MJtheIndicator
Member
wood chips are fun with ectomycorrhiza, but I've been leaning towards live bark. Clover is a fabulous cover and cute, but I'm searching out something relative with a bigger leaf. It's nice to see more folks discussing loam.
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Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...
- Thread starter gaiusmarius
- Start date
il19z8rn4li1
Member
my wood chips are exactly 100% RWC... but id say its around 20% for sure.. NOT A LOT I know..
but its better then PURE WOOD MULCH imo...
I have a forested area near my garden that I responsibly scrap off some of the top soil along
with the leaves and sticks that are over top the soil. I have always seen a nice boost in growth and
over all healthy when Id add this forest top soil around my plants as a "mulch" it quickly breaks down though...
literally over ONE SEASON... its all gone...
Wood chips under the plants... cover crops in my walk ways
this year the garden has been the best it has been since the
first year I put the garden in.
Years... 2-4 I saw drastic decrease in vigor and yields.
That was when I started doing MUCH MUCH MUCH more reading
and started learning a lot more and started really trying to mimic nature.
Thanks for the links MM, your links are hidden treasures for sure.
I have saved almost every single PDF and link you have posted
in this long ass thread lol
il19z8rn4li1
Member
id use both in conjunction personally...
I have not yet added A LOT of char to my soils... but I did just
happen to pick up a new 55gallon steel drum along with a smaller
35gallon steel drum... going to make myself some char
So I know this might be slightly off-topic but I saw an interesting method to make charcoal and harness the offgasses to run a Wilys jeep. It was a show on the westher channel aired yesterday in the US. These guys built a converter that used wood and plant material in a sealed chamber (with intake vents of course) and an exhaust that went right into the carb of a 1930's era jeep that they drove around ont he show to prove it...
Hilarious, but they made some great char I would happily use in my garden
Oh, and BTW, we started a new contest some of you might be interested in... check it out!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=309451
Hilarious, but they made some great char I would happily use in my garden
Oh, and BTW, we started a new contest some of you might be interested in... check it out!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=309451
In most applications bio char should be charged, unless it stays on the surface anyway. It could be charged with good compost, but I used a soak in fish and water before using.
Anyway, once charged, I think bio char does add nutrition and build humus. It also makes homes for microbes for long term retention. I'm pretty sure it gets envolved in fungal networks too.
I'm not sure how important it is in pots though. In sandy outside soil we have here, it sure helps. If for no other reason than it holds moisture. In a good pot mix, it might not make much a difference. I guess I'll know more in a few years.
I would trust 'charged' char worked into the soil as well as topdressed. Ramial chips I would trust only topdressed.
Ramial chips worked in are likely to lock up nitrogen.
Ramial chips worked in are likely to lock up nitrogen.
il19z8rn4li1
Member
that was my experience when I was making my raised garden bed.
I used a skidster to dump mounds and made rows, and worked
my way back and forth and just filled in an area with soil.
Every few scoops i would add a solid scoop of mulch/woodchips.
So in essence I had "wood chip pockets" in my raised bed.
70'x50'
in the areas near and on top of the wood chips the plants didnt
do quiet well until about 2 yrs after I made the garden.
Fungus pops up like crazy in the spring and fall all throughout the
garden now.
More or less agreed, but the nutrient charge will be used up no? Creating a medium within the soil to prevent nutrient leeching which I was under the impression was one of the main advantages of biochar, among other benefits.
RCW can be used as a standalone amendment. Some amend nitrogen to speed up the initial process but it can be used as a sole addition. If biochar were used in the same respect, one would think a solid layer would cause issues. Hence what I was driving at is to compare the two is apples to oranges.
AFAIK...
ectomycorrhizae don't interact with dead wood chips. like all mycorrhizae they infect living roots.
RCW = ramial chipped wood = chipped wood (had to look that term up)
i'd guess you could use it subsurface in a hugelkultur type situation, kind of what it sounds like you were doing il19z8rn4li1 (how do you pronounce that?), although perhaps not deep enough to avoid that 2 year nitrogen tie up.
in sepp holtzer's method, he digs a pit and fills it with large logs, with twigs and chips packed between. then he turns the sod upside down over that to provide some initial nitrogen for the wood to begin to break down. he puts all the humus and top soil back on top of that, so the roots have at least 18+ inches before they hit the area where the wood is decomposing.
it would make a good mulch, although it might help to have it partially rotted first, or at least mixed in with compost and or leaf mold. any hard dry bits are not going to begin decomposing until they get snuggly with the proper environment.
biochar on the other hand does not decompose. it may break down into smaller and smaller particles, but they do not change to a different substance eg wood chips to humus.
i do a similar charging process to what scrappy described.
the "nutrient charge" is not used up in the sense that it leaves the biochar vacant or sterile or whatever. it is cycled.
i imagine a microcosmic version of the process that turns lava flows into rich volcanic soil. there's a lot of life growing eating shitting dying decaying etc.
plus the CEC of the biochar will hold ionic nutrients from leaching out of the soil, as mentioned.
edit: thought i'd find some pretty pictures to illustrate
ectomycorrhizae don't interact with dead wood chips. like all mycorrhizae they infect living roots.
RCW = ramial chipped wood = chipped wood (had to look that term up)
i'd guess you could use it subsurface in a hugelkultur type situation, kind of what it sounds like you were doing il19z8rn4li1 (how do you pronounce that?), although perhaps not deep enough to avoid that 2 year nitrogen tie up.
in sepp holtzer's method, he digs a pit and fills it with large logs, with twigs and chips packed between. then he turns the sod upside down over that to provide some initial nitrogen for the wood to begin to break down. he puts all the humus and top soil back on top of that, so the roots have at least 18+ inches before they hit the area where the wood is decomposing.
it would make a good mulch, although it might help to have it partially rotted first, or at least mixed in with compost and or leaf mold. any hard dry bits are not going to begin decomposing until they get snuggly with the proper environment.
biochar on the other hand does not decompose. it may break down into smaller and smaller particles, but they do not change to a different substance eg wood chips to humus.
i do a similar charging process to what scrappy described.
the "nutrient charge" is not used up in the sense that it leaves the biochar vacant or sterile or whatever. it is cycled.
i imagine a microcosmic version of the process that turns lava flows into rich volcanic soil. there's a lot of life growing eating shitting dying decaying etc.
plus the CEC of the biochar will hold ionic nutrients from leaching out of the soil, as mentioned.
edit: thought i'd find some pretty pictures to illustrate
If you can "charge" biochar, then why not do something similar with the ramial chipped wood? I know they are functionally somewhat different, but it seems reasonable that the RCW could be soaked or otherwise treated to prevent the N leaching so commonly associated with burying them. I'm just high and throwing out ideas.
The discussion has been interesting so far.
It seems that bio-char works best in soils that are already low in nutrient holding capacity or have been leached via water or other degradation routes.
The discussion has been interesting so far.
It seems that bio-char works best in soils that are already low in nutrient holding capacity or have been leached via water or other degradation routes.
MJtheIndicator
Member
Ectomycorrhizal fungi utilise large deadwood in contact with the soil – nutrients rather than carbon. ‘Ectomycorrhizal’ fungi get their sugars from live trees, but degrade dead wood and litter to access nutrients to share with their host tree
Biodiversity of Dead Wood
Fungi – Lichens - Bryophytes
Dr David Genney
I have heard the fungi like coco as well.
nkatadelgormo
Member
No till plants for nutrients guide... must see
No till plants for nutrients guide... must see
Here is a guide for plants and what minerals are produced by them for your soil. Thought this was very cool and wanted to share. Click on picture
No till plants for nutrients guide... must see
Here is a guide for plants and what minerals are produced by them for your soil. Thought this was very cool and wanted to share. Click on picture
hmm i generally don't find slideshows very convincing.
you have spurred me to do some more research tho.
certain species of mycorrhizae do produce extracellular enzymes that decompose organic compounds. however it is misleading to describe them as decomposers IMO. in most environments mycorrhizae will work symbiotically with other organisms whose main task is the breakdown of OM.
so when you see mycellium running through a rotting log or a bunch of RCW, it's likely not the mycorrhizae you're witnessing (although it may be present). rotting wood also acts as a sponge, and that would be attractive to the mycorrhizae as a reliable source of moisture. i even saw a hypothesis that suggested they may colonize dead wood simply to support their fruiting bodies.
here's some interesting reading:
ecosystem processes related to wood decay
Spatial separation of litter decomposition and mycorrhizal nitrogen uptake in a boreal forest
Mycorrhizal ecology and evolution: the past, the present, and the future
decomposers in disguise: mycorrhizal fungi as regulators of soil C dynamics in ecosystems under global change
il19z8rn4li1
Member
Hit the nail on the head brother man
It wasn't until i read this ENTIRE thread, the original and this
continued one(took me 2 weeks going straight through it a bit
every day lol, saved all special posts and almost every PDF posted
that was worthy, not to mention the bookmarks.. but i f'ing lost
those because i didn't think to back them up before i redid the laptop....),
that I discovered the hugelkultur method.
I surely didn't bury the woodchips deep enough, there was maybe only 6-10inches of soil over top, less in some spots.
after 3 yards of no till, i was still having some issues with those spots, so this year I decided to till ONLY to mix up and break up
those wood chip zones... I wont lie, it helped a lot.
now im back on the path of no-till, which is getting smoother
and smoother. Its those initial first few years that got you holding
onto your seat lol
http://www.thefrenchgardener.net/
The websites a little lovey dovey but collects a few useful pdf in one place.
The websites a little lovey dovey but collects a few useful pdf in one place.
MJtheIndicator
Member
Studies comparing ecto + deadwood vs. live bark are scarce, its bummed me out for some time. The positive notion is in that a cannabis community of growers seem to be working towards this brand of data collection. I'm proud to understand how many people in this thread are pushing to get ahead of a botancal curve. Great job on focusing this thread everyone.
I built a few beds using the hugelkultur method, going on the third year and performing well.
I have a number of places on my property where I left wood to decompose (tree remains etc) and plants that grow in those areas naturally seem to be more prone to blight, fungus, etc.
TWM suggests that in the natural scale of things you want bacterial dominant soil for plants fungal dominance for trees.
I will use leaf mold in my beds and containers but not wood chips or mulch, however I do use them outside in my ivy and herb gardens as ground cover where I walk.
The top soil is always healthier (biodiversity) in areas where I have cover crops opposed to where I have wood mulch.
I have a number of places on my property where I left wood to decompose (tree remains etc) and plants that grow in those areas naturally seem to be more prone to blight, fungus, etc.
TWM suggests that in the natural scale of things you want bacterial dominant soil for plants fungal dominance for trees.
I will use leaf mold in my beds and containers but not wood chips or mulch, however I do use them outside in my ivy and herb gardens as ground cover where I walk.
The top soil is always healthier (biodiversity) in areas where I have cover crops opposed to where I have wood mulch.
