Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[ghostmade]

Heavy metals are in organics and in chems.its all about consecrations. Chems have there place as dose organics.i dont tend to cross the streams (yes,a ghost busters reference,Retro!i know).i like organics becuase its a low maintenance low cost (yeah i said it) and progressively gets better 9ver time with less imputs.
1 part peat 1 part organic matter (worm shit all the way up to elephant shit)(not claiming i use the latter)1 part aeration(perlite, yes i perlite). Minerals from difrent sorces and some goodies alfalfa and kelp.bam im chilling like Bob Dylan.

 

[Weird]

What bothers me most, however, is that both sides of the organic debate spend millions in press and advertising to attack each other instead of looking for a resolution. Organic supporters tend to vilify new technologies, while conventional supporters insist that chemicals and massive production monocultures are the only way to go. This simply strikes me as absurd. Synthetic doesn’t necessarily mean bad for the environment. Just look at technological advances in creating biodegradable products; sometimes, we can use our knowledge and intelligence to create things that are both useful, cheap (enough) and ecologically responsible, as crazy as that idea may sound.

I also firmly believe that increasing the chemicals used in agriculture to support insanely over-harvested monocultures will never lead to ecological improvement. In my mind, the ideal future will merge conventional and organic methods, using GMOs and/or other new technologies to reduce pesticide use while increasing the bioavailability of soils, crop yield, nutritional quality and biodiversity in agricultural lands. New technology isn’t the enemy of organic farming; it should be its strongest ally.

As far as I’m concerned, the biggest myth when it comes to organic farming is that you have to choose sides. Guess what? You don’t. You can appreciate the upsides of rotating crops and how GMOs might improve output and nutrition. You, the wise and intelligent consumer, don’t have to buy into either side’s propaganda and polarize to one end or another. You can, instead, be somewhere along the spectrum, and encourage both ends to listen up and work together to improve our global food resources and act sustainably.

So go create a transitional gardening forum where you hybridize synthetic and organic methods.

Some of us have been there, done that, and prefer different alternatives thus the title of the thread.

This is not a thread for the comparison or postulation of other techniques in comparison to living soil, it is about the application there of.

I don't troll you in your threads, would you like me to scrutinize your work and really tell you how I feel about it from my perspective?

Worms are my canary in the coal mine, they are a barometer of soil health, including anaerobic and toxic soil conditions.

I grow my plants to my satisfaction, I have a small portion of my work in my albums, you are welcome to critique my work and judge me based on it and please call me out for it, but do it elsewhere and stop detracting from the purpose of the thread

you need a bottle to make this happen, well god bless you then, for me knowledge,experience and an open mind bridged the gap.

 

[Mikell]

Since you looked into it...what are those 20 chemicals? I prefer minerally dense and no "cides" at all. I don't mind ammonium sulfate...but I don't want a single herbicide ever if I am eating it

Edit...I want Cu and S. They are essential elements for both plants and me. How is that an issue. What I don't want is shit I cannot pronounce

The issue is as he stated, over use of Cu and S fungicides. Massive run-off contamination is a real concern with large scale organic farming.

I generally don't agree with Fever, but industrial conventional agriculture and organic generally vary only on their list of inputs (think Earthbound farms, not the local hippies growing for the farmers market). Michael Pollan is an excellent read regardless of one's personal beliefs.

 

[milkyjoe]

Over use of anything causes runoff. Phosphate and nitrate would be the real problem...no? And organic soil can result in very high nitrate, it is not just conventional.

You want around 4 ppm Cu and maybe 75 ppm S in your soil.

 

[Weird]

Organic soil with too much nitrates is not a product of a healthy, naturally balanced soil ecosystem.

Inappropriate use of any methodology produces substandard results both in the target activity and the ecology it is taking place in.

Too much nitrogen isn't just a waste.

 

[milkyjoe]

If you are using 1/3 good vermicast check the nitrate level at the end of one grow.

 

[Weird]

nitrate level of what?

adding 1/3 vermiculite isn't natural or balanced is it?

Nitrogen .. now you see it

Now you don't

Plants are a sign of soil nitrification at as well as soil tests

The worms in my pots are vermiculture machines and big mike from AN doesn't get a cut every time they shit

My soil is no till recycled, I add some teas a couple tablespoons of plant meal top dresses.

 

[DrFever]

So go create a transitional gardening forum where you hybridize synthetic and organic methods.

Some of us have been there, done that, and prefer different alternatives thus the title of the thread.

This is not a thread for the comparison or postulation of other techniques in comparison to living soil, it is about the application there of.

I don't troll you in your threads, would you like me to scrutinize your work and really tell you how I feel about it from my perspective?

Worms are my canary in the coal mine, they are a barometer of soil health, including anaerobic and toxic soil conditions.

View Image


I grow my plants to my satisfaction, I have a small portion of my work in my albums, you are welcome to critique my work and judge me based on it and please call me out for it, but do it elsewhere and stop detracting from the purpose of the thread


View Image


you need a bottle to make this happen, well god bless you then, for me knowledge,experience and an open mind bridged the gap.

Everyone grows there plants to there capabilities whats so hard about living organic soil from start to finish and re using ????
its really elementary
you got 50 gallons of used organic soil you leach it ridding it of its salts then you get 50 gallons of compost screen it with 1/2 " screen mix it throughly add some man made products like Gypsum or dolomite lime which has been of course processed by man not natural .. add some slow released organic fertilizer again processed by man water mixture so its moist place in garbage bags or some container leave it for 2 weeks allowing micro life to grow through out the medium there recylced soil from start to finsh Elementary
Please note although dolomite lime is used to control ph its also fertilizer same applies for gypsum its a conditioner but also a fertilizer
But one must not forget there are Fluorides in gypsum
i am curious on the dangers of fluorides
this is just the start of it really if were suppose to go by the laws of nature why are we side stepping it by adding lime , gypsum into the equation shouldn't the organic matter ph level off naturally ??? then that would be true organic as mother nature has done for millions of years
So one has to really ask himself is it natural organic or some other name cause of course man has his fingers in it there fore has manipulated the the natural process

 

[Microbeman]

DrFever;

What you have stated concerning certified organics is not necessarily false. Certified organics is far separated from natural growing in living soil.

As a matter of fact (or primary speculation) there are many useful practices in living soil techniques which are not permitted in a certified organic garden. e.g. compost tea application.

The application of herbicides only relates to large scale organic factory farms (as you may have inferred). Why on earth would I require a herbicide in my 1/2 to 2 acre garden? Dandelions; morning glory?

What is wrong in thinking that chemical or soluble fertilizers, conventional or organic can be a workable solution is calculus and timing. It is critical, that accurate math is utilized to mix and apply these solutions correctly and that they are applied at exactly the correct time phase for the plant(s) being grown.

To do otherwise, creates pollution of soil, groundwater/streams or(and) plant tissue (as evidenced by storage of polonium 210 in glandular trichomes) plus it can result in the promotion of pathogens, requiring yet another chemical or so-called organic solution.

There are very few educated to the point of being trusted to calculate these formulations even to minimal adequacy, nevermind optimally. At one time I believed myself to be among those so educated, however boy was I wrong!

Do you possess this talent/education? How many farmers globally do you think can be trusted?

You think another solution may be to marry GMO technology with organics. Again, unfortunately due to the stock market and human greed this only applies to the use of massive factory farms. This promising technology has become obscured by moneyass obfuscators who pay unethical scientists to ignore or fix studies.

The real solution is the return to the backyard garden and small farm and provision of bounty to local neighbors. Will this happen widescale? Not likely. At least not until government has true leaders who give a damn about people.

Thankfully it is happening in small pockets throughout North America and I hope Europe where people are gathering to create community gardens and community supported farms (CSA). Don't worry the big corporations will try to interfere in this process if it gets too big.

 

[Weird]

im not remixing soil its no till.

I pull the old plant stalk, plant new one, and continue.

You are making assumptions that aren't even applicable.

 

[Microbeman]

Everyone grows there plants to there capabilities whats so hard about living organic soil from start to finish and re using ????
its really elementary
you got 50 gallons of used organic soil you leach it ridding it of its salts then you get 50 gallons of compost screen it with 1/2 " screen mix it throughly add some man made products like Gypsum or dolomite lime which has been of course processed by man not natural .. add some slow released organic fertilizer again processed by man water mixture so its moist place in garbage bags or some container leave it for 2 weeks allowing micro life to grow through out the medium there recylced soil from start to finsh Elementary
Please note although dolomite lime is used to control ph its also fertilizer same applies for gypsum its a conditioner but also a fertilizer
But one must not forget there are Fluorides in gypsum
i am curious on the dangers of fluorides
this is just the start of it really if were suppose to go by the laws of nature why are we side stepping it by adding lime , gypsum into the equation shouldn't the organic matter ph level off naturally ??? then that would be true organic as mother nature has done for millions of years
So one has to really ask himself is it natural organic or some other name cause of course man has his fingers in it there fore has manipulated the the natural process

I wrote what I did prior to reading this. This is simply ridiculous. BTW I do not use anything to regulate or influence pH. If you plan on discussing living soil please educate yourself a tiny bit first.

 

[Weird]

DrFever;

What you have stated concerning certified organics is not necessarily false. Certified organics is far separated from natural growing in living soil.

As a matter of fact (or primary speculation) there are many useful practices in living soil techniques which are not permitted in a certified organic garden. e.g. compost tea application.

The application of herbicides only relates to large scale organic factory farms (as you may have inferred). Why on earth would I require a herbicide in my 1/2 to 2 acre garden? Dandelions; morning glory?

What is wrong in thinking that chemical or soluble fertilizers, conventional or organic can be a workable solution is calculus and timing. It is critical, that accurate math is utilized to mix and apply these solutions correctly and that they are applied at exactly the correct time phase for the plant(s) being grown.

To do otherwise, creates pollution of soil, groundwater/streams or(and) plant tissue (as evidenced by storage of polonium 210 in glandular trichomes) plus it can result in the promotion of pathogens, requiring yet another chemical or so-called organic solution.

There are very few educated to the point of being trusted to calculate these formulations even to minimal adequacy, nevermind optimally. At one time I believed myself to be among those so educated, however boy was I wrong!

Do you possess this talent/education? How many farmers globally do you think can be trusted?

You think another solution may be to marry GMO technology with organics. Again, unfortunately due to the stock market and human greed this only applies to the use of massive factory farms. This promising technology has become obscured by moneyass obfuscators who pay unethical scientists to ignore or fix studies.

The real solution is the return to the backyard garden and small farm and provision of bounty to local neighbors. Will this happen widescale? Not likely. At least not until government has true leaders who give a damn about people.

Thankfully it is happening in small pockets throughout North America and I hope Europe where people are gathering to create community gardens and community supported farms (CSA). Don't worry the big corporations will try to interfere in this process if it gets too big.

Just to comment on the bold, http://www.verticalfarm.com/

simply to point out there is recognition of the problem along wiht proposed solutions
The Problem


By the year 2050, nearly 80% of the earth’s population will reside in urban centers. Applying the most conservative estimates to current demographic trends, the human population will increase by about 3 billion people during the interim. An estimated 109 hectares of new land (about 20% more land than is represented by the country of Brazil) will be needed to grow enough food to feed them, if traditional farming practices continue as they are practiced today. At present, throughout the world, over 80% of the land that is suitable for raising crops is in use (sources: FAO and NASA). Historically, some 15% of that has been laid waste by poor management practices. What can be done to avoid this impending disaster?


A Potential Solution: Farm Vertically

 

[DrFever]

Please don't think that i have came in here to troll this is a open forum discussion although i get the label of starting shit or what ever, Its far from the truth honestly i like debate i truly am a pessimist and that is good and bad
and i truly believe Organics is mis leading and one hell of a good sales gimmic
TBO there are truths on both sides of the fence
Microbman you mention herbicides for large scale operations this doesn't make sense , So you are saying cause this hobbiest is small time grow operation its ok to use chemical's in his organic based garden ????

 

[DrFever]

interesting you say that lets look at what most organic soils and how they are made please note the lime part Cheers doc so yes mam also manipulates
most of all recipes have lime / or Gypsum in the equation and what is it really used for other then to control ph
Organic substitute for Cornell Mix (large quantity)
1/2 cu. yd. Sphagnum peat or coir
1/2 cu. yd perlite
10 lbs. bonemeal
5 lbs. ground limestone
5 lbs. bloodmeal

Classic soil-based mix
1/3 mature compost or leaf mold, screened
1/3 garden topsoil
1/3 sharp sand

Note: This mix results in a potting soil that is heavier than modern peat mixes, but still has good drainage. Compost has been shown to promote a healthy soil mix that can reduce root diseases. Perlite can be used instead of sand. Organic fertilizer can be added to this base.

Prick-out mix for growing seedlings to transplant size
6 parts compost
3 parts soil
1-2 parts sand
1-2 parts aged manure
1 part peat moss, pre-wet and sifted
1-2 parts leaf mold, if available
1 6" pot bone meal

The following recipe is credited to Eliot Coleman.

Organic potting mix
1 part sphagnum peat or coir
1 part peat humus (short fiber)
1 part compost
1 part sharp sand (builder's)

to every 80 qts. of this add:

1 cup greensand
1 cup colloidal phosphate
1 1/2 to 2 cups crabmeal, or bloodmeal
1/2 cup lime

Natural organic soil takes many years to make

 

[Lapides]

I really can't believe this is still going on. GTFO, you aren't changing ANYONE'S mind here. And like others have said, you don't even have a working knowledge about what you're arguing about.

 

[milkyjoe]

I have measured nitrate levels of 800 ppm after one grow with the coot formula. That is the problem with actually measuring...what you think you know don't always work out that way.

I am all for organic...but that does not mean we shouldn't measure and improve.

Imo organic soil should not measure ovet 50 ppm nitrate

 

[Lapides]

To answer your question above, a lot of people use lime for Ca and Mg, not for pH.

 

[Microbeman]

Microbman you mention herbicides for large scale operations this doesn't make sense , So you are saying cause this hobbiest is small time grow operation its ok to use chemical's in his organic based garden ????

As I said please educate yourself a tiny bit, at least perhaps enough to read. You do know that herbicides are specific to plants correct? You maybe know that much?

Now hold on and concentrate really hard while you read what I wrote again....okay?

The application of herbicides only relates to large scale organic factory farms (as you may have inferred). Why on earth would I require a herbicide in my 1/2 to 2 acre garden? Dandelions; morning glory?

I know that for someone of your gargantuan IQ this may be too simplistic but allow me please to translate; If I am growing a small sized garden, I have no need to poison weeds because they are so few and so easy to pull or shade out.

You not understanding this speaks volumes of your gardening related knowledge and experience period.

 

[DrFever]

Micro for someone to come across like you just did to me sounds like i hit a nerve ??? no need to attack ???? the truth don't get to upset and hey heading out the the farm next week ( Calving season ) i show you 6000 acres and 3000 head including Calfs and in mid summer ill post pics of just under 2 3/4 ton of forage per acre so please refrain from the smart ass remarks there is no need for it

PS I will also make sure to post soil testing analysis how the pro's really do it

 

[xmobotx]

i welcome this discussion just so it remains civil

for one thing, there are many misunderstandings which remain perpetuated when discussing "organic" as a general category and/or mixing it w/ the label as applied to store bought foods or, FTM; when discussing specific techniques.

in this living soil thread, for example; bringing old cornell recipes in as a reference point for debate would mostly serve to set another example of what living soil is not. To me, {& I'm not certain what people mean when referencing "soup" method} cornell recipes and the like hearkens more to the soup methods {maybe some one could clarify what is meant by "soup"}

i suppose "cootz mix" represents more of a vanguard. still, there are those contributing who will use bone meal, dolo lime, et al while cootz avoids these whether it's slaughterhouse amendments or simply amendments which mess up soil chemistry for re-use. His choices are more like superfoods for the soil and SFW each bringing multiple super powers to the equation. zero of these choices are considered an "N-source" or "P source" as they are all complex additions.

this thread really represents that sort of mix and gas' mix {which is similar} along w/ the use of aloe, k-sil, and botanicals whether alfalfa tea for the soil or lavender tea for IPM

the k-sil is something of a sticking point since as a foliar it is organic approved but not as a soil additive. many recipes for seed-starting and cloning involve the k-sil & would not be certified ~is it really so that AACT would be a sticking point for organic certification?

organic container gardening? i wonder whether certification for those practices might be looming but AFAIK, one would have to be farming a piece of land for certification here