Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[Microbeman]

If you can "charge" biochar, then why not do something similar with the ramial chipped wood? I know they are functionally somewhat different, but it seems reasonable that the RCW could be soaked or otherwise treated to prevent the N leaching so commonly associated with burying them. I'm just high and throwing out ideas.

The discussion has been interesting so far.
It seems that bio-char works best in soils that are already low in nutrient holding capacity or have been leached via water or other degradation routes.

The difference is the 'active' stage of lignin and cellulose and the degradation process. When you char (partially combust) wood you alter the molecular structure (? as I understand [AIU]) of the lignin and cellulose to a stable form.

AIU the charging process is basically a precaution against the dreaded N lock out. The charging, obviously is not longterm, as the nutrients soaked up don't last perpetually as the char is intended to be used. The reason I first began soaking our char for a short duration in ACT was in following with my own hypothesis.

This was thought about after studying information on the Terra Preta areas in South America. (see below)

I figured that the char works in concert with microbial consortia.

Anyway if one wanted to use Ramial wood clippings in a similar fashion, they must first, similarly be stabilized. One could possibly accomplish this by aging/composting the clippings. This is actually practiced to create wood/bark fines to mix into growing media.

Once stabilized through aging/composting one could charge the clippings using your preferred substance and method.

OR

One could char the Ramial clippings

AIU one can topdress with Ramial clippings where surface oxygen and nitrogen are available to the microorganisms to transform RWC into humus and soil >> to be once again topdressed as time ensues, etc.

And one can work biochar (charged char) into the soil as a nutrient clingon.

read at your own risk;

It seems the current theory supports that this type of soil sustains carbons and nutrients over extended periods of time partially due to incompletely combusted organic materials (charcoal) and the interaction thereof with the soil microorganisms. The natives who
still have some bond to the history of this, maintain that if a minimum of 20 CM of the soil remains undisturbed by horticultural activities that the organismic activity re-sustains (re-invents) itself. This is not unlike a Winogradsky column which may provide a rudimentary laboratory example of what may be occurring here.


When one observes a map of the Terra Petra plots in the Amazon it is evident that there is a large concentration of them in close proximity to the larger trunks of the Amazon River and to the sea coast portion of the Amazon.

I also read that the indigenous people (IP) had built canals lined with special shaped (diamond) stones which allowed the flow of river silt. Now, knowing (or think I know {TIK}) that there are certain organisms (purple non sulfur bacteria,(PNSB) cyanobacteria, bacillus {N fixers}, yeast/fungi, protozoa, etc. etc.) in pond/river mud and in sea water and knowing (TIK) that sea water also contains a similar consortia of microbes (which may interact beneficially with the mud and forest microbes to create a broader spectrum consortia) and that there are large influxes of salt water up the Amazon; I may hypothesize that the IP flooded large paddies (beds, plots) with this silt/mud salt-fresh water mix. In these paddies were large amounts of incompletely combusted organic material (charcoal) remaining from the IP's method of clearing land. The result perhaps was the utilization of the charcoal by the microbe consortia to sustain itself and produce waste which resulted in the production and fixation of bio-available soil/plant nutrients. The organisms would naturally sustain themselves at the depths conducive to their aerobic/anaerobic and dietary lot in life, with fermentation occurring at the lower levels providing nutrients for the organisms above them. The phototrophic microbes (PNSBs; Rhodopseudomonas palustris, Rhodobacter sphaeriodes, Rhodobacter capsulatus; would naturally be somewhat closer to the surface to absorb light but not too close to hit air and the upper levels would consist of aerobic and facultative organisms (cyanobacteria, etc. if I'm not mistaken). This would support the statement that the system re-establishes itself if no more than 20 cm is disturbed. This is not unlike the theory behind EM use horticulturally and what we see in a healthy old growth forest and natural plains grass expanse.

Of course at some point the paddy/plot would be drained in preparation for planting but the microbial consortia presumably sustains itself with less moisture.

 

[Microbeman]

hmm i generally don't find slideshows very convincing.

you have spurred me to do some more research tho.

certain species of mycorrhizae do produce extracellular enzymes that decompose organic compounds. however it is misleading to describe them as decomposers IMO. in most environments mycorrhizae will work symbiotically with other organisms whose main task is the breakdown of OM.

so when you see mycellium running through a rotting log or a bunch of RCW, it's likely not the mycorrhizae you're witnessing (although it may be present). rotting wood also acts as a sponge, and that would be attractive to the mycorrhizae as a reliable source of moisture. i even saw a hypothesis that suggested they may colonize dead wood simply to support their fruiting bodies.

here's some interesting reading:

ecosystem processes related to wood decay

Spatial separation of litter decomposition and mycorrhizal nitrogen uptake in a boreal forest

Mycorrhizal ecology and evolution: the past, the present, and the future

decomposers in disguise: mycorrhizal fungi as regulators of soil C dynamics in ecosystems under global change

Heady; You've rejuvenated some thoughts from my back burner with the boreal forest paper. Thank you for posting this citation. More in a while.

 

[Scrappy4]

I built a few beds using the hugelkultur method, going on the third year and performing well.

I have a number of places on my property where I left wood to decompose (tree remains etc) and plants that grow in those areas naturally seem to be more prone to blight, fungus, etc.

TWM suggests that in the natural scale of things you want bacterial dominant soil for plants fungal dominance for trees.

I will use leaf mold in my beds and containers but not wood chips or mulch, however I do use them outside in my ivy and herb gardens as ground cover where I walk.

The top soil is always healthier (biodiversity) in areas where I have cover crops opposed to where I have wood mulch.

I've been doing something simular. I built two hugel beds 5x 60. One last year and another this spring. I buried old rotting logs and used 100lb of soy bean meal and two year old horse manure, for the "charge"

My beds have been alright, but not where I'd like them to be, but it's mostly sand around here, and thats what i used, so I'm still adding compost on the beds top. Plus it might be it's taking a while I suppose for roots to find all the goodies down there.

Along this line I had a large contractor size bag of cherry wood chips, that I have not used for smoking in a long while, so I thought I'd use them for mulch on my indoor pots after "charging" I charged in a plastic barrel with soy bean meal and water, then covered and left in a dark corner. After a couple weeks I checked on them, along with the expected smell the surface was covered in maggots, lol. Off they went to get buried in our compost heap. It's been a month now, I should check on them, maybe turn the heap for a look see.

 

[heady blunts]

gross lol!

remember the black soldier fly compost thread? eek!

 

[EastBayGrower]

Hey guys,

I know most of the founders of this thread are long gone (sad to say) but i have a question regarding recycling my living soil, i use an all organic supersoil style mix, and am wondering about those problem plants that either get PM or have bug problems, so far ive been throwing away the soil and plant as a precaution when i find it to be infected with PM or bugs (after possibly treating it, just depends)..

but am i being to careful? could i keep this soil and just keep it in a trash bag for some length of time so the bug/mold dies off and is no longer an issue? how long would you recommend?

Or is it just better to be prudent and throw out the soil with the problem plant?

 

[Dog Star]

Hey guys,

I know most of the founders of this thread are long gone (sad to say) but i have a question regarding recycling my living soil, i use an all organic supersoil style mix, and am wondering about those problem plants that either get PM or have bug problems, so far ive been throwing away the soil and plant as a precaution when i find it to be infected with PM or bugs (after possibly treating it, just depends)..

but am i being to careful? could i keep this soil and just keep it in a trash bag for some length of time so the bug/mold dies off and is no longer an issue? how long would you recommend?

Or is it just better to be prudent and throw out the soil with the problem plant?

If you use synthetic protectives on organic soil mixes than is good
to not use this soil mix any more cause this protectives are mostly toxic compounds.

Depend on type of pest but you can compost those soil and with raising a temperature in compost you will kill eggs and some pathogens,

so later you will have chance to use this mix incorporated in your
compost pile if this was a question.

Decomposition atleast for 50 days or better more...

 

[EastBayGrower]

If you use synthetic protectives on organic soil mixes than is good
to not use this soil mix any more cause this protectives are mostly toxic compounds.

Depend on type of pest but you can compost those soil and with raising a temperature in compost you will kill eggs and some pathogens,

so later you will have chance to use this mix incorporated in your
compost pile if this was a question.

Decomposition atleast for 50 days or better more...

I dont have a compost pile per say, but i do let my soil batches cook and some (fresh ones) usually get pretty darn hot! (especially with Alfalfa in it)

I could see this killing the bugs and most pathogens like you mentioned, im basically talking about thrips,spider/soil mites, root aphids, ect.. and as far as molds, root rot, and PM ...

anybody have good/bad experiences recycling soil from problem plants before?

 

[Scrappy4]

Hey guys,

I know most of the founders of this thread are long gone (sad to say) but i have a question regarding recycling my living soil, i use an all organic supersoil style mix, and am wondering about those problem plants that either get PM or have bug problems, so far ive been throwing away the soil and plant as a precaution when i find it to be infected with PM or bugs (after possibly treating it, just depends)..

but am i being to careful? could i keep this soil and just keep it in a trash bag for some length of time so the bug/mold dies off and is no longer an issue? how long would you recommend?

Or is it just better to be prudent and throw out the soil with the problem plant?

In some years of growing this way I never had to toss my soil after continuos growing. I have freshened up pots by removing the top layer and replacing it with compost.

If I had a mystery illness that killed plants I would, but baring that any decisions would be based on preformance.

If I noticed diminishing yields, or sickly plants, then yes, I might change out soil. Or if there is build up on the soil surface from top dressing or tea residuals, I might replace that with fresh compost, without a total replacement.

If you read these pages, I'm sure you seen mentions of an IPM or integrated pest management. For me this means that I spray neem oil weekly in veg up to flowering, wether I notice bugs or not.

In the soil itself I like dual purpose amendments. Crab meal, kelp meal, and neem meal all have things that add to my IPM, along with provided food for soil. So with amendments that help fight bugs and and an IPM I'm not worried about bugs affecting my pot's soil in any negative way.

In a continuos grow we cultivate microbes, this takes time. But when things kick into gear, after a cycle or three, the pots do the heavy lifting, when you take care of them. And it's worth pointing out, healthy plants can and do handle plant pests, and stresses that would harm less healthy plants.

I have found myself using more N in teas to fuel microbes, at least more than I did before Los no till growing. I believe this is due to the microbes having to continuously having to eat old roots. So with this in mind I read the plants for clues, and act accordingly.

 

[EastBayGrower]

If I noticed diminishing yields, or sickly plants, then yes, I might change out soil. Or if there is build up on the soil surface from top dressing or tea residuals, I might replace that with fresh compost, without a total replacement.

If you read these pages, I'm sure you seen mentions of an IPM or integrated pest management. For me this means that I spray neem oil weekly in veg up to flowering, wether I notice bugs or not.

In the soil itself I like dual purpose amendments. Crab meal, kelp meal, and neem meal all have things that add to my IPM, along with provided food for soil. So with amendments that help fight bugs and and an IPM I'm not worried about bugs affecting my pot's soil in any negative way.

Thanks bud, yeah im still in the process of reading all the old ROLS thread, but didnt see much for recycling soil that was effected by pests/mold so i'd figure id ask...

Yeah i do weekly IPM topdresses, with neem/kelp/chitin rich EWC and somtimes frasss (chitin) and crab meal (more chitin) and do bi-weekly IPM sprays of neem oil, silica, fulvic, and spinosad.... all organic love this shit... once the soil is kicking it really does take alot of the problems associated with growing away (ph issues, when/what to feed, ect..)

thanks for the reply

 

[Microbeman]

By using spinosad regularly you will be killing your beneficials as well and possibly (hypothethically) your soil microorganisms. If used outdoors it is toxic to bees.

Spinosad is a good remedy when called for.

IPM - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=292838&highlight=Integrated+Pest+Management

I'm posting this quickly and do not have a lot of time to get into the subject. Recently I'm seeing the term IPM badly misused and I'd just like to briefly point everyone in the right direction to learn what it really is. I posted the following in another thread a while back.


Quote:
Actually, Contrary to recent information which has hit the networks IPM is integrated pest (and pathogen) management and the use of botanical teas is one minor part of it.

An IPM program includes, cultivation techniques (companion planting, soil type/depth/moisture, topdress, irrigation regimen), the use of predators, the use of microbial inoculants for pathogen and pest control, the use of insecticide/pesticide sprays of varying intensities for pest and pathogen control, including homemade botanical teas/sprays.

Normally insecticides and other sprays are used as a last resort.

Here is a link which describes IPM properly and if you follow it back there are details regarding its use.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/GENERAL/whatisipm.html

For solving a pathogen problem, a lot depends on your volume of soil and the grower's commitment to keep it living. If one has a good volume and you are using a notill method, it is likely a good idea to treat the problem and carry on. If you are re-amending by remixing every planting, then beating the problem may be more difficult. The advice already given, to compost the soil is the best idea.

With fungal (and bacterial) pathogens I inoculate the soil with Trichoderma and actinobacteria species. This could be employed with re-amending as well.

 

[milkyjoe]

How often with trichoderma? And is that specific to peat based mixes or also to field soil?

Is trichoderma the blue/green algae?

 

[Microbeman]

How often with trichoderma? And is that specific to peat based mixes or also to field soil?

Is trichoderma the blue/green algae?

Trichoderma is a fungal species which consumes other species of fungi but also has been shown to assist roots with nutrient uptake. The spores are often used in mycorrhizal mixes (a little silly IMO)

I recommend http://www.ampacbiotech.net/Articles & Pubs/trich.html

It is useful in all container mixes and in gardens/farming

 

[Scrappy4]

Trichoderma is a fungal species which consumes other species of fungi but also has been shown to assist roots with nutrient uptake. The spores are often used in mycorrhizal mixes (a little silly IMO)

I recommend http://www.ampacbiotech.net/Articles & Pubs/trich.html

It is useful in all container mixes and in gardens/farming

Have you ever done a side by side test? (mico's in general) I did some tears ago, and have never bought any mico products since, with no apparent lack of vitality in my plants.

My take is either what I used did not work, or there already are spores in my soil negating any additions. Either way I have not bought any in year, and see no need to.

The trichoderma in my pots just shows up without me adding it. Maybe they ate my store bought fungi.

 

[milkyjoe]

How do you determine it is actually trichoderma scrappy? What are the tell tale signs?

 

[Scrappy4]

How do you determine it is actually trichoderma scrappy? What are the tell tale signs?

I think it's the most common soil fungus, you see it often when damp soil has been in the dark for a while. It's a white ish gray. Its been called santa's beard before. There should be pictures if you google it. I think most people will recall seeing it after you view a pic.

 

[milkyjoe]

Thanks scrappy. I will def have a look

 

[milkyjoe]

Ok...so I am really high righ now...ignore if you want. Lets say an extreme case of shit soil....rocky as hell and salty as hell...something like western CO for example. As a pioneering plant...and yes it is technically illegal In w co...is there any plant better than goats head to start to regenerate this soil?

Technically once it starts to open up and breath other plants will kill it off...right

I mean it would kinda suck to have 300 legal mj plants and get popped for goats head...but it would work...right?

 

[Microbeman]

I think it's the most common soil fungus, you see it often when damp soil has been in the dark for a while. It's a white ish gray. Its been called santa's beard before. There should be pictures if you google it. I think most people will recall seeing it after you view a pic.

Scrappy; Trichoderma is ubiquitous and does grow in many locations, as you mentioned, sometimes unwanted in the case of mushroom cultivation. It can be white but usually ranges from green to yellow to red dependent on stage and species. It is not to be confused with the Santa's beard described by Lowenfels but it is possible that a culture could take on that appearance.

When I cultured it from spores, I observed green and red hyphae.

In reference to your other question;
I have used inoculations of endomycorrhizal spores where I did see a difference in growth compared to non-inoculated plants; Cedar trees and Empress trees. My neighbor observed larger faster growing tomato plants this year in side by sides using Glomus Intraradices spores I gave him.

The big factor is viability of product and the spore count. If the product is flooded with Trichoderma spores, it will likely win out (and as mentioned that could be good anyway).

http://nt.ars-grin.gov/taxadescriptions/keys/frameGenusOverview.cfm?gen=Trichoderma
http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2104733_67fig122_133&req=4
http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ijar.2006.432.441&org=10

 

[milkyjoe]

So any chance to I'd this? My od soil was full of it after I chopped the winter cover crop. Sorry about pic quality

 

[heady blunts]

hard to tell with the action blur...