IBL's

[Octavian]

like I said... I'm growing some out, I'll make some seeds and then I'll report what happens...

I'll be interested to see the results.

All of this could simply be the result of a breeder's offhand comment intended to discourage the dirty hacks from stealing and profiting from his work...and who couldn't understand that motivation? The only problem with it is the implications that go along with it that an educated person will pick up on.

Grat3fulh3ad, can we agree that if you do not get 100% recognizable Sour Diesel offspring in your first generation, that for the sake of accuracy, Sour Diesel IBL needs a name change? Recognizable as in if you gave it to Rez himself in a blind taste test he would identify it as Sour Diesel? Note that I am not saying IDENTICAL to the Sour Diesel clone, or anything else...simply recognizable as what it is supposed to be.

 

[SmokeyPufmaster]

Hold it!!!!!

Hold it!!!!!

First off find me where Rez states that the Ibl is not to be bred with. You can certainly breed with the Ibl. Rez states that you shouldn't breed with the Omega Diesel for reasons that I know but can't divulge.

Now I've grown many a strain that's suppost to be Ibl's and I still found variety in each and every pack. Some more stable than others. There is usually at least two phenos of a strain in every pack. Traits from their parents and grandparents come thru in sussesive generations always keeping in variations.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

For sure, man... If I don't get sours where there are supposed to be sours, ya'll will be the first to know... I'm gonna start a thread on my month old SDibls soon anyhow, so just watch me do what I normally do, and alot of questions will be answered... Like I said, Every fem I got from the v3's... 3 of them were all very similar in the sour flavor and high dept... Yeild was the deciding factor for keeper... I've got 4 if the ibl going, will germ more if they all sex the same... pollinate a bud, and see what develops...

Good Point I'd overlooked, Smokey... The IBL is for breeding, The Omega should not be bred with... and I agree with the reasons there for sure...

 

[Octavian]

First off find me where Rez states that the Ibl is not to be bred with. You can certainly breed with the Ibl. Rez states that you shouldn't breed with the Omega Diesel for reasons that I know but can't divulge.

Now I've grown many a strain that's suppost to be Ibl's and I still found variety in each and every pack. Some more stable than others. There is usually at least two phenos of a strain in every pack. Traits from their parents and grandparents come thru in sussesive generations always keeping in variations.

Hey SmokeyPufmaster, pleasure to see you pop in. Your input will be valuable, I'm sure.

The quote is from an old Overgrow post, so I can't reference it here. However, I remember it when he made the statement...it was in one of his threads on one of the previous SD releases...which one I couldn't say. I remember it then, because it made as little sense then as it does now.

Go up a post or two, in Cosmic Toker's thread, he states the quote. "SD IBL was designed to produce an inferior product when crossed to itself "

While there will of course be differences in the individuals...I'm not trying to imply that to qualify as IBL means 100% consistent offspring...just that the offspring should be 100% recognizable as that strain. In other words "true breeding" for certain traits, not all traits.

It seems to clear to me that if you call something IBL, you imply true breeding for certain traits, and for integrity's sake, one would hope that the particular traits selected for would be definitive and characteristic of that IBL.

So, when Grat3fulh3ad makes his SD IBL x SD IBL seeds, every one of the offspring should be identifiable as Sour Diesel...not identical...just identifiable or recognizable as such.

Rez himself could resolve definitivelyby answering this question. Do you get an inferior product if you cross Sour Diesel Ibl to Sour Diesel IBL?

What do you think, SmokeyPufmaster?

Oh, and IIRC, the reason not to use the Omega Diesel in a cross with the SD IBL was that it represented a backcross, and one that was determined to be inferior...or I could be stoned and making that up completely...hmmm

Octavian

 

[beancounter]

How could he name those seeds?

Hey Tag, good to see ya..

as has been suggested, 'Rez's Sour D', or perhaps, more honest woud be SDxNYCD IBL (or his own name for that cross).

All I know is the Sour D from rez I grew was nothing like the real cut, as different as 2 unrelated strains. Also, the real cut never threw out any bannanas, yet the SD IBL in the same exact conditions threw many.

Altho I only had one female to test, which doesn't seem uncommon from some of the threads I've read.

I really wish there were easily defined standards that all breeders would follow.. it seems there are defined rules, yet not everyone follows them. This just creates and perpetuates more confusion, and encourages other breeders to do the same.

Just look at all the confusion the Bubba and OG S1s have caused so far, and all the people passing off Rez's work as the real deal (trying).


Bottom line, no matter what Rez chose to call it, if it was good, it would have sold it's self..

 

[SmokeyPufmaster]

Hi there Octavian, No Rez actually wants you to cross and breed it beause he won't be making it for long. Like all things Rez does he'll move on. It's best you do what needs to be done to keep these genitics in your garden. I've never read anywhere that he states that they breed inferior offspring.

Hi Beancounter, I could never judge a strain based on one female. I grew out the 2.5's and had three great sour plants our of five. If you grew one of those pheno's then I can understand your feelings.

 

[Octavian]

I really wish there were easily defined standards that all breeders would follow.. it seems there are defined rules, yet not everyone follows them. This just creates and perpetuates more confusion, and encourages other breeders to do the same.

Hey beancounter. That's the only point I was trying to make. If you put "IBL" in the name of your strain, you're trying to capitalize on what that represents, and what people expect. "IBL" implies true breeding to some extent...it has to. If all it meant was a literal in-cross line with no selection to "stabilize" or "fix" certain traits, then what truly is the point? You are implying true-breeding, even if you don't specifically say it.

Everyone who disagrees with me, or doesn't understand needs to ask themselves this...What would you call an Inbred line that was not true breeding for any trait?

Octavian

 

[Cosmic Toker]

I've never read anywhere that he states that they breed inferior offspring.

I've known rez longer then he's even had a cut of SD to work with, trust me he said that.....he also use to think the NYCD was related to SD

Read this book

http://www.mellowgold.com/grow/mjbotany-removed/

What does Robert Connell Clarke and simple science say is going to happen to the gene pool because of bad breeding practices..?

 

[Octavian]

Hi there Octavian, No Rez actually wants you to cross and breed it beause he won't be making it for long. Like all things Rez does he'll move on. It's best you do what needs to be done to keep these genitics in your garden. I've never read anywhere that he states that they breed inferior offspring.

Hi Beancounter, I could never judge a strain based on one female. I grew out the 2.5's and had three great sour plants our of five. If you grew one of those pheno's then I can understand your feelings.

Hiya SmokeyPufmaster. I know that Rez encourages people to make hybrids with his SD IBL. But I specifically remember him stating what was mentioned previously...specifically that if you cross SD IBL to SD IBL, you will get an inferior product. THIS implies that the SD IBL is not true breeding...if it's a misquote, or taken out of context, then this whole discussion is moot.

I'm not trying to pass judgement on the quality of anything that I haven't personally grown. I've never grown Rez anything. However, I consider myself fairly educated, and can't pass up a statement that just seems to fly in the face of all reason.

I'm really curious to see how this turns out. Either Rez himself will come and resolve it for us, or we can wait for others like Grat3fulh3ad to do the legwork and report back.

Octavian

 

[pipeline]

IBL's are generally true breeding for one or more traits. If you were to make your own cross(s) from a pack of 10 SD IBL's, the individuals you cross may or may not have all the characteristics of the parents of the the IBL seed.

Using just 10 individuals to select the plants to inbreed further would likely make the resulting seed less uniform in all the desired characteristics of the line compared to using a larger number of individuals for selection like in the previous crosses. There will always be some variation, its the nature of sex, recombination of genes.

Growing a large number of progeny and then carefully choosing the best individuals for the breeding program will result in more uniformity than growin out a pack o 10 and making a few simple crosses.

 

[Octavian]

This whole discussion has reminded me of a similarly ridiculous claim made by another breeder.

Are there any old-timers out there who remember way back when Breeder Steve used to post on Cannabis World? He stated that his newly released Sweet Pink Grapefruit based Sweettooth #3 had a "genetic time bomb" that would only be released if someone attempted to hack his work...I had such a chuckle over that one. Just a stoned thought...

Octavian

 

[Octavian]

Growing a large number of progeny and then carefully choosing the best individuals for the breeding program will result in better results (more uniformity) than growin out a pack o 10 and making a few simple crosses.

I think you're slightly missing the point. You are absolutely correct in your statement, that to get the best individuals in a population, more is better. However, the point here is that the only traits that should be variable are the ones that have not been selected for...

It's a matter of genetics...at the risk of getting technical, a true breeding strain is said to be homozygous for those true-breeding traits...the only alleles present in the population for the selected traits, whatever those traits might be (taste, flower time, bud structure, whatever) are those alleles that have been selected for. If Sour Diesel IBL has been selected (for example) for a large yield and the distinctive "diesel" flavor, then every individual should have those characteristics. In this example, there might be variablity in flower time, resin coverage, relative leaf size, or even quality of high, but every one should have a decent yield and that "diesel" flavor (or whatever...I don't claim to know Rez's actual selection criteria).

It's a subtle point, and I am VERY high...hope this makes sense.

Octavian

 

[pipeline]

I understand your point, and its valid. But further inbreeding of an IBL, crossing to create an F1, could cause more of the recessive deleterious alleles to be combined and expressed, and causing more inbreeding depression, despite having many of the same characteristics of the IBL parents .

That would be a reason for them being inferior to Rez's generation of the IBL for sale.

 

[ScorpiokinG]

Heres what Rez had answered in my thread about breeding the Sour Diesel IBL to itself .

"I would....reccommend....using multiple males....and using....as a source for 'how to select males'....pics of the Sour Diesel Clone,as a reference....and actually,there will be very little phenotypic variation in the re-crossed IBL's,if you make the Right Choices.
This line is,happily,stable.

Cheers!"

 

[Octavian]

Heres what Rez had answered in my thread about breeding the Sour Diesel IBL to itself .

"I would....reccommend....using multiple males....and using....as a source for 'how to select males'....pics of the Sour Diesel Clone,as a reference....and actually,there will be very little phenotypic variation in the re-crossed IBL's,if you make the Right Choices.
This line is,happily,stable.

Cheers!"

That is a much more sensible reply than Rez gave before, and one I can certainly live with. Case closed as far as I'm concerned. At least until the grow reports come in on the offspring

ScorpiokinG, thanks for that quote, it was just what I was looking for.

Octavian

 

[TokenBlackGuy]

hurry.. someone make SD IBL f2s and spread the wealth..lol

 

[Capt. Crip]

hurry.. someone make SD IBL f2s and spread the wealth..lol

Not F2's my friend......Possibly F4,F5,F6................


I wanted to post up this quote from Shanti on his breeding techniques..
It's a quote for stablizing a strain and he goes about it one of 2 ways....

"It take 5 generations to make a stable breed.Obviously this takes 5 seasons outdoors,but since all my breeding is done inside,I can do 5 generations in about a year and a half,allowing for a few muckups..

If you begin with a known breed,say a 100% sativa,that you would like to stabilize,you find the best female and male and cross them...This is the F1 generation.Select the best male from the F1 and the best female and cross them to arrive at the F2.The best female from the F2 should be crossed to the original father you begin with to produce the F3...Select the best male from the F3 and cross it back with the original mother..You are now at the F4,which should be a stable breed producing uniform results...To test that the breeding was all true,the F4 are bred interbred among themselves,and the seeds are grown out to test for unifomity...
Another way of doing it is to begin with the mother and father,interbreed 3 or 4 times,then cross the selected femalesto the original papa male to test the seed for uniformity..."

Now it's obvious that he may of been using incorrect terminoligy but you can still stabilize a breed using interbreeding,and/or backcrossing..
I generally think of Shanti as the leader in the breeding of Cannabis..
If he feels like you can stablize using these techniques then I have to believe in this system...
Once again,all the plants are not going to be exactly alike no matter what technique you use..Stabilizing for odor/flavor and the general high is much much easier than trying to make identical plants as far as appearance,flavor/odor,quality of the high,color,branching pattern and other traits..
I have not grown an IBL or Landrace that were not variable in 2 or more of these general traits..Theres always variables in all strains from all breeders and all places..

As for SD IBL....Goals were established and met..(Look at JLP's pics of SD IBL)..This is fact and all that really matters to the breeder...


This has been a good thread for info...Just wish the flaming and trolling could have been left out of the discussion......
Take care everyone........................................CC

 

[moonymonkey]

thnx man!++ good read+ peace moooonss/xxxxxx

 

[killabrown420]

hurry.. someone make SD IBL f2s and spread the wealth..lol

gimme like 3 months


so far pretty uniform, these two show the most variation, ones short and the others not so short

if I find a male I will be making a variety of crosses w/ the SD IBL, who knows what I'll end up with, but chances are it'll be good