Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[Weird]

ok joe then do this if your so confident of that then make your own nutes using run off and use them at the same rates as a bottled synth nutes and get back to me

if you have used chemical fertilizers you should know what over fertilization looks like even if its just nitrogen, conversely if you have grown long enough you understand a cultivars growth factor.

If too much nitrogen was a factor, it would be apparent in the plant as well as the run off.

I haven't had that problem so why would I measure my run off? Why would I test my soil?

Did you see that each of my plants has dozens of earthworms in the pots thriving?

Too much nitrogen kills them.

How did you measure the nitrogen to protein conversion when you sprayed minerals on em?

Did you measure the mineral Mg and Mo content before and after?

Did you pay money for that spray, so you could convert something you couldn't measure on a hunch that something in there you couldn't measure was actually there?

what was the anecdotal evidence? where they really green at harvest?

do you get where I am going with this?

 

[milkyjoe]

I think you misunderstood...oh well...time to go

Not because I am not trying...I am. Wish I did...honestly

 

[milkyjoe]

ok joe then do this if your so confident of that then make your own nutes using run off and use them at the same rates as a bottled synth nutes and get back to me

if you have used chemical fertilizers you should know what over fertilization looks like even if its just nitrogen, conversely if you have grown long enough you understand a cultivars growth factor.

If too much nitrogen was a factor, it would be apparent in the plant as well as the run off.

I haven't had that problem so why would I measure my run off? Why would I test my soil?

Did you see that each of my plants has dozens of earthworms in the pots thriving?

Too much nitrogen kills them.

How did you measure the nitrogen to protein conversion when you sprayed minerals on em?

Did you measure the mineral Mg and Mo content before and after?

Did you pay money for that spray, so you could convert something you couldn't measure on a hunch that something in there you couldn't measure was actually there?

what was the anecdotal evidence? where they really green at harvest?

do you get where I am going with this?

if you honestly want me to answer this point for point you gotta wait...we are doing dabs and I am semi retarded right now.

If you don't wanna test don't. I am merely trying to find out where other people stand.

And where did I say I was confident of anything. Pretty sure I said I have one data point...me...proving absolutely nothing.

You seem really sensitive bro...have a dab with me. If I can learn from you I want to...no need to get upset...either way

 

[Weird]

I am not communicating well. I get tissue analysis...but beyond a certain smell point they will not do it. Legality question. Nothing to do with smell and when to harvest.

I do not know protein to nitrate at harvest because of that...the point I was failing to make.

My plants are greener than yours at the end but fading some. More to do with base cations in my experience...but that is a different argument

I do not know for a fact. I admit that. But I am looking for evidence. Shouldnt we all be

Coots mix is a very ambiguous term as a scientific qualification.

I don't have the same problems, but if I had too much nitrogen I wouldn't need a pen to measure it, nor to correct it.

I was growing before pens were reasonably available and tissue tests are still not an option so we had to rely on good old common sense.

It is this simple, I come in from the underfeed and work it up from there.

You can always foliar feed a margin of what you feed the soil and fix any problems before they manifest and nail it at harvest.

In the end you still use less than the optimal required fertilizer amounts because of the efficiency of absorption leaf versus root uptake.

If you don't burn root systems you won't lose growth potential so you ride underfeed without loss of growth by using a hybrid approach.

You can't repair root burn without loss of biomass during the root repair process, the plant spends energy healing and losses energy cause of dead roots.

Traditional, transitional, organic, living soil, I have used the same methods to grow amazing plants many many times

I really wonder how many people here would be able to grow without smart phones, internet, meters and other peoples devices all of which are only a couple decades old

 

[Weird]

if you honestly want me to answer this point for point you gotta wait...we are doing dabs and I am semi retarded right now.

If you don't wanna test don't. I am merely trying to find out where other people stand.

And where did I say I was confident of anything. Pretty sure I said I have one data point...me...proving absolutely nothing.

You seem really sensitive bro...have a dab with me. If I can learn from you I want to...no need to get upset...either way

Ill take a dab and im sorry if i come off confrontational

Based on how I had to learn to grow, I use different indices to gauge results, and they have served me adequately.

I am not saying your methods are nonsense, I just can't identify with how they will help in your equation based on my experience and methodologies.

And to be honest sometimes I don't think they are as effective in problem solving as people think they are, which is why personally I could not justify them in the end.

 

[dociron]

It is this simple, I come in from the underfeed and work it up from there.

You can always foliar feed a margin of what you feed the soil and fix any problems before they manifest and nail it at harvest.

In the end you still use less than the optimal required fertilizer amounts because of the efficiency of absorption leaf versus root uptake.

If you don't burn root systems you won't lose growth potential so you ride underfeed without loss of growth by using a hybrid approach.

You can't repair root burn without loss of biomass during the root repair process, the plant spends energy healing and losses energy cause of dead roots.

Traditional, transitional, organic, living soil, I have used the same methods to grow amazing plants many many times

I really wonder how many people here would be able to grow without smart phones, internet, meters and other peoples devices all of which are only a couple decades old

Hello, we've never conversed before, it's about time we did. I've been "In the garden" since 1963. I definitely predate the parameters you just stated.
I'm pleased to meet you!!

 

[dank.frank]

Milky - my only concern is I know you follow (or work along the lines of) the same premises that BYF does.

If I'm not mistaken, you guys have been working to delay natural senescence by the foliar application of specific minerals for the purpose of increasing yield potentials...

Is it possible, that by delaying naturally triggered plant senescence you have also indirectly forced the plant to need more N to support the call for extended flower production? Could the plant not be sending chemical signals from the root zone that call for the microbe populations to continue supplying N - and thus the reason you have so much excess at the end of the cycle? (hopefully you are following my line of thinking)

Reading the conversation between yourself and Weird -to add my own anecdotal opinion, it has been my personal experience - at a certain point - it becomes completely irrelevant as to what remains in the soil because once the plant enters into senescence the plant naturally stops feeding from the root zone as it enters the end of it's life cycle...making it some what of a moot concern...

I mean, I know there are times where I want a plant to finish in a specific time frame based on my weekly schedules - and I'll simply stop water and let the roots suffocate and by doing so force the plant to use the reserves in it's leaves to sustain itself. This however, is completely unnecessary when I let a plant mature fully and harvest it when it decides it is ready on it's own...

Just a thought...



dank.Frank

 

[Weird]

I will say this, when i started using amendments and building soil that way I cut the recipes way down and built them up slowly over time with different amendments so I would come to understand the difference in terms of plant growth.

You don't have to do this en masse, you can put several plants to the side in different mixes with different rations to learn at an accelerated rate without effecting your main production.

But like I said I can fix underfeed easily and still do ok, its more work and sometimes I get distracted and it hurts me, but tbh because I entered LOS as a learning experience I didn't fuck up my results by over doing anything.

Most people want optimal results off the bat so and think that with due diligence study and material will make that happen and I think that mentality closes the mind to "this is a learning experience" so in essence we get in our own way by being a bit grandiose in our desired results.

The results of mastery, requires mastery, which requires experience. This part of it can't be avoided. Desiring optimal results without it is simply a recipe for disappointment.

Sadly most people aren't intuitive enough to realize they sabotage their own results.

If your plants were green that was all the proof you needed the mix was to rich for your environment and tastes, at some point it becomes subjective.

I don't think most LOS or organic guys for that matter really worry all that much about fade tbh however, but for me it is a important matter of preference.

 

[Weird]

Milky - my only concern is I know you follow (or work along the lines of) the same premises that BYF does.

If I'm not mistaken, you guys have been working to delay natural senescence by the foliar application of specific minerals for the purpose of increasing yield potentials...

Is it possible, that by delaying naturally triggered plant senescence you have also indirectly forced the plant to need more N to support the call for extended flower production? Could the plant not be sending chemical signals from the root zone that call for the microbe populations to continue supplying N - and thus the reason you have so much excess at the end of the cycle? (hopefully you are following my line of thinking)

Reading the conversation between yourself and Weird -to add my own anecdotal opinion, it has been my personal experience - at a certain point - it becomes completely irrelevant as to what remains in the soil because once the plant enters into senescence the plant naturally stops feeding from the root zone as it enters the end of it's life cycle...making it some what of a moot concern...

I mean, I know there are times where I want a plant to finish in a specific time frame based on my weekly schedules - and I'll simply stop water and let the roots suffocate and by doing so force the plant to use the reserves in it's leaves to sustain itself. This however, is completely unnecessary when I let a plant mature fully and harvest it when it decides it is ready on it's own...

Just a thought...



dank.Frank

There is that and also the difference in uptake depending on exudates and microbiological content of the rhizosphere

and fwiw

If I was in cali and growing outdoors and I wanted to extend senescence I wouldn't be fucking with the plant I would be fucking with the soil and there are several approaches

senescence starts because of the change in microbiology due to soil temperature changes

IMHO that is the nut you want to crack, if you keep that biology active the plants will continue to produce massive amount of buds even in low temps.

I grew in low temps for a long time, this is not theory, I can show you pictures where I slay biomass in regards to biomass to soil volume, organically in INSANE temperatures, both hot and cold.

I have an idea on how people could heat my beds for free in the fall. Geothermal/solar/wind hybrids could keep it close to free.

 

[Capt. Kush]

I need help guys. I want to grow in 10 gallon smart pots, how much sphagnum peat moss do i need to put in the smart pots, before adding perlite, earth worm castings, compost, and other amendments? 1 CF, perhaps?

 

[xmobotx]

"Need" ~anywhere from 33% to 60%

33% would look like 1:1:1 peat, ewc/compost,drainage ~pumice/perlite

I like 50% or more. Something like 25% drainage and 10% ewc and/or compost works pretty good

Easy would be 6 gal peat, 1 gal ewc & 3 gal whatever you like for drainage
Living soil likes crushed lava, pumice, rice hulls over perlite because perlite doesn't behave well long term for no-till

You may notice I use very little ewc. Which is because mine is hot from nutrient cycling. You may use more ~even as mulch for instance

 

[Capt. Kush]

"Need" ~anywhere from 33% to 60%

33% would look like 1:1:1 peat, ewc/compost,drainage ~pumice/perlite

I like 50% or more. Something like 25% drainage and 10% ewc and/or compost works pretty good

Easy would be 6 gal peat, 1 gal ewc & 3 gal whatever you like for drainage
Living soil likes crushed lava, pumice, rice hulls over perlite because perlite doesn't behave well long term for no-till

You may notice I use very little ewc. Which is because mine is hot from nutrient cycling. You may use more ~even as mulch for instance

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!
Do you know where I can buy crushed lava, pumice, or rice hulls? I've seen lava rock at home depot but don't know if that would work. Here it is http://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-0-5-cu-ft-Decorative-Stone-Red-Lava-Rock-440897/100427379

 

[xmobotx]

Yeah that's Scoria. It'll be a little chunky & a PITA to break up. Some drive their car over it. You can get it broken up at build a soil

 

[Weird]

http://www.kurzweilai.net/irst-deta...-nanobacteria-at-the-lower-size-limit-of-life

First detailed microscopy evidence of ‘nanobacteria’ at the lower size limit of life

Whose gonna be the first one on the micro micro herd tip

calls out to MM "I think were gonna need a 'bigger' microscope"

 

[Oti$]

Hello organic growers, this is my first time postingin your forum. I'm a coco grower, but I recently acquired a new space and I'm going to try my hand at organics. I've been researching a good bit. I've already been growing in beds (coco)at one location and thought I'd try mixing up a bed using coots mix. I'd like to be able to reuse/reammend the soil as it well be quite a pain to haul a 4x8 tray worth of soil out of a basement. My question is would this mix be a good start for what I'm trying to accomplish? If not, maybe someone could point me in the right direction. I will try to read as much as possible as not to pester you guys with questions that can be easily answered with a little reading. I'd just like to get the soil mixed and decomposing so I can get started as fast as possible. I really respect what you guys do and am excited to get an organic crop under my belt as I'm curious to compare the quality to what I gave been doing thepast few years. Thanks

 

[Microbeman]

http://www.kurzweilai.net/irst-deta...-nanobacteria-at-the-lower-size-limit-of-life

First detailed microscopy evidence of ‘nanobacteria’ at the lower size limit of life

Whose gonna be the first one on the micro micro herd tip

calls out to MM "I think were gonna need a 'bigger' microscope"

Actually one of the most (if not the most) advanced nano research facilities in the world is located in northern Alberta of all places. I contacted one of their scientist a few years back trying to pitch using nanotechnology to create cartilage, one of my fanatic dreams (fantasy goal). http://www.nint-innt.ca/

 

[milkyjoe]

Milky - my only concern is I know you follow (or work along the lines of) the same premises that BYF does.

If I'm not mistaken, you guys have been working to delay natural senescence by the foliar application of specific minerals for the purpose of increasing yield potentials...

Is it possible, that by delaying naturally triggered plant senescence you have also indirectly forced the plant to need more N to support the call for extended flower production? Could the plant not be sending chemical signals from the root zone that call for the microbe populations to continue supplying N - and thus the reason you have so much excess at the end of the cycle? (hopefully you are following my line of thinking)

Reading the conversation between yourself and Weird -to add my own anecdotal opinion, it has been my personal experience - at a certain point - it becomes completely irrelevant as to what remains in the soil because once the plant enters into senescence the plant naturally stops feeding from the root zone as it enters the end of it's life cycle...making it some what of a moot concern...

I mean, I know there are times where I want a plant to finish in a specific time frame based on my weekly schedules - and I'll simply stop water and let the roots suffocate and by doing so force the plant to use the reserves in it's leaves to sustain itself. This however, is completely unnecessary when I let a plant mature fully and harvest it when it decides it is ready on it's own...

Just a thought...



dank.Frank

.

Frank. At this point I think I am distracting from what people want to talk about in this thread. Time for me to just lurk and see if anything comes up I can use. I would be happy to discuss those things but maybe another thred is better, perhaps the aea thread if you are interested.

The basic point I was trying to make is this. My vermicast has a good deal of N, but it is virtually all organic N with very, very little of it in the nitrate form. This is exactly what I want to achieve in my soil. In that form the plant actually can pick and choose. That vermi also has a C:N ratio of 10:1...also similar to what I would like to achieve in my soil.

But during the grow that organic N is reduced (converted, oxidized, however you want to say that) to a lot of nitrate...NO3. In that form the plant can no longer pick and choose. The nitrate is going to get into the root by diffusion.

All I meant to do is ask if anyone else had seen this. Or if anyone knows how to prevent organic N from becoming nitrate...and I don't think that is easy given the level of microbe activity and the amount of O2 in light soils heavily amended with lots of drainage bits.

Anyways...not the thread for that. Sorry for the distraction.

 

[Lapides]

I like worms in my no-till continually making new and fresh vermicast directly where they need to be - at the bases of my plants. Maybe the worms can help with your nitrate problems. They seem to make things very simple in my world.

 

[xmobotx]

My castings are pretty "hot" too. Closer to 10% in the mix w/ ewc topdressing from time to time makes more sense w/ the stronger castings

 

[Capt. Kush]

4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)
Can someone tell me if I'm right...Does he mean 4 cups of glacial, 1 cup bentonite, 1 cup oyster shell, 1 cup basalt?