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Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...
- Thread starter gaiusmarius
- Start date
MJtheIndicator
Member
Ill be waiting for your Side by Side thread
Its nuts I know, choosing a control strain is what will attract most doubt so I'm leaning towards something homozygous in the spirit of inert. I can understand an organic community hating on plant biometrics, but I feel we all have a long ways to go and an ocean to learn.
MJtheIndicator
Member
True, one would need a narrow set within a phylogenetic group. Would have to involve molecular sequencing and morphological matrices. I imagine one wouldn't find much until widening the geographic examples. Hypothetically, the more trouble you throw at them the closer it gets to threshold and envelope as regards secondaries. We're kidding ourselves if this hasn't been done already, but with cannabis I doubt it. I can dig where you're coming from as regards "time" and evolution though, but to be fair anything in the future which hardens data regarding cannabis taxonomy is welcome.
IMO it is a mistake to think one is using science by employing testing methods which have not been well established. Some people like me extend this line of thought to inexpensive soil tests which use water based or weak acids for extraction. I definitely extend this to the (new) sap testing as well as brix testing.
Testing pH has value but it must be done correctly. Testing run off is not valid.
For me, the application of science to natural growing is only a helpful explanation for what we observe as humans interacting with plants. If we become curious enough then we may do our own hands on research (microscopy, analysis, experimentation).
If we have discovered that there is a good response healthwise/yieldwise in our garden from a certain growing media, the application of vermicompost, compost teas or other similar inoculants we can explore research others have done to try to understand why this is happening and perhaps improve on it. e.g. provide better drainage, use no till, use a better CT maker design or alter timing or make and use fresh vermicompost.
On the other hand we might turn to scientific research in an effort to solve a pest or pathogen problem.
I believe that becoming patriotic to one researcher's paradigm does not mean that one is using science, as so many seem to think.
Very often someone has undertaken to gather a smattering of information from a number of sources and put it together into a package to call their own and market. This is not necessarily always bad but it can be when growers (customers) get tunnel vision and brainwash themselves into seeing this as the scientific way and the only way. It is also bad IMO when it is overpriced. (Like the overpriced ACT makers and biodynamic ingredients)
True science is a method of asking questions, testing those questions and forming opinion/hypotheses which lead to theory. To reach the stage of theory, something must be repeatable by third parties.
I do wonder about the validity of using a different method of cultivation for a different cultivar of the same species. I can't say that I have enough knowledge or experience to determine whether a varied soil etc. need be employed for various races of Indica. The few cultivars I have grown in living soil together have panned out just fine in my human estimation.
However I can say my hydrangeas did not do so great in the same soil for the first year or two
Testing pH has value but it must be done correctly. Testing run off is not valid.
For me, the application of science to natural growing is only a helpful explanation for what we observe as humans interacting with plants. If we become curious enough then we may do our own hands on research (microscopy, analysis, experimentation).
If we have discovered that there is a good response healthwise/yieldwise in our garden from a certain growing media, the application of vermicompost, compost teas or other similar inoculants we can explore research others have done to try to understand why this is happening and perhaps improve on it. e.g. provide better drainage, use no till, use a better CT maker design or alter timing or make and use fresh vermicompost.
On the other hand we might turn to scientific research in an effort to solve a pest or pathogen problem.
I believe that becoming patriotic to one researcher's paradigm does not mean that one is using science, as so many seem to think.
Very often someone has undertaken to gather a smattering of information from a number of sources and put it together into a package to call their own and market. This is not necessarily always bad but it can be when growers (customers) get tunnel vision and brainwash themselves into seeing this as the scientific way and the only way. It is also bad IMO when it is overpriced. (Like the overpriced ACT makers and biodynamic ingredients)
True science is a method of asking questions, testing those questions and forming opinion/hypotheses which lead to theory. To reach the stage of theory, something must be repeatable by third parties.
I do wonder about the validity of using a different method of cultivation for a different cultivar of the same species. I can't say that I have enough knowledge or experience to determine whether a varied soil etc. need be employed for various races of Indica. The few cultivars I have grown in living soil together have panned out just fine in my human estimation.
However I can say my hydrangeas did not do so great in the same soil for the first year or two
MJtheIndicator
Member
I've already noticed differences albeit anecdotal, but the Kush region and it being a forbearer even though a small regional segment compared to the geographic spread of landrace sativa can arguably come across as scientifically myopic. For me its not a matter of best, better or junk. I'm just curious even if it does come across as fad or open-source. If we consider recessive aspects in cannabis and correlate them to primary or even secondary metabolites as Weird kindly mentioned, then I feel we gain from it even if only from the merit of sharing. I'm sorry about the hydrangeas.I do wonder about the validity of using a different method of cultivation for a different cultivar of the same species. I can't say that I have enough knowledge or experience to determine whether a varied soil etc. need be employed for various races of Indica. The few cultivars I have grown in living soil together have panned out just fine in my human estimation.
However I can say my hydrangeas did not do so great in the same soil for the first year or two
@microbeman
In a little while I will take some pics for you.
I am running a columbian landrace next to some white widow and others.
It is starting to burn at the tips just so slightly, while all the hybrids are doing just swell.
I think that different cultivars will have different needs. They can be ever so slight (and we may never notice unless we look REAL close [secondary metabolite production]) or like in my case, could turn out to be a big deal (depending if this gets any worse).
In a little while I will take some pics for you.
I am running a columbian landrace next to some white widow and others.
It is starting to burn at the tips just so slightly, while all the hybrids are doing just swell.
I think that different cultivars will have different needs. They can be ever so slight (and we may never notice unless we look REAL close [secondary metabolite production]) or like in my case, could turn out to be a big deal (depending if this gets any worse).
Don't forget I am working from a perspective, real and projected of using zero fertilizers. (only well composted inputs, topdressed organic matter and top applied ct, occasional fish hyd. etc). Any prepared fertilizers can tip the scales.
In a new mix where I accidentally used too much homemade rock dust, I experienced what you described with newly planted rooted cuttings. This is because there is a component of rock powders which provides soluble nutrients.
In a new mix where I accidentally used too much homemade rock dust, I experienced what you described with newly planted rooted cuttings. This is because there is a component of rock powders which provides soluble nutrients.
I'm not sure your making a valid comparrison with field crops to indoor plants or even field crops to greenhouse cannabis grows. Yes, your always growing cannabis, and the soil might be better off with crop rotations. But I think we do get diversity when we feed a diverse diet to our pots. Or like microbeman does with a mostly compost diet. Either way with diverse inputs or high end compost, it works. I'll leave it to brainiac's to tell me why.. I just know it works for me.
If I look to nature, mono crops are fairly common. Look at some forests, where one species dominates for whatever reason. I hope to also make conditions ideal in my pots for my mono crop. So far, so good.
If there is a better way, to my mountain top, I'd like to know, until then I soldier on, like an organic drone taking my orders from microbes.
MJtheIndicator
Member
LOS is valuable technique, there's not much to knock. I'm not into knocking a proven approach, its plain silly to discredit a focused organic approach. I'm just curious to see if you can take it anywhere and if it can remain consistent in outdoor and indoor settings, beyond that would be its continuity in climate variation and finally if it can sustain a reasonable cross section of cannabis genetics. Yes I realize it sounds like a mission statement, but if I can share results with organic practitioners as regards potential boundaries or genetic threshold including climate and geographic specific performance then whats not to gain.
Why folks would insinuate its a pointless pursuit doesn't sound like qualified skepticism to me, sounds more like "THOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
Scrappy,
Good point about monocrops in nature. As far as LOS inside and outside goes. Two important differences are that outdoors your soil will go thru low temps in Winter, maybe higher temps in Summer with effects on herd, etc. Cover crops come in handy even more outside than inside, I'm betting. Also you can't control the rain outside without a roof of some kind. Leaching of nutes could be a problem. Soil Testing is in order. -granger
Good point about monocrops in nature. As far as LOS inside and outside goes. Two important differences are that outdoors your soil will go thru low temps in Winter, maybe higher temps in Summer with effects on herd, etc. Cover crops come in handy even more outside than inside, I'm betting. Also you can't control the rain outside without a roof of some kind. Leaching of nutes could be a problem. Soil Testing is in order. -granger
Scrappy, very good points, I've taken much advice from your posts.
Some things:
1. Monocrops in nature are a very different setting than an indoor grow. For many reasons. Including the rest of the organisms that are not thought of in an indoor grow.
2. Monocrops do happen, but lets not try to say that farming a monocrop for this reason is a good idea. All the monocrops I can think of are of perennials.
3. While monocrops may exist, the big picture needs to be seen, and at what scale is the monocrop truly one plant? (edges of the area may have different plants)
I think my point with this is that monocrops should really not be praised or given any credit. As they are a failure and harm on the environment in most every case.
I think what the LOS crowd has really done, is show that high quality cannabis can be grown indoors greatly & efficiently, with inexpensive, local, 'organic' inputs.
To translate this outside is another ball game, all together.
Many of the concepts translate, but many of the methods are drastically different.
Most agricultural no-til systems show a loss in yield and quality at first. The first recycled grow I did was absolutely much better in both yield and quality, and I think that translates to most growers who handle the approach appropriately.
Outdoors is a different beast than LOS, and much more valuable information on that can be found elsewhere than canna-forums.
What granger said above, is just one small aspect of the huge difference.
Some things:
1. Monocrops in nature are a very different setting than an indoor grow. For many reasons. Including the rest of the organisms that are not thought of in an indoor grow.
2. Monocrops do happen, but lets not try to say that farming a monocrop for this reason is a good idea. All the monocrops I can think of are of perennials.
3. While monocrops may exist, the big picture needs to be seen, and at what scale is the monocrop truly one plant? (edges of the area may have different plants)
I think my point with this is that monocrops should really not be praised or given any credit. As they are a failure and harm on the environment in most every case.
I think what the LOS crowd has really done, is show that high quality cannabis can be grown indoors greatly & efficiently, with inexpensive, local, 'organic' inputs.
To translate this outside is another ball game, all together.
Many of the concepts translate, but many of the methods are drastically different.
Most agricultural no-til systems show a loss in yield and quality at first. The first recycled grow I did was absolutely much better in both yield and quality, and I think that translates to most growers who handle the approach appropriately.
Outdoors is a different beast than LOS, and much more valuable information on that can be found elsewhere than canna-forums.
What granger said above, is just one small aspect of the huge difference.
MJtheIndicator
Member
I mentioned vineyards and wheat to illustrate a different point. As regards companion planting, I'm quite on the side of Three Sisters style. And I agree with the points made, beans for N, vines for cover, and larger leaf varieties i.e., mulch, facilitate microclimate. I also want to try and pin down any lacking amino in specific strain to guide the companions.
if I may.
this image has the capacity to explain how different locations may have different soil compositions. 100 cubed looks like to me. It also provides information alluding to the fact that there are a lot of variables involved with native soil, just in mineral aggregate composition alone.
plants is plants and dirt is dirt is NOT the mantra of LOS. Check your local university's ag extension if you're still confused. Local native soil is going to be different from handmade, artisan crafted LOS style soil always.
let's talk about how no-till soil compaction and nutrient stratification and some how these large acreage no-till farm issues have become my 20 gallon smart bag issue.
this image has the capacity to explain how different locations may have different soil compositions. 100 cubed looks like to me. It also provides information alluding to the fact that there are a lot of variables involved with native soil, just in mineral aggregate composition alone.
plants is plants and dirt is dirt is NOT the mantra of LOS. Check your local university's ag extension if you're still confused. Local native soil is going to be different from handmade, artisan crafted LOS style soil always.
let's talk about how no-till soil compaction and nutrient stratification and some how these large acreage no-till farm issues have become my 20 gallon smart bag issue.
il19z8rn4li1
Member
So...if i may, pull this right back round full circle...
you never heard of worms or microbes eh? lol
this guy... dare I mention Terra Preta?
large acreage takes a lot of due diligence and skillful planning in order to take full benefit
of the no-till natural style(Im far from achieving this still). Talking from experience, Ive seen the compaction issue in my
small 1/4 acre natural veggy garden. Running 7 years now, dealing with compaction for me
was adding a cover crop and mulching with comfrey and straw... the worms are crazy populous lol
Good for you!
Try topdressing small deciduous clippings - Ramial
http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php
http://www.mofga.org/Default.aspx?tabid=850
http://www.healthy-vegetable-gardening.com/fertilitysoil.html
thatonedude
Member
i keep three large rubbermaids of soil always in cycle. in the one that just came out it gets planted with a legume of some sort and allowed to grow through 2 full cycles then it is amended with worm castings and compost and used again, water in molasses with every watering, and ewc tea once every other week. the worms are feed compost so i guess i am just using nothing but compost. mix was initially 1 part pro mix to one part mushroom compost to one part composted manure to 3 parts pertlite. amended with green sand and bone meal.
that's about as kiss as it can get
that's about as kiss as it can get
I wonder how the wood chips compare to using bio char? I used bio char (store bought, mother earth brand) and compost on new apple trees this spring. And just today my wife and I were talking about how much better they look compared with apple trees I planted in just compost last year.
