IBL's

[clearcutter]

Growing/breedin outdoors doesn't necessarily mean better. I was just making a general statement that growing a larger population of plants "may" allow you to find/make better selections.

 

[mace_ecam]

Where some of you are lacking understanding here, and seem to think that calling something an IBL is the same as calling it a landrace...
Wrong... Landraces are IBLs but IBLs are not necessarily landraces... A line can most certianly be called an inbred line, if it has only been selectively inbred for several sucessive generations...

unfortunately you are wrong, too. At least by the definitions i checked.
Landraces are not IBLs.

Landrace: early cultivated forms of a crop species, evolved from a wild population.

Inbred line: (1) a pure line usually originating by self-pollination and selection; (2) the product of inbreeding.

Taken from the glossary (page 474) of Breeding Field Crops by Poehlman and Sleper.

Landrace refers to a race of animals or plants ideally suited for the land (environment) in which they live and, in some cases, work; they often develop naturally with minimal assistance or guidance from humans (or from humans using traditional rather than modern breeding methods), hence are usually older, less modern races.

The earmark of a landrace is it's adaptation to the environment, both physical and human, and because of that, the stable phenotype over time.

The term Landrace was first coined in 1890 and no references were made untill 20 years later. In the period between 1909–1952 several definitions of the term landrace were presented. No definitions were discovered in articles published in the period 1953–1974

There are many definitions of landraces and IBL's out there, but the more i check, the more it seems like Landraces and IBL's are quite the opposite.
Looking forward for your definition Grat3fulh3ad.

Mace ecam... You are quick to post up a fancy sounding term like Incest Depression... Funny because 'incest depression' is a psychological condition... I think the term you are hunting for is 'inbreeding depression'... Instead of just making people aware that there is such a thing as inbreeding depression, why don't you give us a definition, and explain how in applies to this model... Also don't you think that outbreeding depression should be mentioned in the same explanation?

You're right, it was inbreeding depression i was talking about, since such low effective breeding populations are used.

Effective breeding population is one of the most basic parameters of population genetics. The idealised Ne is by definition infinitely large and diverse and fully represents all the potential genetic expressions in the population.
The actual calculation is fairly simple arithmetic and goes as follows:
Ne = 4 * (# of Males) * (# of Females) / (# of Males) + (# of Females)
For example a grower selects 1 male and 500 females for breeding. The effective breeding population is; (4) * (1) * (500) / (500+1) = 4. The effective breeding population can never be larger than the number of males selected for breeding. Another example 50 males 10 females Ne becomes 2000/60 or 33.33.
I read the article by DJ Short regarding his breeding of the famous Blueberry wherein he states that he only uses one male for his breeding selections. That might help explain why Blueberry is so resistant to breeding improvement. To quote, "Second, I select only one male from any single breeding project. Again, this simplifies things and avoids mistakes enormously. That male is generally selected at about the third week in the flowering cycle, unless it is a clone from another project".
By and large most cannabis breeders tend to ignore matters like effective breeding population when making their selections for males.

As far as 'problems' with closet breeding... There can be problems dealing with any very specific environment... but plants to be grown in a specefic environment would perform better there if their ancestors have become adapted to that specific environment...

the problem is less the environment imho, but the low numbers of plants used.
"Its not what you put in, its what you leave out."

 

[clearcutter]

To me... breeding is all about selection... Although indoors, I look for exactly the plant I want to breed with... If i have to grow 1000 or 10 to find it,

I agree. For example, my favorite skunk has to very distinct smelling phenos. One real skunky and a fruity/strawberry one. If your looking for one smell or the other it doesn't take that many plants to find it. Imo it all comes down to knowing what you want.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

the outdoors is wild!!!

it's all about "survival factor" ...only da fittest of da fittest shall survive!!!


indoors is domesticated... weak genetics start to creep in,
plant easy get pest, mold and viral diseases...


jah bless,
dLeaf

Domesticated does not cause weaknesses, poor selection does...
And you are right selection heavily centers around knowing your plants well...


MACE... you'd better re-read those definitions, landraces are inbred... The Selection process is called 'natural selection' and self pollination most certainly occurs in an open pollinated landrace population...

Inbred line: (1) a pure line usually originating by self-pollination and selection; (2) the product of inbreeding.

The earmark of a landrace is it's adaptation to the environment, both physical and human, and because of that, the stable phenotype over time.

The 'Low Numbers' issue has been adressed already...

 

[exactlywatt]

How to create a Landrace strain:

You would need hundreds of plants, a couple of decades, and an isolated open pollenation program to 'create' landrace strains, but that is not what is being discussed here...

Mace, did you catch that?

Or was this what you were asking about:

Definition of an Inbred line:

Inbred line: (1) a pure line usually originating by self-pollination and selection; (2) the product of inbreeding.

What was your point again?


Thanks for the great info Grat3fulh3ad! Cheers to the most informative
post i've read in quite awhile! :smile:

 

[REZDOG]

More than three years of concentrated in-breeding have made the Sour Diesel IBL what is is,today.

Naysayers can kiss my arse....

Cheers!

 

[GREANTHUMB]

lol^^^

 

[SmokeRings]

More than three years of concentrated in-breeding have made the Sour Diesel IBL what is is,today.

Naysayers can kiss my arse....

Cheers!

First of all, its not time that matters, its the number of generations you went through. Second, three years? Didnt it take something like 15 years to stabilize Skunk #1 and make it true breeding? 3 years indoors or out? If your breeding indoors, nuff said. If its outdoors, 3 years means you only went through 3 generations?! By the way you've got some excellent debating skills there

 

[Octavian]

More than three years of concentrated in-breeding have made the Sour Diesel IBL what is is,today.

Naysayers can kiss my arse....

Cheers!

If you breed two siblings in a single Inbred line, the resultant progeny need to be identifiable as same...otherwise it is NOT an IBL.

The test should be simple. If you can breed a pack of REZ SD ?IBL? to each other, and the offspring is Sour D...well then there is your answer.

Has anyone ever done this? Rez?

Octavian

 

[SmokeRings]

People complain that his SD F1's lack uniform growth patterns, so you dont even have to cross them off to know its not an IBL. IBL's dont just spring up that fast, hell why doesnt nirvana just go ahead and call all their shit IBL while we're at it.

p.s. "Princess" (mother of C99) was cubed, did the Bros. Grimm call that an IBL? Just because you did 3 bx's doesnt mean its an IBL. There's a reason why guys like DJ short, breeders who put hard work and time and effort into their crosses, tell you trait fixing is a hard thing to do. But rez here, through his pure genius managed to create an IBL in the previously unheard of time of just 3 years. I know Ill take a 70 watt HPS and Ill create uhh.. gee i dunno.. Trainwreck IBL. See you guys in 3 years

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

People complain that his SD F1's lack uniform growth patterns, so you dont even have to cross them off to know its not an IBL. IBL's dont just spring up that fast, hell why doesnt nirvana just go ahead and call all their shit IBL while we're at it

p.s. "Princess" (mother of C99) was cubed, did the Bros. Grimm call that an IBL? Just because you did 3 bx's doesnt mean its an IBL. There's a reason why guys like DJ short, breeders who put hard work and time and effort into their crosses, tell you trait fixing is a hard thing to do. But rez here, through his pure genius managed to create an IBL in the previously unheard of time of just 3 years. I know Ill take a 70 watt HPS and Ill create uhh.. gee i dunno.. Trainwreck IBL. See you guys in 3 years

SD F1s?? what are you talking about? Who has F1s of SD?
I'm doing a run of the IBL right now...
I'll knock some up and see how the finished buds compare to the cut, in my opinion...
The 2 v3 mom's I kept had very little variation as far as the finished product is concerned.. There were slight variations in in the growth paterns, and with the veg aroma, but the buds are all sour... and compare to the cut very favorably...
What do you mean ibls don't spring up that fast? have you even read the info in this thread?

PS The SD ibl isn't cubed, and I can pull off 9 to 12 generations in 3 years...

 

[SmokeRings]

Have you grown the clone only cut? I keep hearing mixed reviews, half the people say its the real deal and the other half say its bullshit and they find too many phenos in his SD to be called IBL. BTW I only called it F1's since we were talking about inbreeding, i know they arent F1's in the literal sense but by that I mean the stuff you buy from him. F2's would be the cross of the seed stock. Anyhow. A population sample needs to be large to guarantee the IBL status. You'd need to be looking at a minimum of around 500 plants per generation, making it close to impossible to do PROPER breeding indoors. That doesnt mean a closet hack cant get lucky by crossing a few generations, since after all the better the genetics you start with the easier it should be to create an IBL (since hopefully all the + characteristics are dominant). That plus sunlight is really needed when creating seeds, IMO indoor lighting makes for inferior seed stock, but thats IMO.

How do you figure SD wasnt cubed? Isnt that what he did? Self'd an ECSD cut and cubed it? Why does he call it SDv3 if not? Ive browsed over his forums for a bit, thats more or less what I gleaned, that plus what Ive picked up on other forums, there's a few multiple page threads debating SD's IBL status on other sites.

 

[Octavian]

SD F1s?? what are you talking about? Who has F1s of SD?
I'm doing a run of the IBL right now...
I'll knock some up and see how the finished buds compare to the cut, in my opinion...

I'll be interested to see the results. Remember, Rez himself has been quoted as saying that his IBL is for making hybrids, and will not breed true if you do sibling incrosses. IF this is true, and not just hubris, I don't really see how it could be called IBL? Proof, as you say, will be in the pudding, and I honestly do await the results.

What do you mean ibls don't spring up that fast? have you even read the info in this thread?

PS The SD ibl isn't cubed, and I can pull off 9 to 12 generations in 3 years...

12 generations in 3 years leaves very little time for actual selection. No time for a proper cure, for example, which we all know affects overall quality. It is absolutely possible to reach IBL indoors in 3 years, just improbable. IMHO

Octavian

 

[Octavian]

How do you figure SD wasnt cubed? Isnt that what he did? Self'd an ECSD cut and cubed it? Why does he call it SDv3 if not? Ive browsed over his forums for a bit, thats more or less what I gleaned, that plus what Ive picked up on other forums, there's a few multiple page threads debating SD's IBL status on other sites.

Rez has stated that he doesn't believe in cubing as a breeding strategy. I believe he stated his SD IBL was created with a minimum of backcrosses, maybe only 1. The original fathers used against the ECSD clone was Soma's NYCD, IIRC.

Chimera had a great thread on the Myth of Cubing. I'll see if I can't dig it up, I know I saved it somewhere.

EDIT: Chimera on the Myth of Cubing

Octavian

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Have you grown the clone only cut? I keep hearing mixed reviews, half the people say its the real deal and the other half say its bullshit and they find too many phenos in his SD to be called IBL.

No... I've smoked the clone only grown by a few different growers, and have had opportunity to own it, but the V3's I have are Close enough I didn't need it...

BTW I only called it F1's since we were talking about inbreeding, i know they arent F1's in the literal sense but by that I mean the stuff you buy from him. F2's would be the cross of the seed stock. Anyhow. A population sample needs to be large to guarantee the IBL status. You'd need to be looking at a minimum of around 500 plants per generation, making it close to impossible to do PROPER breeding indoors.

Well, the stament makes you sound ignorant on the subject at hand.
What ass did you pull the number 'minimum of around 500' from?

That doesnt mean a closet hack cant get lucky by crossing a few generations, since after all the better the genetics you start with the easier it should be to create an IBL (since hopefully all the + characteristics are dominant). That plus sunlight is really needed when creating seeds, IMO indoor lighting makes for inferior seed stock, but thats IMO.

He did start with a very good cut, so according to you, an IBL should be very easy.
Indoor lighting causes genes to combine in a different manner?
This thread has to be about fact... not opinion pulled from some ass somewhere...

How do you figure SD wasnt cubed? Isnt that what he did? Self'd an ECSD cut and cubed it? Why does he call it SDv3 if not? Ive browsed over his forums for a bit, thats more or less what I gleaned, that plus what Ive picked up on other forums, there's a few multiple page threads debating SD's IBL status on other sites.

Because after a couple of initial backcrosses, there were inter-generational incrosses done, which were heavily selected for SD traits...
The cubed SD statement again makes you sound ignorant of the subject at hand, and unquallified to make such statements...

 

[Capt. Crip]

Smokerings,
How do you know that each of Rez's "generations" didn't look like this?






Just curious to know how you are privy to how many plants are being grown?

 

[SmokeRings]

Smokerings,
A friend of mine grew it out, and ive also taken a look at SD threads on neutral sites. If they were guaranteed to all look like that I would have been the first person to buy a pack

I think ive heard of that myth thing, but I think the myth is a myth... allow me to explain...

cubing itself doesnt guarantee creating uniform plants, because each generation will have some variation. The myth comes from the fact that pure theory alone says by the 3rd bx its like 99% of the original genetics or something, which in reality is no guarantee. However, if in each generation you grow out the plants and pick the ones which most closely approach the idea- that is, the original plant- then you will indeed create a very tight gene pool which should more or less mirror the original plant after cubing.

Basically just bx'ing any plants 3 times wont guarantee success, but bx'ing after proper selection will take you close.

OK im confused. If rez didnt bx, how the hell is it an IBL and not a (poly)hybrid? Inbreeding alone should have taken much longer, shouldnt it? I mean take the example of skunk #1, thats definately an IBL, but didnt gain that status over night. Does anyone have rez's numbers? # of generations, # of males and females used per breeding cycle, etc? My concern is that pretty soon, everything is going to be called IBL's, and since the industry is not regulated, its important to keep people asking questions.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'll be interested to see the results. Remember, Rez himself has been quoted as saying that his IBL is for making hybrids, and will not breed true if you do sibling incrosses. IF this is true, and not just hubris, I don't really see how it could be called IBL? Proof, as you say, will be in the pudding, and I honestly do await the results.





12 generations in 3 years leaves very little time for actual selection. No time for a proper cure, for example, which we all know affects overall quality. It is absolutely possible to reach IBL indoors in 3 years, just improbable. IMHO

Octavian

Yeah... 12 would be almost impossible to select at all... I was just saying that 12 could be done mathmaticly...

8 generations could easily be done and selected for specific traits...

You meant 'not absolutely impossible' right?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I think ive heard of that myth thing, but I think the myth is a myth... allow me to explain...

cubing itself doesnt guarantee creating uniform plants, because each generation will have some variation. The myth comes from the fact that pure theory alone says by the 3rd bx its like 99% of the original genetics or something, which in reality is no guarantee. However, if in each generation you grow out the plants and pick the ones which most closely approach the idea- that is, the original plant- then you will indeed create a very tight gene pool which should more or less mirror the original plant after cubing.

Basically just bx'ing any plants 3 times wont guarantee success, but bx'ing after proper selection will take you close.

OK im confused. If rez didnt bx, how the hell is it an IBL and not a (poly)hybrid? Inbreeding alone should have taken much longer, shouldnt it? I mean take the example of skunk #1, thats definately an IBL, but didnt gain that status over night. Does anyone have rez's numbers? # of generations, # of males and females used per breeding cycle, etc? My concern is that pretty soon, everything is going to be called IBL's, and since the industry is not regulated, its important to keep people asking questions.

I already answered that

Because after a couple of initial backcrosses, there were inter-generational incrosses done, which were heavily selected for SD traits...
The cubed SD statement again makes you sound ignorant of the subject at hand, and unquallified to make such statements...

 

[Capt. Crip]

How in the f*ck did you get that quote post like that?
Those are not my words?


I see,you must have edited and put your answer in my quote...