KFB vs. DWC vs. Bio-buckets

[blazeoneup]

I'd choose ebb n grow buckets over dwc when running the kinda wattage your planning on running More support for larger plants..

Dwc is plenty capable of yielding up there with most systems, Maybe not kfb but most others dwc competes. However dwc lacks support for huge plants or big trees you will have no option but to tie them up and find way to secure each plant otherwise it can tip your nets over and cause disaster. For this reason I reccomend ebb n grow style buckets for you.

As bonzo mentioned above they are really simple plug and play type systems no real work involved and they are relatively cheap for a nice size system.

 

[pumpkin2006]

Thanks blaze, I really appreciate it. I know your a DWC master and really advocate the use of them, so it shows that you really have the best intentions in mind for those around you.

Bonzo, I read almost all of your posts in the link in your sig. So in the end, which did you like better, the ebb n' grow or your style of "freedom" buckets?

 

[BlindDate]

Whooa.....Too much to say.

Root clogs:

Replace lower bucket with a Vittle Vault. Rip the lid off. Flat sides are perfect for bulkhead fittings.

Soaker Hose:

Use this silicone tube made by Alita. Impossible to clog and does not require high pressure Thomas pump.

 

[Bonzo]

Goddang its fun growin the good herb aint it!!!!! Woooooooooooo Hoooooooooooo!!!!!!!

Heya GG, I,ve run pretty much every bucket size and combination there of and beleive it or not, those lil 2 gal's can handle alot bigger plant than one would think. So in my case i am sticking to the 2 gallon cause i can get more in, less veg, and for best results, plants no taller than 3 feet, and thats finish height. As im sure you know lumens only penetrate so far so anything taller than that is a waste of space and time, all this im reffering to is from cuttings, from seed is a different story. By the way the new EBB and GROW are 2.5 gallon and the entire system is black, buckets, controller and rez, kinda cool! If you go through my Gallery GG you'll find a pic of a run i did with 3.5s' inside 5s' insane roots, filled the whole gap solid, it was killer but by doing that i needed a bigger rez to fill the larger bucket, more nutes and so in my opinion the new 2.5s' should be killer, scuse my long winded answer to such a simple question

Real quick, Haps i have run ebb and flow most of my growin life, why? Cause im lazy!!! As FRED said ebb and flow all but grow themselves, just change your rez at least every 2 weeks, i usually do every week, whipe every thing clean and your good to go, dont worry about leaks i hav'nt heard of anyone havin' any probs yet. I run my own concept of ebb and flow and its pvc plumbed as FRED refered to cause LEAKS SUCK!! Still, read and followed quite a few eabb and grow/multi flow threads and cant remember anyone havin' any probs? You will never go back to hand watering again i gauratee you, i am hand watering now and it kills my back and takes up way too much time, give the buckets a try my brotha you wont be dissapointed.

Man im ramblin eh? well fuck it RAMBLE ON!!! Cause i just gotta say what a beautifull system blaze put together, by far one of the best, cleanest, well thought out systems ive ever seen, its a goddang work of art no doubt! Belive me if i was thinkin of goin DWC id be at blaze's how to in a second, tight tight tight!!! Baddass work blaze!

I also gotta agree with FRED on givin krusty a ton of respect as an innovator of a system that, if youve seen any pics of him in one of his forrest's, is mind blowing to say the least. But i dont wanna talk to him, i do however thank him for all his ideas and inspiration.

I still have my kbs setup, which is hard plumed by the way and i would love to run it again someday when i have more room, but for now its ebb and flow buckets. Once i saw all the stuff that went into puttin, and runnin just my lil version of KBS, i was back to ebb and flow, easy easy easy, fun fun fun!!!! And of course big fat buds

Damn that took me an hour to type WTF is wrong with me? HE HE HE!!!!

peace out

bonz






>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nam myoho renge kyo!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[blazeoneup]

Im going to post up some links to pics of a multi flow tree style grow.

The grower was a guy who used the handle billbo, Im posting the pics from his gallery,He used the multi flow. And he done it semi tree style was pulling great numbers something like 14lbs from 7k with I think 12 plants maybe forget its been a while since we chatted but it was something like that.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56786&sort=1&size=medium&cat=500

http://www.icmag.com/ic/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56456&sort=1

 

[GorillaGrower]

thanks Bonzo.. wheres the 2.5 gal available at? I still see the blue ones for sale.
also.. on a side not.. do you/have you compared hydroton/lava rock to see which works best in multiflow/ebbnflow?


Haps dont worry about leaks unless you go KFB. The KFB has nutes pumped to each bucket 24/7 if you have a clog in one bucket.. the bucket overflows and floods the room.

with ebbnflow/multiflow your buckets flood controlled up to your given set point.

if your worried about the bottom bulkhead fitting or tee barb connection leaking.. it wont.. at worst it will drip but wont flood a room. If you cut each whole true none of the fittings should leak unless you leave like 5-10ft of tubing hanging from each bucket unsupported.

pumpkin2006 yeah.. you can yield more with sog but it will be more work in the end. Commercial growers do use the kfb method.. just not the scale that fills an entire warehouse and pays dayworkers to maintain it. There's lots of reasons NOT to go sog also.. although your semi-legal. going to a hydro store and buying cases and cases of rockwool semi-annually would be one prob with it. keeping a mother veg center 5-10 times the size of a kfb grow. would be another. Having hundreds and hundreds of babies to fill 2 10x10 rooms properly would be another.

 

[GorillaGrower]

Whooa.....Too much to say.

Root clogs:

Replace lower bucket with a Vittle Vault. Rip the lid off. Flat sides are perfect for bulkhead fittings.

Soaker Hose:

Use this silicone tube made by Alita. Impossible to clog and does not require high pressure Thomas pump.

Thanks for the info Blinddate.. I understand the tubing.. but how does the Vittle Vault help? just by giving it more room to fill in the bottom bucket?

 

[icdog]

Man I'm still confused by ebb and flow, how does that work in a bucket? I looked at a few threads but am still clueless on e and b.

Krusty said the plants were ready in about 2 weeks, up to his tit, sounds very possible. I've seen 6 plants chronic in nft get to about 24 inches after about 22 days of veg under a 400w mh.
I imagine 10 with enough light in kbs would easily hit that or more in veg at 2 weeks.

Could you guys post all the new things with the kbs system that people have come up with?
Pumps, hoses, do you still put that pot on the bottom, anything else that is very useful.

Tx

 

[GorillaGrower]

hey icdog.. check out the 6th post here .. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=6341
and read how the krypto bucket works..
the krypto=ebb n grow = multi flow all the same.

icdog.. i know it seems possible.. but its absolutely not possible to take a clone and get a full 3.5 ft tree in 2 weeks. a clone needs to get some rooting in the lava rocks before it will start to really grow fast. a 42" plant would have to grow 36-38" in 14 days with no roots. the only way is putting a pre vegged clone ie more vegging than 14 days. KFBS are awesome but not that awesome. that was the reason for the whole soquick/krusty wars. Soquick was 1 week or less veg while krusty had to veg longer than 2 weeks.. if Krusty or anyone didn't have to veg alot longer w/ KFB than what was the point of the soquick/Kfb threads?

 

[Funkyskunk]

root clogs, just use two drain lines for each bucket instead of one. cheap insurance.


sup DHF, blaze1. how the hell are yas doin fellas!?

havent logged into here for awhile, thought i would check and see what is goings on over here and all. with the seed wars stuff happining, i wanted to see if anuything has changed first hand. but i guess not. well, not yet anyways.


layter




fs

 

[GorillaGrower]

24/7 feed doesn't speed anything up.. it just happens to be easy to leave a pump on 24/7 keeping the buckets solution moving. All hydro medium has different flooding schedules.. NFT/DWC which is really ein garde hydroponics just happens to be 24/7.

18 hrs light is what all veggin plants should get.
Mega light is what you give to plants you want to get the most out of in any situation.
Growing in a sealed enviroment grows big plants fast along with the rest of these points.
but they dont really have anything to do with KFB actually being able to grow faster than other systems. the NFT is what does that.


Unless the KFB have froth in the bottom half of the bucket then there not KFB .. there Rec DWC w/ KRusty add ons.

shiskeberry #1 does work very well .. a large heavy yielding afghan x would work too.. like say lui

 

[C21H30O2]

could someone post some good links to krusty's method (i have searched but most threads end up being flames or going off topic) on this site or anyother? i have seen a few KFB grows but none explaning the reason why its good. ie the theory behind it.

 

[sugabear_II]

I saw a good post recently on stadium style growing in one gallon bags with vertical hung MHs

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=57927

I wonder if you could set up a couple of these with those ebb and grow systems. instead could be very productive with clones. zero veg time. maybe a two room setup on flip/flop timer with a separate mom and clone space?

You could also setup grow bags like this guy did with soilless mix and build an auto feeding drip system, put gutters under the plants and drain to waste. dail it in and it will be low maintence.

-suga

edit: also I remember some pretty sweet dwc vertical grows back on CW where 6 plants in dwc or ebb and grow are arranged around a vertical bulb. You of course need a trellis or screen for this style of growing and work is more. but can be very productive.

Having grown dwc for many cycles I think the key is to have some form of screen or other support that is rigidly attached the lid of your grow container. I like to have the plant, lid, and screen all be one rigid unit that I can lift out of the bucket below with the roots hanging. I could never imagine growing dwc without a screen above.

problems I've found from dwc are the temps of course - that is one of the things you don't worry so much about with ebb and flow from what I understand.

 

[Funkyskunk]

the biggest flaw with KBS is the 24/7 feed, in my experiences anyways.

i have found that 24/7 feed is good for about the first month of growth. but after that, the root ball becomes large enuff to not let the flow of water thru to the bottom bucket. resulting in drowned roots in the upper bucket. K would say to try and keep just the tips of the root ball wet. but i like to get the whole rootball wet/feed. yas just got to get your timed feeding down according to what medium yas are using. of coarse, i would say that yas gotta have a constant feed to lower bucket. but that upper bucket needs a timed feed in flower. i have had total loses from this mistake. do not let it happen to you. you will not loose anything/weight going to a timed feed on the upper bucket. i have athread at another place, but i dont wanna thro it out there. PM me and i will shoot yas a link.

i would have to disagree with DHF about "babying this system"

as, the only thing i do is top off my res with RO water and change res every two weeks. now, dont take me the wrong way DHF. i love yas bro! but, i dont see where any babying comes into play. yeah, yas gotta know what the hell yas are doing. and that doez come from experience. but, yas gotta start/hydro somewhere, dontcha? yeah, i wish i could have had K come over to my place and hold my hand and teach me. but that did not happen. and i had failures from not knowing how to read my plants. but that too will only come with experience.

this style is not for everyone. yas gotta have space. and cash to get started.
btu once it si dialed in. only thing to worry about is how many buds need to be tied up today! teehee



layter



fs

 

[icdog]

So there are 2 feed lines? How are they setup and what are the times?

 

[pumpkin2006]

yas just got to get your timed feeding down according to what medium yas are using.

No offense, but isn't this just a glorified ebb n' grow system at that point. I mean whats stopping anyone from making their own ebb n' grow bucket setup, but with those dog food containers and putting the silicone air hose in the bottom?

 

[GorillaGrower]

I'm not saying to run the KFBs different.. and nothing is stopping you from doing that(i'm sure it will work) but there wouldn't be a reason to.. let me explain.

the ebbn grow is made to be easy.. if you start adding air lines and stuff.. well its not ebb n flow and theres no reason to add air to a ebbn flow that happens via air getting drawn through the buckets.

icdog.. the feed lines are doubled, just for insurance.. you don't have to do it.. but when there's only 6 plants or whatever.. 12 lines isn't a big deal.

Funky Skunk.. exactly they do clog. and you have to do something about it. Just like you said running the pump 24/7 is to keep the solution moving.. it doesn't grow better.. if not worse in the top bucket.

DHF - I understand where your coming from.. but you don't understand where I am coming from. For some reason you think I just remember this stuff... well your right.. but it was from experience.

I have stated its not possible to get 3.5' tress per krusty's method in 2 weeks noo matter what he says.. why? because no one has been able to confirm his claims and do the same themselves.


Running 24/7 isn't what makes the KFB great .. that's for it to work right(you said it).. the ACTion in the KFB is the extreme air NFT. IF you don't have it then its not a KFB.. its something else. NFT-aeroponics offers the most Oxygen to the roots than roots sitting in maxed DO water.

Krusty is thought of as some god of hydroponics.. but he actually doesn't understand his own system..

quote from a krusty fs - i saw alot of text but no pictures of the product ...

i highly doubt in rockwool anyone is going to even suggest/make a claim they can get plants that get as much as the buckets...rockwool is flawwed on so many levels ....

i also saw the feeding routine....what a joke....if you want a lant to get full pottential you need nft on the roots.....they ened to be filmed with nutrients 24/7

to suggest you feed them only 6 times a day is hilarious and truely shows this cry dewd has no growwing smarts

peace

krusty


it's obvious Krusty doens't have growing smarts.. the NFT happens from the Extreme air(foaming frothing).. not from the 24/7. this is fact. He states over and over again.. that froth, extreme air is what does it.. but contradicts him self with the 24/7 liines. This is pretty simple to see. If you look at a Krusty bucket system the majority of the fine thread secondary root hairs are in the bottom.. with just fat primary roots growing in the upper half of the first bucket... the roots aren't taking in much from those roots.. that have the water just running on them.

IF you read this thread I got that quote from.. http://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/showthread.php?t=11139&page=3

You'll also notice Jalisco Kid stating that changing to flood times guaranteed a better harvest. Post 58 he explains it.

Now I DIDN'T NEED to read that thread to tell you that hydroponics has different flood times per medium. That's something you find by reading books.. and experience.

AND DHF if YOU look at post #60 in that thread it has your quote... so noone has to go click on it.. here ya go

I only hope to be a shadow of your glory........
Dewd...........PLEASE SHOW US HOW TO GROW TREES LIKE YOU..............I`ve heard it but never seen it...............Start the thread and show us howta dial it in ok?............I`m dyin to know all yo secrets so I can be just like you.............. DHF........

that post was dated april 19 2007.. so Unless you DHF have grown trees via Krusty FReedom Buckets... Please dont try to tell me how it works. Because from your posts and Krusty's its obvious you all don't know exactly what's going on.

Unless you happen to be able to veg 3 1/2 ft trees in 2 weeks and flower in 5 weeks.. you definetly haven't tried it yet.

And I'm sure this isn't a big letdown to anyone.. but if you do a couple quick searches via google.. you can find all sorts of interesting info.. including a post by Krusty stating.. that he only dries his weed about a third to half as much as a person al grower... so that it wont Crush to much in the bags. So if anyone understands that... it means that the internet is full of BS and everyone should be aware.

 

[Funkyskunk]

i have yet to see anyone have perfect/ideal environment. then, one would have to choose this/kbs method. then they would have to post pics to proove. i aint saying it cant happen. if yas pre vegg right. the planst will take off right after being inserted. i think RH is a BIG factor in veg growth rates, that alot of peeps including me, dont/cant have control of. but yeah, yas get the environment perfect. and the kbs will outgrow any other method. LOL



fs

 

[icdog]

Krusty has said rh at 70 or so, isnt that a little high, especially in lights off.

How do u make sure there is nft in the bucket?

 

[blazeoneup]

IMHO 70 is a little high, But you have to understand when you put 8-10k in a room hung vertically with no cool tubes, Then the evaporation proccess of the media/system will raise the RH as well as the increased respiration proccess will rapidly raise the humidity making it very difficult to get it lower than 70%. Also Im not so sure running the usual 40-50% humidity would be healthy for large trees in this type of climate. The lower humidity would probly result in problems, Cause the heat will cause the plants to lose more moisture than they can retain, Resulting in leaf cupping and other various problems.

I think the key is keeping humidity at or around 70%, And to have proper filtration systems in place, To properly clean the air as well as keeping the night temps around 80f if possible this will help prevent any kinda of pm problems that may accur with the higher humidity levels which are kinda needed for trees to properly grow.In the type of climate KFB growers need for growing trees.

Someone else care to add to this or correct me if I am wrong...