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Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...
- Thread starter gaiusmarius
- Start date
I think you are doing a bang up job of spreading some useful information relevant to the LOS thread Weird. Personally, i know that my results speak for themselves. When it comes to quality, complexity, and overall plant health and environmental balance and impact nothing has come close to the results i get from using LOS/ROLS/OLS etc. 
It does seem a bit forced when so many people start coming in here asking antagonistic questions and appear to be wanting to de-rail the thread with inconsequential minutiae.
I would have to mirror Weird's apparent feelings on the matter. If people have an ideological beef with this growing method, then why the insistence on being adversarial?
Some people here are large scale growers and some are closet gardeners. I'm a personal/med grower and don't have rooms full of plants. Quality and ethical coherence are of the utmost importance and non negotiable. If someone has an issue with the idea of growing as harmoniously as possible with the planet, then start your own thread and bash things there.
Robust dialog and questions are certainly important for advancing our observational data base and this thread, but nit picking or otherwise coming at things sidewise seems very strange at the very least. Peace to the peaceful minded.
It does seem a bit forced when so many people start coming in here asking antagonistic questions and appear to be wanting to de-rail the thread with inconsequential minutiae.
I would have to mirror Weird's apparent feelings on the matter. If people have an ideological beef with this growing method, then why the insistence on being adversarial?
Some people here are large scale growers and some are closet gardeners. I'm a personal/med grower and don't have rooms full of plants. Quality and ethical coherence are of the utmost importance and non negotiable. If someone has an issue with the idea of growing as harmoniously as possible with the planet, then start your own thread and bash things there.
Robust dialog and questions are certainly important for advancing our observational data base and this thread, but nit picking or otherwise coming at things sidewise seems very strange at the very least. Peace to the peaceful minded.
MJ-
I am not trying to bash, or say you are wrong, or anything negative. I am truly just asking you why salt is appropriate or necessary if silt is the cornerstone? What makes salt important with silt, rather than clay, sand, or peat mix?
MJtheIndicator
Member
I never said necessary, but if salt is present as wouldl be the case with silt derived from estuaries then learning to construct a loam with what you have at your proximate regional disposal will introduce a salt index some folks might not be used to or even reject. With this dialogue in mind I'll attempt to record results of sodium presence in the ustorthents, ustochrepts, haplustolls and ustifluvents I am able to test.
Organic gardening is just that
organic matter that has salt in it, is an organic precursor, salts that are used in organics means you are no longer organic gardening
it is called transitional gardening and if you think it is so superior that you should be in this thread derailing organic processes then show those life changing plants
well please show them plants, show them here, ill show the ones i grew years ago the same way, without meters or pens, because transitional growing is so fucking easy if you need those tools to pull it off you seriously lack skills.
MJ-
So you are referencing sodium in particular? Or naturally found salts never estuaries.
This is very different than fertilizer salts. Which changes the discussion drastically.
A difference between adding synthetically created fertilizer salts, and naturally occurring mineral salts.
Naturally occuring trace amounts of chlorides, bromides, sulfates, bicarbonates, nitrates.
IS NOT THE SAME AS
Synthetically created 300ppm of ammonium nitrate, etc.
I would agree that those trace amounts might be necessary or helpful to a system.
MJtheIndicator
Member
Apologies, I should have said salts as a general term and sodium in reference to sodic soil and potential toxicity. Keep in mind the conversation shifted when I mentioned silt, at which point I would agree that we aren't discussing Chilean salt peter. I feel awkward now talking about such matters in this thread because of the lack of community it has caused, I'm sorry for my ignorance and lack of hindsight in this respect. I would prefer a comfortable environment where farmers can have freedom to think and be creative or curious, to fail and succeed as family, peer and colleague rather than foe or competition.
MJ-
Just because the mob jumps on you, doesn't mean the whole town has. I think that when talking about something so similar to synthetics, you're going to get bad reception putting it into a positive light here.
So many terms are misnomers here: organic, salt, ROLS, etc.
Using one of these without defining your use is going to bring a semantic argument hurdling your way.
I try to be as clear as possible asking questions, this can often come off as attacking rather than clarifying.
I often try to post off topic during arguments as well, to sway back to informational talk.
Just because the mob jumps on you, doesn't mean the whole town has. I think that when talking about something so similar to synthetics, you're going to get bad reception putting it into a positive light here.
So many terms are misnomers here: organic, salt, ROLS, etc.
Using one of these without defining your use is going to bring a semantic argument hurdling your way.
I try to be as clear as possible asking questions, this can often come off as attacking rather than clarifying.
I often try to post off topic during arguments as well, to sway back to informational talk.
il19z8rn4li1
Member
Allow me to inject a new acronym for you all to quarrel over lol
(please take a moment to GOOGLE, quarrel, I think most
of the peeps in the "KNOW" will get a good chuckle from it hahah)
"NLS" I believe it rolls off the tongue better then the rest
"Natural Living Soil"
OMG whats "Natural" mean...
OMG whats "Living" mean...
OMG whats "Soil" mean...
STFU who cares lol
HAHAHAH
Here's my current NLS(OH OH OH lol )
They were in this...
Equal parts.
25% of each roughly.
SPMoss
Coco
Aged Garden Compost
Vermiculite/Perlite
Limed the Peat portion accordingly with a
Oyster Flour/Gypsum mixture at 2tbsp per gallon of peat
OR 1cup per 1cu ft of peat, I did the 1 cup so it came to
less then 2tbsp per gallon of peat.
Then to the entire volume, i added my amendment of the following mixture.
equal parts,
Neem
Crab
Kelp
that mixture I added 1tbsp per gallon of the total soil/soilless mix.
(ive read some people considering a SOIL MIX only a SOIL MIX
when its at least 33% HUMUS, aka EWC or "COMPOST",
I put compost in QUOTES, because there is only such thing as COMPOST... anything else isnt compost... ie: aged compost... cured compost.. all that jive... IMO that is... purely IN MY OPINION lol,
not to mention just goes along the lines of many books ive read
on horticulture and botany)
I moistened the mixture pretty good, and let it sit in a tub
for about 2 weeks, mixing it every few days.
Transplanted and hit them with a few botanical teas and
a few tablespoons of EWC as a top dress.
Strawed them over for a mulch, isnt to effective at holding moisture
in just yet... the straw is still pretty fresh, but once I throw some
nice compost over top of it, it will do well, along with a nice alfalfa
or comfrey tea will def do the trick.
These babies were all raped for cuttings yesterday,
so the canopy is a lot more even now but they are also
about .. HALF the size lol... So they are some
squat plants now. But the roots should be thriving.
They were flipped into flower yesterday, the 9th, today will be their
first FULL flower day/night cycle.
Flowering under LEDs.
Not to shabby for just a lil bit of crab/kelp/neem and
a few alfalfa and kelp teas.
Man, havent posted pics here in a while... what a PITA lol...
It's not to stream line lol
(please take a moment to GOOGLE, quarrel, I think most
of the peeps in the "KNOW" will get a good chuckle from it hahah)
"NLS"
I believe it rolls off the tongue better then the rest "Natural Living Soil"
OMG whats "Natural" mean...
OMG whats "Living" mean...
OMG whats "Soil" mean...
STFU who cares lol
HAHAHAH
Here's my current NLS(OH OH OH lol )
They were in this...
Equal parts.
25% of each roughly.
SPMoss
Coco
Aged Garden Compost
Vermiculite/Perlite
Limed the Peat portion accordingly with a
Oyster Flour/Gypsum mixture at 2tbsp per gallon of peat
OR 1cup per 1cu ft of peat, I did the 1 cup so it came to
less then 2tbsp per gallon of peat.
Then to the entire volume, i added my amendment of the following mixture.
equal parts,
Neem
Crab
Kelp
that mixture I added 1tbsp per gallon of the total soil/soilless mix.
(ive read some people considering a SOIL MIX only a SOIL MIX
when its at least 33% HUMUS, aka EWC or "COMPOST",
I put compost in QUOTES, because there is only such thing as COMPOST... anything else isnt compost... ie: aged compost... cured compost.. all that jive... IMO that is... purely IN MY OPINION lol,
not to mention just goes along the lines of many books ive read
on horticulture and botany)
I moistened the mixture pretty good, and let it sit in a tub
for about 2 weeks, mixing it every few days.
Transplanted and hit them with a few botanical teas and
a few tablespoons of EWC as a top dress.
Strawed them over for a mulch, isnt to effective at holding moisture
in just yet... the straw is still pretty fresh, but once I throw some
nice compost over top of it, it will do well, along with a nice alfalfa
or comfrey tea will def do the trick.
These babies were all raped for cuttings yesterday,
so the canopy is a lot more even now but they are also
about .. HALF the size lol... So they are some
squat plants now. But the roots should be thriving.
They were flipped into flower yesterday, the 9th, today will be their
first FULL flower day/night cycle.
Flowering under LEDs.
Not to shabby for just a lil bit of crab/kelp/neem and
a few alfalfa and kelp teas.
Man, havent posted pics here in a while... what a PITA lol...
It's not to stream line lol
CACTUSFLOWER
Member
I don't want to get things off track, and I haven't read the whole thread, feel free to tell me to go back and read or use a search button, can someone explain what transitional growing is?
it means when you use organic and synthetic fertilizers together
it is a great technique in many regards and does have a place in sustainable farming as well
there is nothing wrong with the product from those techniques but the reality of it is the value add of processed fertilizers (synthetic or organic) is avoiding the learning curve that comes with living organic soil.
But to recap for those who don't understand the history, there has always been a rotating crew of people applying organics here in the forums and a collective of dudes who for some reason feel it is necessary to come in and questions organics as if it were a religion INSTEAD of mastering all the various techniques and making their own experiential conclusions
Never see the tables turned the other way, organics guys lurking hydro forums with non relevant comparative comments
noob behavior that goes away after you learn to handle the expanded ego that comes with an expanded mind
it would be like a hps guy going into micro grow forums to tell people they are doing it wrong
it is a great technique in many regards and does have a place in sustainable farming as well
there is nothing wrong with the product from those techniques but the reality of it is the value add of processed fertilizers (synthetic or organic) is avoiding the learning curve that comes with living organic soil.
But to recap for those who don't understand the history, there has always been a rotating crew of people applying organics here in the forums and a collective of dudes who for some reason feel it is necessary to come in and questions organics as if it were a religion INSTEAD of mastering all the various techniques and making their own experiential conclusions
Never see the tables turned the other way, organics guys lurking hydro forums with non relevant comparative comments
noob behavior that goes away after you learn to handle the expanded ego that comes with an expanded mind
it would be like a hps guy going into micro grow forums to tell people they are doing it wrong
This place reeks like a church. A few more people sparing with budshots and it'll be just like every other forum/thread.
Ah think that's a result of a habit you've already explained, re: you don't spend much time in those sub-forums/threads.
But it does happen. Have you met my buddy Team Microbe? Evangelist Missionary would be putting it lightly, but then converts are usually very rigid and passionate to an extreme.
Ah think that's a result of a habit you've already explained, re: you don't spend much time in those sub-forums/threads.
But it does happen. Have you met my buddy Team Microbe? Evangelist Missionary would be putting it lightly, but then converts are usually very rigid and passionate to an extreme.
Why so much negativity in your enlightened state Weird? Kinda ironic you talking about handling your expanded ego.
My research indicates that salts can jump start nutrient cycling and actually increase overall biological activity. My beds are only 1.5 years old. Still fairly new, and could benefit from the limited application of a few salts.
oyster shell contains at least 4600 mg/kg Na
http://www.botanic-culture.se/OstreaPage1_000.pdf
And since you asked...
My research indicates that salts can jump start nutrient cycling and actually increase overall biological activity. My beds are only 1.5 years old. Still fairly new, and could benefit from the limited application of a few salts.
oyster shell contains at least 4600 mg/kg Na
http://www.botanic-culture.se/OstreaPage1_000.pdf
And since you asked...
He started it!
He started it!
He started it!
LOL your research shows that salts jump start the nutrient cycle
please qualify how you proved salts in the rhizosphere increased the microbial process that breaks down organic matter and turns it into plant available nutrient
if you think because your plants grew fast right away its not because you jump started the nutrient cycle, you simply made up for the lack of activity by feeding ionicly
But beyond that your using salts in beds and are happy with that performance?
fwiw the minute you add salts its no longer organic so don't pretend and your biomass per gallon of soil is not impressive
first let me set a baseline with straight salt fertilizer performance.
here are some synthetically grown plants from 09
first run in this space, 5 1/2 weeks, strains, my own, from seed, co2 but not a sealed room
a side project I had going on approx at the same time
No CO2 peat and salts
please qualify how you proved salts in the rhizosphere increased the microbial process that breaks down organic matter and turns it into plant available nutrient
if you think because your plants grew fast right away its not because you jump started the nutrient cycle, you simply made up for the lack of activity by feeding ionicly
But beyond that your using salts in beds and are happy with that performance?
fwiw the minute you add salts its no longer organic so don't pretend and your biomass per gallon of soil is not impressive
first let me set a baseline with straight salt fertilizer performance.
here are some synthetically grown plants from 09
first run in this space, 5 1/2 weeks, strains, my own, from seed, co2 but not a sealed room
a side project I had going on approx at the same time
No CO2 peat and salts
