Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[milkyjoe]

And that is exactly my point...even without a so called "N" amendment one can still end up with very high nitrate that is certainly going to affect the plants health.

The crop will look fantastic, but it will be susceptible to pest and disease without the grower necessarily knowing it. Theoretically even with no N inputs if you overstimulate nitrogen fixing bacteria you can end up with high N.

I have gone 3 grows without adding a single N amendment, including compost, and my nitrate levels are still too high. Quite amazing what microbes are actually capable of.

 

[Microbeman]

Micro for someone to come across like you just did to me sounds like i hit a nerve ??? no need to attack ???? the truth don't get to upset and hey heading out the the farm next week ( Calving season ) i show you 6000 acres and 3000 head including Calfs and in mid summer ill post pics of just under 2 3/4 ton of forage per acre so please refrain from the smart ass remarks there is no need for it

PS I will also make sure to post soil testing analysis how the pro's really do it

Good evasion of your illustrated inability to read. Why do you consider what I wrote any more of an attack than your passive aggressive statement with overuse of the eroteme? What you say about hitting a nerve makes zero sense, since all I did was point out that you completely misread what I wrote.

Apologies?

If you use anything except HPLC for your soil tests (IMO) you are wasting your money. I also lived in and cut my teeth in ranching country. Its where I learned how not to grow hay from most of my neighbors.

Where do they have calving season this late? It is usually over by the end of February where I'm from.
http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_genetics_match_game I see here there is a variance.

 

[dank.frank]

Micro for someone to come across like you just did to me sounds like i hit a nerve ??? no need to attack ???? the truth don't get to upset and hey heading out the the farm next week ( Calving season ) i show you 6000 acres and 3000 head including Calfs and in mid summer ill post pics of just under 2 3/4 ton of forage per acre so please refrain from the smart ass remarks there is no need for it

PS I will also make sure to post soil testing analysis how the pro's really do it

I stepped out of the conversation because I saw the direction it was heading...there is no point in having a debate when someones mind is made up and already fixed on an definitive position.

That aside, MM's post took on a new tone because you didn't read what he said...and if you did, you didn't do so with much care - because this statement:

So you are saying cause this hobbiest is small time grow operation its ok to use chemical's in his organic based garden ????

Was literally, the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he said.

No one likes to have to repeat themselves in real life - let alone online where the words are in text, can be re-read and studied before replied to.

I've learned in my own interactions on forums - that it is very easy to misconstrue the language or intent or the very words themselves if you are intent on proving your own point of view.

Stay open minded and enter into conversations with the perspective of a student hoping to learn something new rather than from the perspective of the teacher looking to educate.

This thread, is an example of everyone trying to learn from one another through a collection of individual contributions.



dank.Frank

 

[Microbeman]

Milk; Just so you know, (from my take) it is not nitrogen fixing bacteria which are predominantly responsible for nutrient cycling and N provision in the microbial nutrient loop. This is an error made by many.

It is actually more the bacteria/archaea consumed by protozoa and nematodes which provide microbial derived plant available nutrients. Typically these would only be in solution for brief phases when stimulus dictates.

Also typically these are not easily detected by soil tests using weak acids (Melich, etc.) I know I can take flak for this statement because there are other opinions.

 

[Microbeman]

Frank; You are right. It brought out the sarcastic evil side of me. Sorry.

 

[Dreambolic]

Help help help help plz help

Help help help help plz help

Can any one help. I have 1 week old seedling auto flower Og kush. It's stretching and now is on a support of a wood stick cuz it was drooling on the ground when I checked it.. I don't know what it's the problem.. Though the plant looks healthy leaves r perfect... Is it the light problem or water problem.. I am growing them in a pot on my terrace.. In natural sunlight.. Right now they r in shade since the time they have popped out of the soil they have not had direct sunlight on them.. And my question is when can I give them dirct sunlight as they r one week old only.... Please help me on this.. This IE my second grow and m in india.. Plz Pls plz help

 

[Microbeman]

~is it really so that AACT would be a sticking point for organic certification?

X: Yes unfortunately so. This arose from some (IMO) flawed studies where ACT was inoculated with e-coli and it was 'proven' that e-coli will grow in ACT if fed molasses. This to me is akin to seeding a bunch of morning glory into your yard and fertilizing it and being astounded that it grows.

Anyway because of these findings (at least in part) the 90 day and 120 day rules were implemented with discretion given to the certifying body to shorten or lengthen the period based on quality (measured how I do not know) [applied 90:120 days before harvest]

I have said before we withdrew from certification (around 1998) when they said we could not harrow our fields which had horses, elk and deer over winter grazing on them and still harvest the medicinal herbs for certified market.

This is when we began calling our method natural and our sales actually increased.

 

[Microbeman]

Can any one help. I have 1 week old seedling auto flower Og kush. It's stretching and now is on a support of a wood stick cuz it was drooling on the ground when I checked it.. I don't know what it's the problem.. Though the plant looks healthy leaves r perfect... Is it the light problem or water problem.. I am growing them in a pot on my terrace.. In natural sunlight.. Right now they r in shade since the time they have popped out of the soil they have not had direct sunlight on them.. And my question is when can I give them dirct sunlight as they r one week old only.... Please help me on this.. This IE my second grow and m in india.. Plz Pls plz help

To me it sounds like your plant wants light.

They will do best with some constant full day light. If the window sill is the only place then rotate the plant regularly.

If you are careful, you can transplant it into deeper soil so the soil extends up the stem. New roots will grow from the stem.

Don't do this unless you really understand what I mean.

 

[milkyjoe]

Milk; Just so you know, (from my take) it is not nitrogen fixing bacteria which are predominantly responsible for nutrient cycling and N provision in the microbial nutrient loop. This is an error made by many.

It is actually more the bacteria/archaea consumed by protozoa and nematodes which provide microbial derived plant available nutrients. Typically these would only be in solution for brief phases when stimulus dictates.

Also typically these are not easily detected by soil tests using weak acids (Melich, etc.) I know I can take flak for this statement because there are other opinions.

I hear you...and I repect you. But N has to come from somewhere. Basically we aretalking about high N bacteria getting munched down by lower N organisms. That difference is what is available as waste to the plant.

But the N for the bacteria has to come from somewhere. Compost, other inputs...for sure. But there is a lot of N...like 79%...in the atmosphere. Surely some mechanism (methinks microbes) taps into that.

So yes...totally agree with you on the second half of your argument...it is that cycling that makes N plant available. But I wonder about limiting my thinking as to where the N comes from on the front end. No question you can supply it...but do you have to

 

[Weird]

I hear you...and I repect you. But N has to come from somewhere. Basically we aretalking about high N bacteria getting munched down by lower N organisms. That difference is what is available as waste to the plant.

But the N for the bacteria has to come from somewhere. Compost, other inputs...for sure. But there is a lot of N...like 79%...in the atmosphere. Surely some mechanism (methinks microbes) taps into that.

So yes...totally agree with you on the second half of your argument...it is that cycling that makes N plant available. But I wonder about limiting my thinking as to where the N comes from on the front end. No question you can supply it...but do you have to

excess N is either there already because the soil is imbalanced or someone is adding it to make the soil imbalanced

LOS is balanced, that is the point. Nitrification of any type and your LOS isn't the same, if it is "living" at all anymore.

 

[Weird]

I have measured nitrate levels of 800 ppm after one grow with the coot formula. That is the problem with actually measuring...what you think you know don't always work out that way.

I am all for organic...but that does not mean we shouldn't measure and improve.

Imo organic soil should not measure ovet 50 ppm nitrate

How high was the nitrogen content of the plant at harvest? if you didn't measure it, was the plant overly green? were you dissatisfied that you made that measurement of runoff?

Not all nitrogen in soil is available to plants, most esp in natural systems

 

[Weird]

i welcome this discussion just so it remains civil

for one thing, there are many misunderstandings which remain perpetuated when discussing "organic" as a general category and/or mixing it w/ the label as applied to store bought foods or, FTM; when discussing specific techniques.

in this living soil thread, for example; bringing old cornell recipes in as a reference point for debate would mostly serve to set another example of what living soil is not. To me, {& I'm not certain what people mean when referencing "soup" method} cornell recipes and the like hearkens more to the soup methods {maybe some one could clarify what is meant by "soup"}

i suppose "cootz mix" represents more of a vanguard. still, there are those contributing who will use bone meal, dolo lime, et al while cootz avoids these whether it's slaughterhouse amendments or simply amendments which mess up soil chemistry for re-use. His choices are more like superfoods for the soil and SFW each bringing multiple super powers to the equation. zero of these choices are considered an "N-source" or "P source" as they are all complex additions.

this thread really represents that sort of mix and gas' mix {which is similar} along w/ the use of aloe, k-sil, and botanicals whether alfalfa tea for the soil or lavender tea for IPM

the k-sil is something of a sticking point since as a foliar it is organic approved but not as a soil additive. many recipes for seed-starting and cloning involve the k-sil & would not be certified ~is it really so that AACT would be a sticking point for organic certification?

organic container gardening? i wonder whether certification for those practices might be looming but AFAIK, one would have to be farming a piece of land for certification here

disappointing as hes a known organics troll, he has had threads closed because they were baited to draw people into an organics conversation only to argue against it.

its ok too many personal agendas have undermined the quality of conversation here and elsewhere, my expectations are not high nor do I have the intensive needs that others do.

 

[milkyjoe]

excess N is either there already because the soil is imbalanced or someone is adding it to make the soil imbalanced

LOS is balanced, that is the point. Nitrification of any type and your LOS isn't the same, if it is "living" at all anymore.

That is the theory...and maybe you are right. But send in a sample and see for yourself. It is not what I see. And no question one data point (mine) could be wrong. I would love to see other data points

 

[Weird]

http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G9186

Manure contains both organic nitrogen and mineral forms of nitrogen. The organic nitrogen is an integral component of cells in organic material in the manure. Plants cannot directly use organic nitrogen. Instead, plants rely on microbes in the soil to break down the organic nitrogen and release it into the soil in a mineral form plants can use. This process is called mineralization. One challenge of using manure as a fertilizer is predicting the amount of organic nitrogen that will be released to soil as mineral nitrogen and the rate it will be released.

The balance of the natural system is not theory, its nature

 

[milkyjoe]

And I cannot get tissue analysis at harvest. They told me stop at the point the smell became unmistakeable. Soil was at 800...plant???

I was spraying the fuck out of it with Mg and Mo to try to reduce nitrate to protein. Smoking results wete good...but that is totally subjective and proves nothing

 

[Weird]

either does the fact that you can't acknowledge whether the nitrogen you measured was even available to the plant

 

[Weird]

And I cannot get tissue analysis at harvest. They told me stop at the point the smell became unmistakeable. Soil was at 800...plant???

I was spraying the fuck out of it with Mg and Mo to try to reduce nitrate to protein. Smoking results wete good...but that is totally subjective and proves nothing

what smell told you it was time to harvest?

How can you tell if you reduced nitrogen to protein if your not doing tissue samples? anecdotal evidence?

Did you do a side by side since your evidence was only anecdotal?

And you never mentioned how green they are. You can see my plants aren't taking up nitrogen at harvest because they are feeding off of themselves.

Did you see that in your attempts because I do in mine, if I didn't I might have the same concerns.

 

[milkyjoe]

Nitrate is an ion. It is totally plant available. Did not even know that was a question...sorry.

I would love high organic N and low nitrate. Just have not figured out how to assure that yet. In fact the vermicast I use had that. It is only when the plant is introduced that it changes...hence my end of one grow statement

Please do get a nitrate test. I would love to see proof and you may well have it figured out

 

[Microbeman]

I hear you...and I repect you. But N has to come from somewhere. Basically we aretalking about high N bacteria getting munched down by lower N organisms. That difference is what is available as waste to the plant.

But the N for the bacteria has to come from somewhere. Compost, other inputs...for sure. But there is a lot of N...like 79%...in the atmosphere. Surely some mechanism (methinks microbes) taps into that.

So yes...totally agree with you on the second half of your argument...it is that cycling that makes N plant available. But I wonder about limiting my thinking as to where the N comes from on the front end. No question you can supply it...but do you have to

I think you misunderstood...oh well...time to go

 

[milkyjoe]

what smell told you it was time to harvest?

How can you tell if you reduced nitrogen to protein if your not doing tissue samples? anecdotal evidence?

Did you do a side by side since your evidence was only anecdotal?

And you never mentioned how green they are. You can see my plants aren't taking up nitrogen at harvest because they are feeding off of themselves.

Did you see that in your attempts because I do in mine, if I didn't I might have the same concerns.

I am not communicating well. I get tissue analysis...but beyond a certain smell point they will not do it. Legality question. Nothing to do with smell and when to harvest.

I do not know protein to nitrate at harvest because of that...the point I was failing to make.

My plants are greener than yours at the end but fading some. More to do with base cations in my experience...but that is a different argument

I do not know for a fact. I admit that. But I am looking for evidence. Shouldnt we all be