Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[rasputin]

I actually went to another thread to ask and to suggest that I have not read or shouldn't ask questions I could look up is bullshit! Then what is the point of this? Any question can be easily looked up.

Never suggested you didn't read nor did I suggest you shouldn't ask questions. That's just silly. What I did suggest was that people shouldn't complain or be critical of others for posting after them without addressing their own post. It happens, tangents pop up, threads get side tracked, etc.

Re-stating the question, quoting the post or starting a new thread works much better than spot lighting the side tracking or tangents that have caused your question to go unanswered in the first place. It tends to feed on itself and the thread gets further side tracked. Vicious cycle.

Food for thought.

Good luck with your cover crop.

the clover that survives doesn't fade like the main plant. i don't know is this because of top soil nitrogen competition between plants, nitrogen fixing of clover(did'nt inoculate them with the bacteria) or senescence or some combination, but it is something i noticed.

Nice post, Non. Senescence gets my vote. Annuals are born to die. No flushing or 'starving' necessary.

I dont worry much if my flax makes it to maturity. If it thrives its chopped and decomposes, if it doesn't it decomposes and becomes part of the mulch anyway.

Agreed. Do you run no-till containers or are you re-mixing and amending after each round?

 

[xmobotx]

the mention of flax for some convoluted reasons reminded me of mustard ~an excellent choice for companion since it suppresses the bad nematodes & bad soil-borne fungus

i would imagine mustard might be good close to the perimeter & planted after the primary ~it also suppresses other plant growth by competition

TheFarm's post above is good

 

[non]

for outdoor?

 

[xmobotx]

well, outdoor you could utilize it for sure & it would be a good idea. indoor would require some management ~for the soil fumigant effect it's typically mowed as it {the mustard} flowers ~chop-n-drop! the mustards i've grown were comparably sized to my flaxes

 

[Microbeman]

if you're in a no-till container and have any sort of downtime between plantings. Cover crops keep the wheel in spin, so to speak.

having something growing between cycles keeps soil biology alive & is especially helpful for mycorrhizae

These are the main reason IMO for keeping a living mulch but if you get to the point where your cover plants are needing too much light and nutrient and care to keep from becoming diseased, then it is counter-productive.

There is scientific evidence supporting long held hypotheses by your's truly (and other soil scientists) of a nutrient exchange network which occurs between plants of varying and similar species, via a mycelial (hyphal) network from primarily mycorrhizal fungi.

It stands to reason that clover and other trefoil plant types (& flax in high light/outdoors) would be players associated with cannabis, particularly in the exchange of carbon for nitrogen.

We have used crimson clover as a mulch for corn but we did knock it down prior to planting. We got an excellent crop from that and ACT alone.

Sorry; I would have attached the full paper except for the 1MB restriction in this forum.

Mycorrhizal Networks: Common Goods of Plants Shared
under Unequal Terms of Trade

Florian Walder, Helge Niemann, Mathimaran Natarajan, Moritz F. Lehmann,
Thomas Boller, and Andres Wiemken*

Botanical Institute (F.W., M.N., T.B., A.W.) and Institute for Environmental Geoscience (H.N., M.F.L.),
University of Basel, 4056 Basel, Switzerland

DISCUSSION

Uneven Terms of Trade in a CMN
MM's clarification (common mycorrhizal networks)

Our results (for a graphical synopsis, see Fig. 6)
emphasize the importance of the terms of trade within
a CMN as a driver for the coexistence of mycorrhizal
plants in ecosystems. In our mixed-culture experiments,
sorghum, as the plant with the higher biomass,
consistently provided the bulk of carbon to both tested
fungal partners, investing at least twice as much into the
CMN as flax. However, the nutritional benefit to
the two host plants strongly depended on the fungus
involved: in the case of G. intraradices, flax might be
viewed as a “cheater” on sorghum, acquiring 80% to
90% of the total labeled nitrogen and phosphorus
provided by the CMN, whereas the acquisition of labeled
nitrogen and phosphorus was more balanced in
the case of G. mosseae (Fig. 6). Obviously, in our experiments,
carbon investment and nutritional benefit
were not tightly linked. This stands in contrast to recent
findings where the resource exchange in the
symbiosis of plants with AMF appeared to rely on
reciprocal “fair trade” (Javot et al., 2007; Pietikainen
and Kytoviita, 2007; Kiers et al., 2011; Fellbaum et al.,
2012). At least with lower levels of root colonization,
sorghum did express a negative response to the diminished
nutritional benefit in mixed culture with flax,
so that a certain reciprocity of investment and nutritional
benefit also became apparent in our system. It
has been proposed that the symbiosis between plants
and AMF is based on the exchange of “luxury goods”
(Kiers and van der Heijden, 2006). Hence, CMNs can
exist without causing significant additional costs to
either partner, especially when the cost of carbon is
negligible for the main carbon donor. This appeared to
be the case for sorghum, which dominated (approximately
60% by biomass weight) in our mixed cultures,
or more obviously, for large trees supporting small
mycoheterotrophic plants (Courty et al., 2011).
In natural plant communities, the demand for “AMF
services” such as soil nutrient acquisition, and, vice
versa, the availability of luxury goods such as a surplus
of carbon, are expected to dynamically change for
the different plants, depending on their strategies to
respond to environmental cues and their specific lifehistory
traits with consecutive phases of vegetative
growth, maturation, senescence, etc. Thus, CMNs
supposedly function as dynamic “marketplaces” in
biodiverse ecosystems, where the symbionts involved
and apparently organized in networks of plant-AMF
assemblages (Montesinos-Navarro et al., 2012) can offer
luxury goods in exchange for more limited resources.

As a consequence, these trades can only
weakly be reciprocal, dependent on transient sink
strengths and the efficiency of exchanges at the various
symbiotic interfaces, which can differ for different
plant-fungus combinations (Klironomos, 2003; Helgason
et al., 2007). This is evident in our mixed cultures, where
sorghum, in return for a similar expenditure of carbon,
received much more phosphorus from G. mosseae than
from G. intraradices, whereas for flax it was the inverse.

This difference in functional compatibility between host
plants and fungal partners was also displayed in the
monocultures, where sorghum acquired more phosphorus
from G. mosseae than from G. intraradices
whereas flax acquired marginally more phosphorus
from G. intraradices. With regard to our findings with the
mixed cultures, it would be challenging to monitor the
trading of the two plants in the CMN over their whole
life cycle and/or under changing sink-source relationships,
elicited for instance by a change of the light regimes
or by leaf clipping. To this end, the d 13C values of
the respired CO2 in the hyphal compartment could be
monitored.

We still lack a detailed understanding of what exactly
controls the observed asymmetry in carbon investment
and the return of nutrients in the investigated mycorrhizal
symbioses. It is likely, however, that the regulation
of fungal and plant transporters at the interface
between the two organisms plays a role (Parniske, 2008;
Smith and Smith, 2011). With respect to phosphate
transfer from the fungus to the plant, the plant’s AMFinducible
phosphate transporters appear to be crucial
(Javot et al., 2007).Vice versa, with respect to carbon
transfer from the plant to the fungus, the symbiosisinduced
sugar transporter of Glomus species might be of
similar importance (Helber et al., 2011).

Sharing Luxury Goods Maximizes Productivity

Our experimental data demonstrate that an unbalanced
use of the CMN not only can increase the
growth of an individual plant such as flax but also the
overall productivity of our two-plant model ecosystem
by sharing the benefit of a luxury good (carbon provided
by sorghum) between sorghum and flax (Kiers
and van der Heijden, 2006). There are other possibilities
for plants of different functional groups to jointly
profit from the CMN as a common good (e.g. by taking
advantage of the proficiency of legumes to fix nitrogen
in symbiosis with rhizobia [Jalonen et al., 2009] or
the capacity to lift water by deep rooting [Egerton-
Warburton et al., 2007]). By the complementary use of
different resources in biodiverse ecosystems, plants
may cooperatively maintain CMNs without causing
exorbitant costs to any of the partners joined in the
network. This may explain how the presence of AMF
promotes the productivity and diversity of plant
communities (van der Heijden et al., 1998).

 

[Microbeman]

Dr Fever; That was big of you. Thanks.

 

[il19z8rn4li1]

Ran outta stuff to read from my books that I have, they didnt
really have any interesting recommendations for new books or authors to read up
on.

SO...

Lol Came over to the good old ICMAG, my original home that created my
passion for Biology.

Now, im going through this ENTIRE THREAD, meaning the 530 some page one
along with this new one that has been continued


Im copying all of the great posts that link to PDFs, bookmarking great links
of interest and then even screen shooting some of the more meaty posts made
by some of the main "gurus" of this thread, specifically...
-ClackaCootz
-Gascanastan
-Microbeman


I've been interested in having a nice working understanding of the BIO CHEMICAL
reactions within the soil and what exactly occurs between specific elements and
molecules, etc...etc..

Let me tell you...

At page 300 of the original thread, I have A SHIT TON of reading now
PLENTY to catch up on and exactly the kinda reading I have been pursuing.
Reading EVERY SINGLE post, should be finished with this thread in another week lol

Aside from all of the FREE PDFs and FREE LITERATURE thats linked to sites,
I have "wish listed" about 5-6 of actual TECHNICAL Biology books
that are more what Im looking for, scholarly level/post-pregrade/technical laymen. lol
Looking at the books now in my amazon account, 800 tickets for 5-6 books
Not bad to me if you ask me, seeing as all the FREE PDFs and Bookmarked Links
of text are probably equal to the price of those books in information

if all else, it will lead me to new literature to learn and grow

 

[milkyjoe]

It stands to reason that clover and other trefoil plant types (& flax in high light/outdoors) would be players associated with cannabis, particularly in the exchange of carbon for nitrogen.
quote]

So if I have a continuously running grow with enough light to keep clover alive and healthy are you saying I could use clover as a companion to fix N?

Would I need to replace C over time in that scenario? Or would I cycle enough C with microbe life?

And if I do have to replace C over time is that an advantage over replacing N over time? Obviously I am eventually going to have to replace minerals...easy enough to include N or C or both when I do that.

I have often wondered if one is growing in small enough pots if it would not be an advantage to cycle pots between grows and do a cover crop. Obviously one would need to take the pots outside and not waste electricity...but if you were in a climate where that would work???

 

[il19z8rn4li1]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5523361&postcount=5194


that mention of the lactobacillus bacteria made me think of yogurt...

I make my own yogurt, and anyone that LOVES yogurt and eats it regularly
should make their own also... its super easy and cheap.

BUT... this bamboo reference has me thinking... because I have been interested in making
my own yogurt culture for shits and giggles..

currently just using fresh store bought Organic yogurt, just the SINGLE SERVING
size... adding that to my gallon of heated milk, and that gives me some colonies, around 6-9 i believe...

BUT 300+ !!!! thats intense and im wondering if can make yogurt with these if one is
able to isolate MAINLY the lactos....??? @Microbeman might have more insight on this lol

I know Keifer has like 20-30 strains of bacteria in it, and it is much better for you
then yogurt, might start making my own keifer too..



Kinda off topic... excuse me lol

 

[CannaBrix]

Topic for discussion:

Back to potting mixes,

What would the benefits and drawbacks of adding mineral soil to peat based container mixes?

I know that peat DOES eventually break down, so would it be better to start with a mineral soil (clay/loam/sand) instead of peat moss?

Just the though of recycling soil that can theoretically only be recycled so many times, it seems using a mineral soil would be better.

Anybody got input here?

 

[xmobotx]

in containers, straight mineral soil compresses & drainage becomes a problem. perhaps that can be addressed by drainage amendments? I have seen gardeners use mineral soil in very large containers outdoors. ~this would be landscape mix by the yard or garden soil of known quality

the discussion which predicates this thread {and the "ROLS/LOS concept} started based on adding some mineral soil to your peat mix. 10% is enough for that & the idea is getting natural biology from your region in your containers

 

[milkyjoe]

The way I see it:

There are 3 problems with soil...1) physical weight, generally 3x as heavy as peat/compost/perlite...so harder to handle 2) generally lower organic...ok not generally always lower organic matter, less carbon means you cannot hold onto as much n so you need bigger containers or to feed n 3) unless you pay real attention to the Ca:Mg ratio you can really have bad drainage.

Having said that my outdoor mix is 50% top soil (I hunted a long time for the right stuff), 25% peat (to add the carbon the soil was lacking and jack up the cec) and 25% 1/2 inch basalt to fix drainage problems and provide a slow release mineral source over time.

 

[betshtick]

Topic for discussion:

Back to potting mixes,

What would the benefits and drawbacks of adding mineral soil to peat based container mixes?

I know that peat DOES eventually break down, so would it be better to start with a mineral soil (clay/loam/sand) instead of peat moss?

Just the though of recycling soil that can theoretically only be recycled so many times, it seems using a mineral soil would be better.

Anybody got input here?

Well what happens when peat or coco breaks down? It basically becomes compost, correct? So you should just be able to add more I'd think.

 

[redneck shogun]

Well what happens when peat or coco breaks down? It basically becomes compost, correct? So you should just be able to add more I'd think.

Thats what I do, just replenish your recycled soil with fresh peat and I add pumice for drainage.

 

[Art_of_Soil]

its been awhile since anyone posted on here, i know its not that long but figured maybe this was a everyday type of thread anyway.

Im in the process of building another soil mix i have everything needed for the original mix posted by Gascanastan ( awesome name btw) who is obviously a legend. I am missing screened clay or bentonite and leaf litter.

Any substitutes ? can they simply be left out ? please help with advice friendly activist/growers.

 

[xmobotx]

you don't need the clay or bentonite. something like the 'local soil screened for this' is fine

leaf litter is humus source. EWC and or compost {especially vermicompost} serves the same purpose

 

[Weird]

LOScrog

 

[milkyjoe]

Damn weird...that is a for real nice room. Well done

 

[Lapides]

My beds have live worms in them now. I think they may be helping with a lot of things being discussed in this thread lately.

 

[Siskiyou]

I have made a point of having live worms in my soil mix for several years now, after noticing that plants with worms stay healthier. The first time this became abundantly clear was with a couple of plants that were left too long in 1 gallon containers. They were identical healthy clones when transplanted, but one stayed healthy while the other eventually began to decline, showing a broad range of deficiencies. The soil came from the same batch, so I was a bit puzzled until I transplanted them and saw that by luck of the draw, one plant had several earthworms in its pot and the other had none. The plant with earthworms had tunnels all throughout her soil and fresh castings visible on the soil and in the saucer beneath the pot, even. The plant with worms was, obviously much healthier. Since then, I have always made sure to have lots of live worms in my mix. My herb gets better and better.

Lapides knows.

worms...worms...worms...