LED and BUD QUALITY

[zachrockbadenof]

As I go back in time here in the GSC thread as example, you see crosses of ordinary people turning out way better than most breeders seeds out there, which only proves the more easy to believe conspiracy that they are all in it for the quick cash, who would've thought ..

the word 'breeders' is a word that should rarely be used... its like in sports, when they say joe or willie are 'great' players... no.... you can say they are good, or in some cases very good players... but great... a great player is a MJ , or a wilt, or a kareem in basketball, or a hank or mays or a ruth in baseball...

there r very few 'breeders'... my opinion... and u know hat they say about opinions...

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

They tend to vary
But you are right.
I just think today seed makers (made you happy now ah Zach ) focus on so much other things... Its not clear what are they doing to the simple man anymore..
The simple man at the end want to smoke the product, do you care if you got 70g instead of 100 if the 100g sucks ?

I see seed makers on instagram picking selections based on yield, structure, nose.. wtf.. bro if this shit don't smoke like rocket fuel who cares about all that ??
Do people care how someone grows the corn that end up as their whisky ? No, the end consumer (us in the same case) just want a good final product, which is the fem, and her smoke, that's it.

I'm gonna start soon my own breeding program, just to see if I can do better than those 100$+ packs.
To me it's all about selection and time, which don't make money in most cases, so you know most will avoid it.

Edit -in this times and gene pools, as my dad used to say, sometimes you need luck more than skill

 

[Ca++]

if you hold the right genetics in your hand, even In the worst environment it will be a good smoke

I realise your post is tainted by the desire to sell seeds, but this isn't making your standards look very high.

You can't play like a grand-master, without all the chess pieces. Every one of them makes a difference. I have grown some really nice indoor, from seeds found in brown weed. Even a pawn can become a queen, if the game goes well.

There is good sentiment coming through in the recent posts, regarding breeders vs nobodies. It's quite possible to get hooked up with some hemp seeds, or diseased cuts, if you don't do your homework. I think I have only worked about half dozen seedbanks through choice. Maybe half dozen more through freebies. These days I ask not to be sent any. I don't have time for anything not backed by independant grow diaries. From breeders with long standing history. Through fast moving supply lines. Where it all starts though, is speed/size/strength related.

That bean choice is really just one piece of the game though. It's an important one, like the king. Which can move in any direction, but needs looking after properly, or it's game over.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

I realise your post is tainted by the desire to sell seeds, but this isn't making your standards look very high.

You can't play like a grand-master, without all the chess pieces. Every one of them makes a difference. I have grown some really nice indoor, from seeds found in brown weed. Even a pawn can become a queen, if the game goes well.

There is good sentiment coming through in the recent posts, regarding breeders vs nobodies. It's quite possible to get hooked up with some hemp seeds, or diseased cuts, if you don't do your homework. I think I have only worked about half dozen seedbanks through choice. Maybe half dozen more through freebies. These days I ask not to be sent any. I don't have time for anything not backed by independant grow diaries. From breeders with long standing history. Through fast moving supply lines. Where it all starts though, is speed/size/strength related.

That bean choice is really just one piece of the game though. It's an important one, like the king. Which can move in any direction, but needs looking after properly, or it's game over.

I'm sorry I cant understand your comments my friend, english is not my first language.

 

[Ca++]

Still running with 13.5/10.5 day1, 12/12 day30, day 70 13/11.

32.5w per sqft at half day mark, or 80% power.

Meaning i set my hydrox pro controller to start day at 10%, within the first 30min sunrise the controller will ramp up to 40% power. At peak growth stage, from that 40% power, the controller will raise gradually to 80% power till the halfway mark of the days light period. A solar noon.

Then the 2nd half of day, over the remaining hours, the controller will gradually ramps down to 60%, 30mins before lights off. The last 30min sunset is a quicker drop off till lights go off. Mimicking some sort of sun schedule with a solar noon etc.



Not sure how i would calculate the actual variable of power consumption throughout.

62% on average. Or 24w per foot, of the 39 available.

That is remarkably low, and the pics are certainly healthy enough for me to be doing the maths.

I'm actually running the very same, at about 2.5 weeks. Feeding bottle strength, the runoff from the coco is about 10% lower EC than they are fed, and the runoff quite large, which should favour a reading more like the EC given. Yet.. 10% lower. Plus I'm using calmag on top. Taking my bloom N up about 35%, to equal that of my grow.
They are stuffing the lot, the greedy b'stards. It's not even hot in there, and perhaps just 450ppfd. Which would be 20mol in dli terms.

I like your first and last pics, but I don't think I can stay at 20dli. What I can see though, is the feed relationship, when people do crank that up to 40dli, without any real heat increase, to get them picking up more fluid.

I'm actually running this way to gather some new data. I'm not sure, but think my need for P isn't increased with higher light. Leaving it at toxic levels, when I do crank up the EC. The P just hangs about in the pots, and the odd hair can be brown at 24 days. It's somewhat linked to hard dry backs, as I'm hand watering once a day.

Your plants look they they are holding up some big buds. Are you not tempted to turn up the wick, in the later weeks?


Just my working out, for review:
30 mins averaging 25%
Average 60% for the next 5.5 hours.
Average 70% for the next 5.5 hours
30 mins of 30% if the lights drop to nothing.

So that's 11 hours of 65% and one of 27.5%
11 x 65 add 27.5 and divide by 12..

 

[zachrockbadenof]

I just think today seed makers (made you happy now ah Zach )

u made my day.... thanks...

 

[gmanwho]

62% on average. Or 24w per foot, of the 39 available.

That is remarkably low, and the pics are certainly healthy enough for me to be doing the maths.

I'm actually running the very same, at about 2.5 weeks. Feeding bottle strength, the runoff from the coco is about 10% lower EC than they are fed, and the runoff quite large, which should favour a reading more like the EC given. Yet.. 10% lower. Plus I'm using calmag on top. Taking my bloom N up about 35%, to equal that of my grow.
They are stuffing the lot, the greedy b'stards. It's not even hot in there, and perhaps just 450ppfd. Which would be 20mol in dli terms.

I like your first and last pics, but I don't think I can stay at 20dli. What I can see though, is the feed relationship, when people do crank that up to 40dli, without any real heat increase, to get them picking up more fluid.

I'm actually running this way to gather some new data. I'm not sure, but think my need for P isn't increased with higher light. Leaving it at toxic levels, when I do crank up the EC. The P just hangs about in the pots, and the odd hair can be brown at 24 days. It's somewhat linked to hard dry backs, as I'm hand watering once a day.

Your plants look they they are holding up some big buds. Are you not tempted to turn up the wick, in the later weeks?


Just my working out, for review:
30 mins averaging 25%
Average 60% for the next 5.5 hours.
Average 70% for the next 5.5 hours
30 mins of 30% if the lights drop to nothing.

So that's 11 hours of 65% and one of 27.5%
11 x 65 add 27.5 and divide by 12..

thanks for the number crunching. Ya i was rather happy and i know there's still room for improvment.

Im not sure what u mean by "turn up the wick in the later weeks"?

I do have blumat soaker hoses i need to setup this round. Ive read some good things about them. However, with my past coco experience's, thinking Im gonna set the blumats up at a lower wc% then often intended.

My intention is a "see saw" with the soil dry backs. Dial in the blumats for say a 25-30%wc.

Feed the beds with teas or water 2-7 times a week. then let all the beds dry down to that 25-30% wc mark. Only then will the blumats begin to take over and hold a set wc%. Then i will deliver the next water or feed event when everyone is ready.

I already know each bed will be drinking different. Air movement, different genetics and size of plants etc.. i could imagine theres gonna be multiple instances when the beds wc% will all be off from each other.

If i do my job, the Blumats will be setup as a failsafe to prevent an overdrying situation. And i will not water till everyone is ready again. the blumats will hold the fast drinkers from drying out. Preventing microbe and worm die off, preventing calcification or possible nutient bonding, limit spike in ec, etc.

And this should also prevent me from overwatering a bed that isnt ready yet. With some experience i should be able to learn trends, and not have any leftovers in the tea brewer.

these where thirsty girls this last round. when things where moving along they needed to be watered every day. 50-60gal of soil based medium per bed. Thou I do have like a 40% aeration mix of perlite an rice hull, but this high aeration mix was intended.

round 2 is planted and waiting for roots to search. hopefully another 7-10 days and should be back into flower mode.

 

[Ca++]

thanks for the number crunching. Ya i was rather happy and i know there's still room for improvment.

Im not sure what u mean by "turn up the wick in the later weeks"?

I do have blumat soaker hoses i need to setup this round. Ive read some good things about them. However, with my past coco experience's, thinking Im gonna set the blumats up at a lower wc% then often intended.

My intention is a "see saw" with the soil dry backs. Dial in the blumats for say a 25-30%wc.

Feed the beds with teas or water 2-7 times a week. then let all the beds dry down to that 25-30% wc mark. Only then will the blumats begin to take over and hold a set wc%. Then i will deliver the next water or feed event when everyone is ready.

I already know each bed will be drinking different. Air movement, different genetics and size of plants etc.. i could imagine theres gonna be multiple instances when the beds wc% will all be off from each other.

If i do my job, the Blumats will be setup as a failsafe to prevent an overdrying situation. And i will not water till everyone is ready again. the blumats will hold the fast drinkers from drying out. Preventing microbe and worm die off, preventing calcification or possible nutient bonding, limit spike in ec, etc.

And this should also prevent me from overwatering a bed that isnt ready yet. With some experience i should be able to learn trends, and not have any leftovers in the tea brewer.

these where thirsty girls this last round. when things where moving along they needed to be watered every day. 50-60gal of soil based medium per bed. Thou I do have like a 40% aeration mix of perlite an rice hull, but this high aeration mix was intended.

round 2 is planted and waiting for roots to search. hopefully another 7-10 days and should be back into flower mode.

That's interesting use of the carrots. I like that.

'turn up the wick' is a very old saying, meaning turn up the light, from the days of oil burners.
Giving my age away lol

Late for work..

 

[Rocket Soul]

thanks for the number crunching. Ya i was rather happy and i know there's still room for improvment.

Im not sure what u mean by "turn up the wick in the later weeks"?

I do have blumat soaker hoses i need to setup this round. Ive read some good things about them. However, with my past coco experience's, thinking Im gonna set the blumats up at a lower wc% then often intended.

My intention is a "see saw" with the soil dry backs. Dial in the blumats for say a 25-30%wc.

Feed the beds with teas or water 2-7 times a week. then let all the beds dry down to that 25-30% wc mark. Only then will the blumats begin to take over and hold a set wc%. Then i will deliver the next water or feed event when everyone is ready.

I already know each bed will be drinking different. Air movement, different genetics and size of plants etc.. i could imagine theres gonna be multiple instances when the beds wc% will all be off from each other.

If i do my job, the Blumats will be setup as a failsafe to prevent an overdrying situation. And i will not water till everyone is ready again. the blumats will hold the fast drinkers from drying out. Preventing microbe and worm die off, preventing calcification or possible nutient bonding, limit spike in ec, etc.

And this should also prevent me from overwatering a bed that isnt ready yet. With some experience i should be able to learn trends, and not have any leftovers in the tea brewer.

these where thirsty girls this last round. when things where moving along they needed to be watered every day. 50-60gal of soil based medium per bed. Thou I do have like a 40% aeration mix of perlite an rice hull, but this high aeration mix was intended.

round 2 is planted and waiting for roots to search. hopefully another 7-10 days and should be back into flower mode.

Ive never tried blumats but they dont seem ideal for coco as they wont be able to get runoff. Unless of course you dial it in tight with your waterings. But i would be very afraid of salt accumulation in the coco if it had unlimited access to nutrient solution via blumats, try your runoff every watering if youre doing this and dialing in.

There are two other systems with similar emergency watering function built in that i would recommend you having a look at:
- Subirrigated planter: plants wicks plain water from a bottom deposit with all nutes in the soil.
Ppk: theres several threads on this from delta9/ @greyfader here on icmag and its a kinda sorta synth nute version of the subirrigated planter. Its quite complicated but i can confirm personally some of its features regarding the perched watertable. Its a very nice rabbit hole...

Hoping that Delta/Grey finishes his house move and gets back on the boards here soon as he really is a very good resource...

 

[Hiddenjems]

Nothing determines quality like the genetics used, heat, rh, light, can all give their share in growing aspects, but the smoke will be shit if the genetics is shit that's it, no matter if your a master grower or not.
What most people don't get (even the old heads apparently) is that environment don't say shit about quality, they think that if you just buy the right light, just dimm it enough, just add enough cal mag, be on 20c, no be on 25c, lol... Nothing will help if your seed/clone is shit.
The lucky thing is, if you hold the right genetics in your hand, even In the worst environment it will be a good smoke, a lame plant in terms of growing aspects maybe, but the smoke traits are there.
People who say that you get shit weed from good genetics is because you don't know how to grow, don't realize most of the time it has nothing to do with skill, it's just that you don't have good genetics to begin with.
I remember I had a wicked clone of cheese a long time ago, I grew it like shit everytime, I had no perfect conditions, far from it, still was a killer better than everyone else smoke.

This is the biggest lie in this industry, genetics have gone fucked.
I really think that most of light talk is meant to distract us from the major genetic drift and one time hit breeders out there that are mixing names with unverified clones to make a quick buck, destroying the consistency we used to have in terms of lines, names, seeds etc.

In my experience environment affects yield way more than it does quality. If i screw up a run I just get less of the same quality usually.

 

[Rocket Soul]

In my experience environment affects yield way more than it does quality. If i screw up a run I just get less of the same quality usually.

For us we definitely get a difference in quality depending on environment which aligns with general guidelines:
Too hot: fluffier buds
Too humid in flower: shitty terps
Too cold: lower yield and generally lower transpiration

If you and trifecta get the same quality independent of environment then maybe specify a bit re the environmentals youre having to adapt to rather than just general statements. No ill meant by questioning you just hope you can share a bit more about your setups and results and whether you have any outside feedback (like from buyers) to confirm your conclusions.

 

[Hiddenjems]

For us we definitely get a difference in quality depending on environment which aligns with general guidelines:
Too hot: fluffier buds
Too humid in flower: shitty terps
Too cold: lower yield and generally lower transpiration

If you and trifecta get the same quality independent of environment then maybe specify a bit re the environmentals youre having to adapt to rather than just general statements. No ill meant by questioning you just hope you can share a bit more about your setups and results and whether you have any outside feedback (like from buyers) to confirm your conclusions.

I’ve had pump failures wilt my plants completely, with lots of dead biomass as a result. My harvest was off by about 40%, but quality was fine.

I’ve had a cooling failure let it hit 120* in one of my rooms, nearly killing the plants, only to recover and yield less than half of usual.

The only thing I’ve ever tried that significantly reduced quality was an experiment where I grew clones in living soil next to my flood table. They didn’t even look like the same plant at all. Loose fluffy buds compared to the hydro table. And they took 10 more days to finish.

 

[gmanwho]

Ive never tried blumats but they dont seem ideal for coco as they wont be able to get runoff. Unless of course you dial it in tight with your waterings. But i would be very afraid of salt accumulation in the coco if it had unlimited access to nutrient solution via blumats, try your runoff every watering if youre doing this and dialing in.

There are two other systems with similar emergency watering function built in that i would recommend you having a look at:
- Subirrigated planter: plants wicks plain water from a bottom deposit with all nutes in the soil.
Ppk: theres several threads on this from delta9/ @greyfader here on icmag and its a kinda sorta synth nute version of the subirrigated planter. Its quite complicated but i can confirm personally some of its features regarding the perched watertable. Its a very nice rabbit hole...

Hoping that Delta/Grey finishes his house move and gets back on the boards here soon as he really is a very good resource...

hey rocket
these are not in coco, they are amended soil.
and 2 ,cross contamination occurs when you recirculate nutrient. and or have feed that also can act like a drain as well. One site can back feed to another in some of the ppk setups. ya u can use calcium hypo, uv filters, biofilters, or peroxyacetic acid

Also if it is only a one way feed in, things build in concentration then become antagonistic. and even if i do reduce input ec to compensate high ec build up. theres a point when being frugule by holding onto nutrient becomes ignorance an plants will suffer.

ran ppks some years ago, i am familiar with delta/ greyfader threads and have spent some time there and in PM with him. Have also ran nft tables, bio-buckets, recirc dwc. ebb and flood tables and bucket in bucket ebb flood systems, recirc coco.

lately also running a top drip dtw coco bucket system. a 5 gal paint strainer bag with 1 gal of perlite placed in the bottom, then a 2 gal bag of coco placed ontop.

I have also spent the last 25 years of my life outside the garden servicing sterilizers and various sterilization systems. Hepa filtration, UV , ozone, PCO. been part of multiple infectious disease training and or other related courses. Article after article. tissue culture courses. mycology courses. Pathology and anything soil microbiology related that i can cram into this pea sized brain of mine while plagued from add and some dyslexia to a degree.

Everything ive learned along the way shows me i dont like recirculating nutrient that once has been already picked through by the plants. (yes this is what soil is, but its different) Or any system that has the higher possibility from cross contamination from another site. period. Or planly put, reduce the ammount of cross contamination within reason. Without getting into a Lab setting clean room scenario.

Without a meter that can show individual npk ca mg si cl, and one of the most important when in concentration ..Na. recirculating is a gamble imo. been there, been bit more then a few times.

Also messing with 15 gal sips now. came up with a way to limit bio film cross contamination, but thats for another post and thread elsewhere.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I’ve had pump failures wilt my plants completely, with lots of dead biomass as a result. My harvest was off by about 40%, but quality was fine.

I’ve had a cooling failure let it hit 120* in one of my rooms, nearly killing the plants, only to recover and yield less than half of usual.

The only thing I’ve ever tried that significantly reduced quality was an experiment where I grew clones in living soil next to my flood table. They didn’t even look like the same plant at all. Loose fluffy buds compared to the hydro table. And they took 10 more days to finish.

When i talk about environment affecting quality its more about things being consistently out of wack. Have you ever flowered in consistent 90F ? It will cause your buds to go fluffy. Pump failure and living soil i wouldnt consider environment really, its more like misshaps and different growing techniques. Im glad though that you seem to have enough control or enough of a forgiving climate that you can handle misshaps effectively but i wouldnt really say that anything you quoted is an argument that environment doesnt affect quality, only yield.

 

[Hiddenjems]

When i talk about environment affecting quality its more about things being consistently out of wack. Have you ever flowered in consistent 90F ? It will cause your buds to go fluffy. Pump failure and living soil i wouldnt consider environment really, its more like misshaps and different growing techniques. Im glad though that you seem to have enough control or enough of a forgiving climate that you can handle misshaps effectively but i wouldnt really say that anything you quoted is an argument that environment doesnt affect quality, only yield.

I think what you’re reaching for is the difference between acute and chronic environmental issues.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I think what you’re reaching for is the difference between acute and chronic environmental issues.

Exactly. You can generally recover well from acute environmental issues but chronic problems (imo) will make an impact on quality. Our summer grows tend to fetch a lower price per unit than our winter grows due to heat and fluffy buds. We use the same cultivar/clines and between a good grow and a bad grow we can have about 30% difference in selling price due to quality.

I also think that you may notice things differently if you are growing comercial or for personal stash in that comercial is less fogiving since its not yourself assessing the quality.

 

[CocoNut 420]

OK never mind

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

For us we definitely get a difference in quality depending on environment which aligns with general guidelines:
Too hot: fluffier buds
Too humid in flower: shitty terps
Too cold: lower yield and generally lower transpiration

If you and trifecta get the same quality independent of environment then maybe specify a bit re the environmentals youre having to adapt to rather than just general statements. No ill meant by questioning you just hope you can share a bit more about your setups and results and whether you have any outside feedback (like from buyers) to confirm your conclusions.

I'm with you on those environment changes, they will manifest more in the density, budding, weight etc...
For me the effect was still the same after a shitty grow, maybe less powerful terps like you say but still same.
That's why I follow nature, and change conditions when I'm growing, from high heat and high humidity in veg and start of flower, finishing with a cold and dry as possible VPD.
Its hard no doubt as you need to introduce dehumidifier and make my ac work hard but it's the best way for high quality without losing so much weight on the way there.

 

[Hiddenjems]

I think the “quality” definition can be very broad as well. Around here “quality” is when a joint actuality gets you high for more than 30-45 minutes. How much it takes to make weight is not really relevant.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

Yeah quality for me is effect first, taste 2nd, smell third.
And by quality I mean trichomes.
Quality of grow is a different aspect.
I'm not a yield chaser aswell but it's an important parameter although last