got tp'd into 30's look ten times better now 2 weeks after tp.

I'll get them tp'd today, and mix in 20% EWC. I'm going to test on a small group this new food I got, Food of the Gods from Oregon's only I think? They showed improvement with the Ca addition. Their line is all based on Ca Phosphates not sulfates.

Pretty sure this came from my amendments to the mix. Small handful of cal/phos and KMS 0021, Oyster shell, gypsum, blood, bone Something locked up. The tp'd ones got 15 gal of just straight base mix + EWC, and look great. So when I tp these I will do the same, straight base/EWC, BioAg Vam.

Thanks if you made it this far.

 

[Mikell]

20% EWC is a very high rate and can be detrimental. Above ten percent and start to transition from diminishing returns to stunted growth, not to mention raising the bulk density significantly while reducing total porosity.

Trouble, in other words. Generally.

Rootbound, yes transplanting away. Bearing in mind cold rootzones produce similar symptoms to what you are describing.

Apologies, I am very redundant sometimes (I do recall that now).

If I come off more abrasive than usual, just ignore it. Post ripper clean up and longer hours is giving me asshole super powers.

And with great asshole super power comes great asshole tomfuckery crotchety ass fuck attitude.

 

[Robrites]

With great asshole super power comes great asshole tomfuckery crotchety ass fuck attitude.

Be a killer signature....