Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[Organic Weed]

Scrappy... any nutrient, chemical or whatever they are, will be decomposed sooner or later... it can take hundreds of years like plastic or a few days like banana peels, but at the end pretty much gets transformed... the question here is how will it take for chemical stuff to get transformed into organic stuff... my answer is a few months. I have been talking to a lot pf professional agronomist that work with organic production (tomatoes, salad, etc) and many of them share the thought that chemicals are a great and easy way to get concentrates in areas lacking in nutrients, provided that these chemicals are mixed with soil, residues, micro organisms, fungi and micro elements in a balanced quantity and cook for a few months before being used...

 

[Weird]

you wont ever see what your missing out until you do it right. Speed of growth, leaf size and shine, % of terpenes and essential oils, and yield based on pot size and light source #'s. Nobody can show you those things, they are self realizations. some folks have the " cant miss what cha never had" attitude and are happy with what is their best grow to date or putting par with other folks with the same cut. To each their own.
Big ups to the folks pioneering new frontiers and taking it beyond where others dare to go.

Bless Up!

FE

LOL

Enjoy your heady primary metabolites and the delusion that you will get a plant's secondaries past their genetic potential which is an evolutionary co-creation dependent on specific environmental.

The very best part is that because of your scientific approach you don't understand the effect of environmental variables on secondary metabolite production

Why would I grow in temps well outside the suggested range? One that effects primary metabolite production?

If you haven't run the same exact cultivar with a variety of environmentals how you know the secondaries are being produced identically?

you don't

Enjoy smoking green plants and enjoy hedging your bet out of fear you can't get nature to do what you need it to,and enjoy the inherited perception that that is the best way to do it.

In the end what really matters is 2 lights pay my bills and I sell wholesale to people with all kinds of crazy cali/col hooks from fam to dispensary owners. Yeah I get old weed price with people who get weed from all over the country and the world.

It is all good, the reality of it is I am one of the few dudes that isn't in a breeders, nutrient company or any other financial interest I am also trying to promote.

I am sharing what works for me, and if you have a better method, be all about it, if it isn't LOS, enjoy the shit out if it.

 

[Weird]

I always enjoy your comments and like seeing things from a different perspective, I've heard to mix an amendment with ewc for top dressing, and I think you say that you even mix your ewc down with compost, sorry memory isn't perfect, when can ewc be too much of a top dressing, I know every situation is different, I grow outside irrigated, but what should I look for?
Maybe a prescription for you would be o grow outside in a relaxing place. But of course there are always responsibilities, curiosities, and passions. Or maybe not always. My guess is that you would evolve on a chunk of land and a different experience. Just a thought. None of my business I know.

I grow cannabis indoors.

Food, herbs and flowers outside. I compost, mulch and do a variety of substantive practices.

My land has not had chemicals used on it for over 20 years and I live in a very dense populated area.

I do not march to the beat of the typical LOS drum. I read how people did it and made up my own metrics and methodology for getting there.

It has helped me make comparative observations which have educated me to the organic process.

 

[Weird]

Weird I have to ask .. Only because I have went thouugh almost
all of your threads, and I dont see a single grow log or anything of the sort...

If I missed it... link me please, then Ill go whip myself for
being so foolish as to over look things.


lol



you know what they say,
.....

I did with my past user names and deleted those names and galleries in 2010 due to a variety of reasons

First one (online diary) was a 2nd run done in one of my off sties where I was trying out 600's in 2008

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].83 grams per watt in an 8x6 area, from clone to harvest in 77 days, my own strain, bred back in the 90's. Was trying AN nutes, stopped using them afterwards.

Shame I had to give this place up, cause as soon as I got the temp issues fixed.

[/FONT]

 

[Weird]

So @weird what is your soil mix? You like the combination of synthetic and organic or the full organic water only-no till? Even 10oz in a 5 gallon only water and AACT sounds amazing- hook me up with the details dude thanks!

I personally do not add any salts to my LOS garden as I see it as being counter productive to the methodology.

I have grown organically with "salts" and bottled microbiology. It is a great methodology and it has even has a place in sustainability.

This is all beyond the concept of replicating nature soil systems and works best when you have an incomplete natural system, but is not required when you have a vibrant one.

My mix I posted a page back basically what I used to do this.

My castings were high quality as were the compost and I did not rely on my own sources to start my soil.

Premeir, agrowinn and coast of maine.

I do have mulch, leaf litter and compost outside as well as beds and other sustainable agro methodology that I am doing parallel so I can feel confident I have a like performing product.

My worm activity is proof that I made a soil that is worm compatible and that compatibility (ohh shit those fuckers are still thriving, that must mean the bacteria is too) being sustained tells me that the soil is still within working range.

Those are my metrics.

Now something about a starting mix. I evolved from the basic LCs mix to LOS mix (very similar) and did so based on what I wanted as a result (I purposely grow low input have for years it is how I prefer to grow)

The mix i posted seems to be rich enough for some plants but a bit lean for others especially based on light density and plant size.

Things that effect your soil requirements in LOS are amount of soil and projected biomass.

The more soil, the more nutrient potential, the stronger the light the more nutrient required.

The mix I posted is a great base, for me, based on how I used it.

I will answer any specific questions regarding it.

 

[Weird]

when I was using bottles to feed 3:1 peat and 10% castings

my last organic mix was this.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6894575&postcount=607

 

[Weird]

Scrappy... any nutrient, chemical or whatever they are, will be decomposed sooner or later... it can take hundreds of years like plastic or a few days like banana peels, but at the end pretty much gets transformed... the question here is how will it take for chemical stuff to get transformed into organic stuff... my answer is a few months. I have been talking to a lot pf professional agronomist that work with organic production (tomatoes, salad, etc) and many of them share the thought that chemicals are a great and easy way to get concentrates in areas lacking in nutrients, provided that these chemicals are mixed with soil, residues, micro organisms, fungi and micro elements in a balanced quantity and cook for a few months before being used...

if the chem is in ionic form it doesn't get converted it is readily available

this is why it is a sign of inadequate performance in LOS because if your LOS is at prime performance you shouldn't need it for optimal results

chems can kill microbiology and disrupt the natural nutrient cycle which makes it counter-intuitive in regards to micro herd

When you combine both methods, certain microbiology and natural soil components actually increase the efficiency in which these chemicals are taken up causing them to burn at lower rates.

This is why so many people fuck up their plants when they try a full product line that replicates all the components of the nutrient cycle because they have a synergistic effect.

Many of these additional nutrient lines have labels that state this as the benefit, which is where I learned it from.

I can not state it enough times, I come in from the underfeed for a reason. Most people will not try this because they are AFRAID of getting anything but maximum results.

I lost one crop in over 20 years of hard cropping to a failed circuit that ran my ebb and flow circulation pumps and I can't really call it a loss because when I was trimming it preparing to hash it for myself someone offered me 60% of what i normally got for it.

Not bad for 4.5 weeks

lol fucking pot induced tangents, sorry.

I am not saying is is impossible to keep a microherd or even other soil components like worms intact when using chems, but it is not organic gardening, it is transitional or hybrid gardening.

I am not arguing methodology based on anything but my own preference and desire to learn the process well enough I can get superior results consistently without anything added but organic precursors that meet a certain quality standard that are processed by a natural soil system.

If you are arguing against that potential well I am sure you have results that back those claims up, aka your non living soil efforts are superior to your LOS efforts.

When my results are no longer acceptable and my 20 years of cropping experience no longer relevant maybe I will deviate course.

Haven't seen the weed out there yet that will make me do it.

Hopefully I do, I am open to being re educated.

 

[CACTUSFLOWER]

I grow cannabis indoors.

Food, herbs and flowers outside. I compost, mulch and do a variety of substantive practices.

My land has not had chemicals used on it for over 20 years and I live in a very dense populated area.

I do not march to the beat of the typical LOS drum. I read how people did it and made up my own metrics and methodology for getting there.

It has helped me make comparative observations which have educated me to the organic process.

What's the biggest difference in your approach inside compared to outside?

 

[Weird]

I use what I believe to be tried and true methods and components indoors

that is I look at everyone using a method, all their critiques, all the common denominators that they claim offer success and I come up with an applicable strategy.

if I get failed efforts first person I assume fucked up was me, either by doing it wrong or by trusting the information in the first place, which is why I try to do things in measures and degrees when I am learning something for comparative differences.


But to the first part. This is why I don't stir the pot when people have a topic and share their methodology.

This is a huge gift of learning when someone else spends the time to do something, whether you like the results or not, they are in some way shape or from, saving you the efforts of having to do so to make some cursory decision on how to use it.

I also had some guidance from some brothers (fellow growers) that shared their efforts and their results to give me some comparative bias.

The organic threads are invaluable for this because the difference with bottles and other gardening practices is bottles require you read a label an apply within a small set of variables.

Organics is not that clear cut and there are no real instructions but starting points that may or may not give you what you are looking for based on starting materials and application.

Regardless of the science you need to have the knowledge and the applicable experience relative the environment you are working in to pull it off.

Thus my statement about people putting primary metabolite performance (greed) over secondary metabolite performance (the buzz).

I grow in low temps. temps below best known operating range because some strains are so much better when smoked if you do so.

Makes them pretty too, but you can't smoke pretty, but I guess that is in the eye of the beholder(or someone who knows certain strains show preferential terpen profiles when there is a specific night time temp difference, one most don't like growing in and knows when they look like that because of it they will smoke insanely well).

I do know the grow game though, very intimately, and for a very long time, and through many different lenses

However to me it is not a game, it is not a job, it is a passion, and not for anything but the best medicine I can produce.

Producing the best meds has always left me feeling somewhat "blessed"

 

[il19z8rn4li1]

Good ol mother nature.

My herb garden is flowering now, and they are looking amazing.

About to hit them up with a solid mulching of some aged garden compost,
Comfrey clippings, some worms and then a nice kelp/alfalfa tea over top of it all.

Going to pull back the straw mulch first though.

I think ill add some Comfrey to the tea also, let that brew for about 36hr.

I'll update pics on Thursday.

 

[heady blunts]

weird what's your fave smoke lately?

 

[bobblehead]

"FAQ 5
Frequently we see statements in the lay literature about chemical fertilizers killing soil microbes or, worse yet, statements indicating these management inputs "sterilize" the soil. Statements such as these should be viewed with much skepticism! Remember that as we learned in FAQ #1, the soil can contain tons of microbes. Short of incineration its hard to imagine a stress in a soil that would lead to complete extermination of the microbial populations. It is true that some inputs, e.g., anhydrous ammonia, cause reductions in microbial numbers in the immediate vicinity of the application. After all, ammonia is a toxic gas. However, it quickly equilibrates with the soil solution in the form of ammonium ions and the toxicity subsides. Certain pesticides have been shown to cause similar transient reductions in selected microbial population. But remember, in some cases the microbes simply view these chemicals as food and degrade them fairly quickly.

Organic fertilizers circumvent the criticisms leveled at "synthetic" fertilizers but it should not be forgotten that plants take up nitrogen in the form of ammonium (NH4+) or nitrate (NO3-) ions regardless of whether it was mineralized from an organic source or applied as in inorganic fertilizer like ammonium nitrate. An advantage of using organics, where practical, is that nutrients are liberated slowly as the microbes mineralize the organic materials. Thus there is low risk for fertilizer burn on plants and less risk for environmental problems due to runoff and leaching. Another potentially negative effect of long-term use of ammonia-based fertilizers is soil acidification due to ammonia oxidation by the nitrifying bacteria. Soil pH can drop below 5.0 after prolonged use of ammonia-based fertilizers and this can cause marked reductions in populations of bacteria and actinomycetes and simultaneous increases in the relative abundance of fungi. Such changes might favor the development of certain fungal plant pathogens. On the other hand, the potato scab disease is reduced by the low pH because the actinomycete which causes it is eliminated. These changes are easily reversed with applications of lime to the soil. Thus we see qualitative changes in the soil populations due to some management inputs but this is a long way from "sterilizing" or "killing" the soil.

With the advent of high-sand golf greens questions have arisen about the need for applying microbes during green construction and thereafter. Sand because of its lack of organic matter supports little microbial growth. However, when mixed with peats, composted rice hulls or other organic amendments it gains the microbial populations associated with those materials. Turfgrasses established from vegetative sprigs also bring their root-associated microbes with them! Once the turfgrass begins growing in the rooting medium of the green, microbes already present will colonize roots and the mechanics of soil organic matter formation will commence. A reasonable practice would be to add a small amount of normal pathogen-free soil to the greens mix as an inoculum. Thus far, there is little scientific evidence indicating the need to inoculate golf greens with selected microorganisms. The newly constructed green does afford us the possibility of customizing the soil population to some extent. Once we know what we want in these mixes it may be easier to add them "up front" than to add them into an established population already adapted to the prevailing conditions of a particular soil. As our knowledge of soil microbial biodiversity and the factors that control it increases we may find ways of tailoring microbial populations in given environments. At this point, we are limited in what we can do to this effect."

http://organiclifestyles.tamu.edu/soil/microbeindex.html

 

[bobblehead]

"Effect of Nitrogen on Organic Matter

Excess nitrogen applications stimulate increased microbial activity that speeds organic matter decomposition. The extra nitrogen narrows the ratio of carbon to nitrogen in the soil. The native soil carbon to nitrogen ratio (C:N ratio) is around 12:1. At this ratio, populations of decay bacteria are kept at a stable level (20). When large amounts of inorganic nitrogen are added, the C:N ratio is reduced, which increases the populations of decay organisms and allows them to decompose more organic matter. While soil bacteria can efficiently use moderate applications of inorganic nitrogen accompanied by organic amendments (carbon), excess nitrogen causes bacteria populations to explode, decomposing existing organic matter at a rapid rate.

Excess nitrogen stimulates increased microbial activity that speeds organic matter decomposition.

Eventually, soil carbon content may be reduced to a level where the bacterial populations are on a starvation diet. With little carbon available, bacterial populations shrink and less free soil nitrogen is absorbed. Thereafter, applied nitrogen, rather than being cycled through microbial organisms and re-released to plants slowly over time, becomes subject to leaching. This can greatly reduce the efficiency of fertilization and lead to environmental problems.

To compensate for the fast decomposition of native soil organic matter, carbon should be added with nitrogen. Typical sources–such as green manures, animal manure and compost–serve this purpose well. Amendments containing too high a carbon to nitrogen ratio (25:1 or more) can tip the balance the other way, resulting in nitrogen tied up in an unavailable form. The soil organisms consume all the nitrogen in an effort to decompose the abundant carbon. The nitrogen is unavailable because it is tied up in the soil organisms themselves. As soon as one dies and decomposes, its nitrogen is consumed by another soil organism until the balance between carbon and nitrogen is achieved again.

Go To Top


Fertilizer Amendments and Biologically Active Soils

What are the soil mineral conditions that foster biologically active soils? Drawing from the work of Dr. William Albrecht (1888 to 1974), agronomist at the University of Missouri, we learn that balance is the key. Albrecht advocated bringing soil nutrients in balance so that none were in excess or deficient. Albrecht's theory (also called base-saturation theory) is used to guide lime and fertilizer application by measuring and evaluating the ratios of positively charged nutrients (bases) held in the soil. The positively charged bases include calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, ammonium nitrogen, and several trace minerals. When optimum ratios of bases exist, the soil is believed to support high biological activity, becomes resistant to leaching, and has optimal physical properties (water intake and aggregation). The plants growing on such a soil are also balanced in mineral levels and are nutritious to humans and animals alike."

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010117attrasoilmanual/010117attra.html

 

[bobblehead]

I practice what I preach.

 

[pnwmystery]

How long would one of you guys let reamended soil sit? Does it depend on the inputs and all that?

 

[Weird]

Awesome, you need to optimize your using transitional gardening based on theory.

Isn't that special. Now why not go to a forum that embraces that form of growing.

FWIF ou still haven't proved Albrecht's theory (guess that is why it is still a theory) or even established that his methodology outproduces healthy living organic soil in the first place.

Does prove you have a lack of confidence in the process either based on your lack of successful application or your research that told you the same.

Now this isn't theory, it is fact

Miracle grow: Indian farmers smash crop yield records without GMOs or chemicals

http://grist.org/food/miracle-grow-indian-farmers-smash-crop-yield-records-without-gmos/

Bihar potato farmer sets new world record

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/bihar-potato-farmer-sets-new-world-record-513698

 

[MJtheIndicator]

I practice what I preach.
View Image

Boron low? Maybe some expanded shale if you don't mind the particle size. I'm not even going to mention Borax at the risk of opening another quantum rift.

 

[CACTUSFLOWER]

I use what I believe to be tried and true methods and components indoors

that is I look at everyone using a method, all their critiques, all the common denominators that they claim offer success and I come up with an applicable strategy.

if I get failed efforts first person I assume fucked up was me, either by doing it wrong or by trusting the information in the first place, which is why I try to do things in measures and degrees when I am learning something for comparative differences.


But to the first part. This is why I don't stir the pot when people have a topic and share their methodology.

This is a huge gift of learning when someone else spends the time to do something, whether you like the results or not, they are in some way shape or from, saving you the efforts of having to do so to make some cursory decision on how to use it.

I also had some guidance from some brothers (fellow growers) that shared their efforts and their results to give me some comparative bias.

The organic threads are invaluable for this because the difference with bottles and other gardening practices is bottles require you read a label an apply within a small set of variables.

Organics is not that clear cut and there are no real instructions but starting points that may or may not give you what you are looking for based on starting materials and application.

Regardless of the science you need to have the knowledge and the applicable experience relative the environment you are working in to pull it off.

Thus my statement about people putting primary metabolite performance (greed) over secondary metabolite performance (the buzz).

I grow in low temps. temps below best known operating range because some strains are so much better when smoked if you do so.

Makes them pretty too, but you can't smoke pretty, but I guess that is in the eye of the beholder(or someone who knows certain strains show preferential terpen profiles when there is a specific night time temp difference, one most don't like growing in and knows when they look like that because of it they will smoke insanely well).

I do know the grow game though, very intimately, and for a very long time, and through many different lenses

However to me it is not a game, it is not a job, it is a passion, and not for anything but the best medicine I can produce.

Producing the best meds has always left me feeling somewhat "blessed"

My bud is naturally cooler in the fall during the second half of flowering. Do you think cooler temperatures throughout the growing season produce better bud or smoking experience? Is the daytime nighttime differential beneficial?

 

[Weird]

imho some strains are effected beneficially when they experience a nighttime temp differential esp strains that have genes that come from temperate zones that have evolved in an environment that had that same element.

Basically matching environment to cultivar land race traits.

Wasn't by design but through observation when I grew outdoors during fall.

Conversely strains don't like those conditions will do poorly such as sativas.

I find it very interesting to see how hybrids react to this. For example I found casey jones cut was a different plant in higher temps than it was in lower temps.

I don't think it is necessary to drop temps till later on in flowering for the benefit, I don't have that kind of granular control to reliably test the theory.

IIRC there was something in mel franks book about it

 

[Weird]

weird what's your fave smoke lately?

two strains I was running before I came online, have one in flower now for head