KFB vs. DWC vs. Bio-buckets
- Thread starter pumpkin2006
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GorillaGrower
Member
The thing about KFBs is there is massive holes in it everywhere. First it does give you low plant numbers.. but if you ACtually get 2-3 lbs a plant... with a longer veg btw.. and get busted.. your gonnna have 2-3lb x how many plants you have. If you look at norml laws you need to be in certain states.. just make the low plant numbers workout. ie getting busted with a basement full of treess, weighing 15 lbs of real ganja.. will definetly give the DA plenty of ammo.. remember growers are worried ab out plant numbers more than the DA is they just want the bust and will have a multitude of things to throw at someone growing 15 lbs of mj once a trial would start.
Second.. the vertical lighting works well.. but the lighting at the side is totally f'd up. first he uses all his diagrams to show how reflective light is lost to traveling the distance.. but your wasting tons of 600s around the outside.. with half of it bouncing of the walls and traveling much farther than a reflector. Against the whole Idea of it, right? Never tried gavita bulbs with refletors built in.. but it seems that would be the way to go to start trying to make the outside bulbs more efficient.
KFB works more efficiently in larger setups for sure. That way there are more bulbs hanging between instead of to the side.
ONE thing needed to mention here.. Krusty swore by 5 days nutes flush for 2 days water each week on that cycle. Honestly if everyone did that with every system we would see alot less problems. And much Higher growth. It's just that most people feel there spending too much on nutes/lazy.. in the end with any system it will work much better. the only way better is a run-to-waste setup.
the system is a ein Gedi system using soaker hose instead of a spinner. I found a link very quickly to explain.. why the 24/7 doens't help growth at all.
http://www.mayhillpress.com/ein-gedi.html
For those lazy ones.. it says there are three zones to pay attention to.. the top.. which doesn't do much(reason 24/7 isn't helping) the middle.. getting nft'd or aero does some.. but the bottom inches of water it sits in are where the feeders(secondary roots are) the feeders are what takes in the most oxygen and nutrients to the plant. that's the reason DWC works great but doesn't need 24/7 just to have a rez w/ a good ph, tds, and DO reading.
Second.. the vertical lighting works well.. but the lighting at the side is totally f'd up. first he uses all his diagrams to show how reflective light is lost to traveling the distance.. but your wasting tons of 600s around the outside.. with half of it bouncing of the walls and traveling much farther than a reflector. Against the whole Idea of it, right? Never tried gavita bulbs with refletors built in.. but it seems that would be the way to go to start trying to make the outside bulbs more efficient.
KFB works more efficiently in larger setups for sure. That way there are more bulbs hanging between instead of to the side.
ONE thing needed to mention here.. Krusty swore by 5 days nutes flush for 2 days water each week on that cycle. Honestly if everyone did that with every system we would see alot less problems. And much Higher growth. It's just that most people feel there spending too much on nutes/lazy.. in the end with any system it will work much better. the only way better is a run-to-waste setup.
the system is a ein Gedi system using soaker hose instead of a spinner. I found a link very quickly to explain.. why the 24/7 doens't help growth at all.
http://www.mayhillpress.com/ein-gedi.html
For those lazy ones.. it says there are three zones to pay attention to.. the top.. which doesn't do much(reason 24/7 isn't helping) the middle.. getting nft'd or aero does some.. but the bottom inches of water it sits in are where the feeders(secondary roots are) the feeders are what takes in the most oxygen and nutrients to the plant. that's the reason DWC works great but doesn't need 24/7 just to have a rez w/ a good ph, tds, and DO reading.
icdog said:
By insuring you have massive bubbles not small bubbles either you want massive big bubbles which burst filming the roots with nutrients/water this is what causes the nft effect.NUTRIENT FILM is exactly what you get when the bubbles burst, Rather then the SWC effect which is what you get when the roots lay in a few " of water.
The whole idea is to keep around 2-3" of water in the bottom bucket so that when you push massive air through it rather then producing the standard bubbles you see from this type of air in dwc which flow to the top and just pop splashing small ammounts of water up you get bigger bubbles that kinda swell and burst sorta like when you mix bubbles in for a bubble bath. This is the key to getting that healthy root zone.
To me run the feed lines 24/7 only for the first week or 2 max, Its good to run it 24/7 to guide the roots to the film below, However once the roots develope and reach the nutrient film its best to create a timed schedule on the feeds. Thats how I would do it. Start them off with the feeds running 24/7 and then switch over to a timed feed.
pumpkin2006
Member
I got mold on small plants with RH of 70% in the last weeks of flowering. How is it that these huge colas don't mold up with the recommended RH?
GorillaGrower
Member
Haha.. na I wont be going over there to talk to Krusty. the KBS is amazing.. but just like everything in life there's always a draw back. He would never admit he contridicts himself.. he would probably drop a comment on me being a cvnt whore or something.. and then go back to stress free enviroment ranting. Which again tells you that if its the eviroment.. and Krusty says it. .then its not the buckets which produce gram/watts its the CGE closed growing enviroment . which by the way is dismal unless you get 2-3 lbs for the amount of space,light, involved.. a krusty bucket has 5-6' centers so 64ft2.. huge space per. 1000 watts of light per. So with a short veg.. if you dont get 2. lbs + your losing. Krusty systems usually get around .25 grams a watt a month ... sorry but that's not my goal
DHF we can drop the 2-3 week period.. but unless I see pictures theres no way in hell I would believe it.. unles your using a crappy long internode plant with dismal branching. the KFB give the plants a chance to grow very wide and lush.. if its not done like that followed by raising the lights your not getting 2-3 lbs. So yeah if you tried the KBS you might have vegged for 3 weeks but I nor anyone that really grows knows that your not getting enough veg in for a 2-3 lb plants.
If you actually go through some of the old posts you'll find people vegging for 8 min weeks to get big big treez.. which is the only way to make KFB worth its while.
Again your going to need to swallow the fact that i too was a KRusty nuthugger at some point in time.. and used KFB.
DHF we can drop the 2-3 week period.. but unless I see pictures theres no way in hell I would believe it.. unles your using a crappy long internode plant with dismal branching. the KFB give the plants a chance to grow very wide and lush.. if its not done like that followed by raising the lights your not getting 2-3 lbs. So yeah if you tried the KBS you might have vegged for 3 weeks but I nor anyone that really grows knows that your not getting enough veg in for a 2-3 lb plants.
If you actually go through some of the old posts you'll find people vegging for 8 min weeks to get big big treez.. which is the only way to make KFB worth its while.
Again your going to need to swallow the fact that i too was a KRusty nuthugger at some point in time.. and used KFB.
Tomatoesonly
Active member
how do you expect normal people to run A/C units, dehumidifiers, rez coolers and all these lights strung around the place and not raise suspicions when they have a $500 electrical bill? I would love to have access to 50,000 Watts and not have to worry about people wondering just what in the hell is going on.
No wonder KFB stuff does so well, you have a goddamn electrical power plant as a support system.
Flying below the radar and having a perfect environment usually don't go together.
No wonder KFB stuff does so well, you have a goddamn electrical power plant as a support system.
Flying below the radar and having a perfect environment usually don't go together.
HaaaaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Damn thats funny FRED, "draw back a bloody stump"!!! still lmao!!!!
Roots from 3.5 in a 5 gallon: ebb & flow buckets
plants that roots beloged to:
about as simple a hydro system you can get: gravity ebb & flow buckets:
the trick to gravity fed ebb & flow: the overfow. (pvc comin up over and back to rez, completely controlling height of flood without the need of a controller.
2 happy ebb & flow bushes:
these in bad need of vert lighting, got to big for their britches, my fault, but how else you gonna learn?
Was it you GG that asked if i had tried lava with e & f ? well anyhow, i planned to but never did, these are all Hydroton, not staked, and on the flipside iv'e had plants half that size fall right over, strain maybe , i dont know. I do know that Bartender187 just used lava with 3.5 ers and it worked killer. A KBS freind of mine once described it to me as fill a bucket with Hydroton and one with Lava and try pushin your hand into each bucket. Your hand goes right through the Hydroton, where with the lava it wont budge. But im sure your aware of this, im just rambling
However i did want to tell ya my next E & F bucket run will be with natural Silica rock/stone whatever mixed with COCO Chips, not fiber but chips.
More rambling upcoming on my own lil KBS system that would guarantee me multiple bloody stumps from krusty, Haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaa Still laughin my ass off FRED!!! But i tell ya that thing worked like nothin' else, will have to post a few pics of it.
OK i think i rambled long enough, time to go handwater!!!!! jeez im a dumbass sometimes!! However the plants look good, but my back is gone!!! HaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!
peace and love man!!
bonz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Roots from 3.5 in a 5 gallon: ebb & flow buckets
plants that roots beloged to:
about as simple a hydro system you can get: gravity ebb & flow buckets:
the trick to gravity fed ebb & flow: the overfow. (pvc comin up over and back to rez, completely controlling height of flood without the need of a controller.
2 happy ebb & flow bushes:
these in bad need of vert lighting, got to big for their britches, my fault, but how else you gonna learn?
Was it you GG that asked if i had tried lava with e & f ? well anyhow, i planned to but never did, these are all Hydroton, not staked, and on the flipside iv'e had plants half that size fall right over, strain maybe , i dont know. I do know that Bartender187 just used lava with 3.5 ers and it worked killer. A KBS freind of mine once described it to me as fill a bucket with Hydroton and one with Lava and try pushin your hand into each bucket. Your hand goes right through the Hydroton, where with the lava it wont budge. But im sure your aware of this, im just rambling
However i did want to tell ya my next E & F bucket run will be with natural Silica rock/stone whatever mixed with COCO Chips, not fiber but chips.
More rambling upcoming on my own lil KBS system that would guarantee me multiple bloody stumps from krusty, Haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaa Still laughin my ass off FRED!!! But i tell ya that thing worked like nothin' else, will have to post a few pics of it.
OK i think i rambled long enough, time to go handwater!!!!! jeez im a dumbass sometimes!! However the plants look good, but my back is gone!!! HaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!
peace and love man!!
bonz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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pumpkin2006
Member
Bonzo, those are awesome looking pics/plants. I hope to be as good as you. I assume those 1000w's that those plants are under; I'm curious as to what you yield per light and your veg times. G's per w/m would be cool, if you would bless us with it.
GG and DHF, cool it you guys; GG, that quote that you did, saying that DHF had never grown KFB was based off of ill logic. It was obvious that he was mocking Krusty and trying to piss him off. To be honest, I respect both of you, but you both have shitty attitudes toward each other. I would avoid talking because neither of you show growth through your discussions with each other. I'm not "calling" either one of you out or saying that your a lier or some fake, but it would be cool to see some pictures of your grows, for educational purposes; DHF, I can understand the security concern of posting pics, so I respect that.
So since I started this thread, I'm gonna call it my thread and I'm sure a MOD will shut this down at my request, so if you wanna learn, stay, if you don't STFU and get out; I dont like ->
I guess this is necessary to "prove" my worth on this site so:
Unfortunately I got root aphids and had some root issues for about a week, so I lost 1/3 of this harvest and the plants got stressed; their starting to come back now and will yield fairly well. The entire system has 1 1/2" film of water running threw each gully and is constantly cycling. There are 4' air diffusers in each gully and a total of 96 plant sites. 1/4 hp chiller, GH big pump (don't know gph) and 70 gallon res; system is 4' x 16' long and made by me.
GG and DHF, cool it you guys; GG, that quote that you did, saying that DHF had never grown KFB was based off of ill logic. It was obvious that he was mocking Krusty and trying to piss him off. To be honest, I respect both of you, but you both have shitty attitudes toward each other. I would avoid talking because neither of you show growth through your discussions with each other. I'm not "calling" either one of you out or saying that your a lier or some fake, but it would be cool to see some pictures of your grows, for educational purposes; DHF, I can understand the security concern of posting pics, so I respect that.
So since I started this thread, I'm gonna call it my thread and I'm sure a MOD will shut this down at my request, so if you wanna learn, stay, if you don't STFU and get out; I dont like ->
I guess this is necessary to "prove" my worth on this site so:
Unfortunately I got root aphids and had some root issues for about a week, so I lost 1/3 of this harvest and the plants got stressed; their starting to come back now and will yield fairly well. The entire system has 1 1/2" film of water running threw each gully and is constantly cycling. There are 4' air diffusers in each gully and a total of 96 plant sites. 1/4 hp chiller, GH big pump (don't know gph) and 70 gallon res; system is 4' x 16' long and made by me.
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BakedBeans
Member
Has anyone ever attempted to veg and flower a KBS system outside or in a greenhouse before? I imagine it could be quite productive given a CGE and CO2, but using the sun.
I'm sure someone has tried it. Yes??
bb
I'm sure someone has tried it. Yes??
bb
BakedBeans
Member
Oh, and has anyone run these organically? I mean non-PBP. Or aquaponically, for that matter?
bb
bb
G
Guest
WOW i don't remember that! sounds more like a coco run but in lava, shit, i had massively overgrown rooms at 32 days...GorillaGrower said:
i just looked at some pics, a plant i had must have grown about 2' in 10 days
pumpkin2006 said:
You have to have a proper air filtration system, And keep the night temps around 80f and IMO plenty of air movement through-out the canopy.
Nice setup pumpkin, indeed lots of air curculation as well as fresh air intake, and some strains are just by nature more prone to mold/budrot, i have had several strains goin' at on time in same system all getting the same treatmeant and one strain would get the rot and the others with big as if not bigger buds did not?
Also i wanted to ask you about your rez and do you have it curculating and/or bubblers in it just to keep it moving as well as infusing oxygen, i go a little crazy with my rez but i hate gnats and i know the added oxygen is so beneficial to the deal. In this pic you can see i have a 1000 gph pump,sure i coulda went smaller but it was the only one i had available, but you can see its just sitting in the rez with a piece of 1/2 tubing coming up to an elbow and another piece of hose off that, bubbly!!! i noticed a big difference in growth with this added to my rez: massive oxygen infusion, it's a good thing, as Martha Stewert would say!!
Haps, also in this pic you can see a bit of how the gravity feed works: The blue hose to the pvc, valve, then up to a horizontal pvc run, you can see the pvc "Ts" on the run, theres a bucket right above each T that feeds each bucket, ill show ya how there connected to the buckets later but theres a hole in the bottom of each bucket and then connected to the T. i used a 640 gph pump to fill 16 TWO gallon buckets, heres the trick:
this is the "overflow/flood hieght control". Its conected to the run in the last pic withe anothe T and the height of flood is controlled by how high you set your "overflow". the water /nutes can only go as high or low as you set your overflow. Let me know if its makin any sense, i have some clearer pics and you will get it.
peace
bonz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also i wanted to ask you about your rez and do you have it curculating and/or bubblers in it just to keep it moving as well as infusing oxygen, i go a little crazy with my rez but i hate gnats and i know the added oxygen is so beneficial to the deal. In this pic you can see i have a 1000 gph pump,sure i coulda went smaller but it was the only one i had available, but you can see its just sitting in the rez with a piece of 1/2 tubing coming up to an elbow and another piece of hose off that, bubbly!!!
i noticed a big difference in growth with this added to my rez: massive oxygen infusion, it's a good thing, as Martha Stewert would say!! Haps, also in this pic you can see a bit of how the gravity feed works: The blue hose to the pvc, valve, then up to a horizontal pvc run, you can see the pvc "Ts" on the run, theres a bucket right above each T that feeds each bucket, ill show ya how there connected to the buckets later but theres a hole in the bottom of each bucket and then connected to the T. i used a 640 gph pump to fill 16 TWO gallon buckets, heres the trick:
this is the "overflow/flood hieght control". Its conected to the run in the last pic withe anothe T and the height of flood is controlled by how high you set your "overflow". the water /nutes can only go as high or low as you set your overflow. Let me know if its makin any sense, i have some clearer pics and you will get it.
peace
bonz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
pumpkin2006
Member
I keep run my system that way for both reasons you asked.
what strain are you runnin in there pumpkin? Arent all the bubbles fun!!!!
The best ive done is about .85 GPW and i have really screwed a few up by whats been said so much here about stickin' with the same system and strain for a couple runs and getin' it totally dialed, im a jackass and have to constantly fiddle and change and try new stuff but thats gotten old ive got a few killer moms and i know how im gonna run em...............for at least 3 runs id say.
peace
bonz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The best ive done is about .85 GPW and i have really screwed a few up by whats been said so much here about stickin' with the same system and strain for a couple runs and getin' it totally dialed, im a jackass and have to constantly fiddle and change and try new stuff but thats gotten old ive got a few killer moms and i know how im gonna run em...............for at least 3 runs id say.
peace
bonz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
G
Guest
thats just under 2lb per light right?Bonzo said:
if you're runnin the proper strain, anything more and you're out of room and the plants grow into each other. 3" growth a day adds up quickMID TOWN said:
