IBL's

[SmokeRings]

Well, the stament makes you sound ignorant on the subject at hand.
What ass did you pull the number 'minimum of around 500' from?

The average cannabis plant produces how many seeds in a natural environment? If you can answer that, youll know where I pulled 500 from. By the way when commercial breeders develop seedlines for fruits and vegetables and other domesticated plants, they deal with tens, maybe even hundreds of thousands of specimen per generation. If you're going to argue that someone can form a reasonable conclusion by growing out a handful of crops and using that as a population sample, id say you're the one whos ignorant.

Indoor lighting causes genes to combine in a different manner?
This thread has to be about fact... not opinion pulled from some ass somewhere...

No, indoor lighting simply creates an inferior seed stock. The plants need a lot of energy to develop those seeds, you feed it the best you can, but the other part of the equation is they need to be getting the full spectrum of light to make the most of it. Im not saying its impossible to breed indoors, im just saying that the best seeds have and always will come from the outdoors.

Because after a couple of initial backcrosses, there were inter-generational incrosses done, which were heavily selected for SD traits...
The cubed SD statement again makes you sound ignorant of the subject at hand, and unquallified to make such statements...

Then explain this. If he used two hybrid parents (i.e. two parents that were not IBLs to begin with), how the hell did he arrive to IBL status?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

The average cannabis plant produces how many seeds in a natural environment? If you can answer that, youll know where I pulled 500 from. By the way when commercial breeders develop seedlines for fruits and vegetables and other domesticated plants, they deal with tens, maybe even hundreds of thousands of specimen per generation. If you're going to argue that someone can form a reasonable conclusion by growing out a handful of crops and using that as a population sample, id say you're the one whos ignorant.

The number of seeds a plant is capable of producing in the wild is relevant why?
Tens and hundreds of thousands, Eh? I suggest you view the episode of the discovery channel show 'Dirty Jobs' where they visit the guy that makes his living making new potato hybrids... Crossed and cloned in a tiny indoor lab...
The Documentary on distilling liquor has an interesting section in it about how they are trying to bottleneck genetic of the blue agave plant, to improve it for tequilla making...

No, indoor lighting simply creates an inferior seed stock. The plants need a lot of energy to develop those seeds, you feed it the best you can, but the other part of the equation is they need to be getting the full spectrum of light to make the most of it. Im not saying its impossible to breed indoors, im just saying that the best seeds have and always will come from the outdoors.

100% unsubstantiated opinion

Then explain this. If he used two hybrid parents (i.e. two parents that were not IBLs to begin with), how the hell did he arrive to IBL status?

Using A couple of initial backcrosses, generational incrosses, and Selection... I've said that twice, Do I need to type slower ?

 

[Guest]

WHile we are on the subject. Some people have reported that IBL's are not that vigorous. Specifically I am thinking of Deep Chunk. But when outcrossed to a landrace or IBL it gets" hybrid vigor".
Since the Sour D is a hybrid of Somas NYCD and the ECSD or some other Diesel cut, it has the Soma genes in it. You can never get them out. So wouldn't it have hybrid vigor since it wasn't a sibling cross? ( not sure if that's the correct term). Otherwise people would be talking about their crappy yields with the SD.

I am not sure what an IBL is then, can it be just growing out generations of males and females and crossing and backcrossing plants with desireable traits untill most plants have similar traits? How is that different from just breeding? Is it stability?
Is Blueberry an IBL? I know that took a long time.

Before anyone harps on DJ Short and Blueberry, I don't mind smoking a joint and not forgetting what I was talking about. Flavor is as important as getting stoned.

Peace all, keep this discussion going.

 

[Guest]

One more thing. I am thinking the only way to select males is to judge the quality of their offspring. There is some coloring and smell detectable, but otherwise how else can you judge?

I kept two blockhead males that were identical in growth pattern, but one was much stinkier than the other. I guess the only way to tell is to grow the offspring and watch them then go back and choose tha male from the two.

Finding a good male sounds like fun. Look at Breeder Steve and DJ, they just sprinkle blueberry pollen on everything.

 

[Octavian]

Then explain this. If he used two hybrid parents (i.e. two parents that were not IBLs to begin with), how the hell did he arrive to IBL status?

Hmmm. IBL's are simply two non-related varieties, crossed, then stabilized through selection in successive generations. The resultant offspring can at some point be considered IBL because they will share similar traits when breeding is finished. They don't start out related, that would be counter-intuitive...they would already be similar. The best IBL's are created from the most distantly related parents...this combination of genes that wouldn't notmally occur is what makes them special.

The end result of an IBL is closely related individuals...they don't necessarily start out that way.

Cheers!

Octavian

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

One more thing. I am thinking the only way to select males is to judge the quality of their offspring. There is some coloring and smell detectable, but otherwise how else can you judge?

I kept two blockhead males that were identical in growth pattern, but one was much stinkier than the other. I guess the only way to tell is to grow the offspring and watch them then go back and choose tha male from the two.

Finding a good male sounds like fun. Look at Breeder Steve and DJ, they just sprinkle blueberry pollen on everything.

Yeah, A male has to have the desirable trait, and the 'balls' to pass said trait to its progeny...

 

[Guest]

smokerings- have long have you been breeding? just wondering because it sounds like you read about it for 3 days and now you are acting like you know a thing or two. i've made seeds indoors and outdoors and the ones created indoors were much better. outside you have too many variables, you never know if the redneck down the way has his males spewing pollen everywhere, thereby completely fucking up your efforts.

maybe you should show us your breeding work up against head's so we know that you are actually his superior in these matters. i thought he was a damn good breeder, but i bet your shit blows his away!

anybody can come on here and talk shit but it's time to put your money where your mouth is. you have already talked shit about the sd ibl (without growing it or even knowing how it was actually bred) and a different member's cross of og kush x oger's kush (without knowing there was an s1 line called oger's kush that did produce males). maybe you should humble yourself a little bit and maybe learn a thing or two.

 

[Octavian]

WHile we are on the subject. Some people have reported that IBL's are not that vigorous. Specifically I am thinking of Deep Chunk. But when outcrossed to a landrace or IBL it gets" hybrid vigor".
Since the Sour D is a hybrid of Somas NYCD and the ECSD or some other Diesel cut, it has the Soma genes in it. You can never get them out. So wouldn't it have hybrid vigor since it wasn't a sibling cross? ( not sure if that's the correct term). Otherwise people would be talking about their crappy yields with the SD.

Hybrid vigor is not just a function of yield. It describes a condition of overall health and very strong growth characteristics that often results in increased yield, but that is not the defining characteristic. Whether Rez's intiial cross of ECSD x NYCD expressed hybrid vigor or not would depend on how closely they are related. As to that???? Who knows? They are both bagseed as I understand it, and therefore heritage uncertain.

I am not sure what an IBL is then, can it be just growing out generations of males and females and crossing and backcrossing plants with desireable traits untill most plants have similar traits? How is that different from just breeding? Is it stability?
Is Blueberry an IBL? I know that took a long time.

Blueberry is an IBL. Successfully creating an IBL requires breeding, although not all breeding results in an IBL. Make any sense? The intiial cross in any IBL could be considered breeding, but unless the further steps of selection within the line are taken and further breeding is done, IBL status will never be reached.

An IBL is a variety that has been crossed only within the line itself, no outcrossing, and has achieved stability within the line for certain traits. In other words, when an IBL is bred to itself, the offspring will consistently show those selected for traits. The offspring should be recognizable for those traits inherited through the stable parents.

If the progeny of a supposed IBL shows variation in the selected for traits, then it is NOT an IBL.

Octavian

 

[clearcutter]

How do you figure SD wasnt cubed? Isnt that what he did? Self'd an ECSD cut and cubed it?

NO. No selfing involved. He started by crossing the SD clone to NYCD before backcrossing and then inbreeding.

 

[Guest]

this is a great thread, lots of good discussion.

on Rezdogs IBL tag, if your inbreedin, doin the generations, i would say its IBL. you all rant on about what the population looks like, that that constitutes IBL status.

your line can be stable/ibl for any number of traits, growth not havin to be one of um.

i do remember Rez talkin with chimera, and Rez did state that he tossed the BX2, and went in another direction with incrosses at that point. and it really dosent matter, hes done the work in the way he seen fit, no matter if it follows the guidelines that are laid down from past breeders. its a new world, and shit that has been done in the past, is continually bein improved. nothin sayin a breeder could come across a better way to do it.

if memory serves me, Rez was lookin to keep the diesel aromas and taste, strengthen the cuts structure, and produce decent yields, which from what i read from peeps that have grown the offerin, he hit his goals. hell i dont think ive read any bad reports on the oferin.


like they say, proof is in the puddin, and the puddins good

i want to make this point one more time, anytime someone asks about a good afghani to grow, you get alot of Deep chunk comments. just about everyone will agree DC is a long worked IBL. i have three plants goin now, ive grown it a few times since i was gifted seed from Tom, its a great line as far as smoke, but not great to grow. i have three completely different plants outta three beans that made it.

they dont all grow the same, theres even variation in the stones from each plant. overall there close but not what alot of peeps think. not hearin alot of peeps doggin the DC?? outcrossin it, and you still have variation, no matter what its bred to.

on the numbers thing, id say if your goin for the long run, yeah numbers are good no doubt, but theres nothin sayin that you can not produce a decent line in your indoor OP. if you take the time to check out how breeders do there work, none of um do it the same way, theres a standard that we all argue over, but theres no set rules to produce a stable line.

a good offerin no matter how many generations have been done, is purely based on the breeders skill.

 

[Raco]

"i want to make this point one more time, anytime someone asks about a good afghani to grow, you get alot of Deep chunk comments. just about everyone will agree DC is a long worked IBL. i have three plants goin now, ive grown it a few times since i was gifted seed from Tom, its a great line as far as smoke, but not great to grow. i have three completely different plants outta three beans that made it."

MrPurple,
Do you have pics of those 3 DC´s?
I have also grown it a "few times",and IMHO,it´s a very stable strain.The plants show variations,but you KNOW they are DC (for sure)

 

[Raco]

More DC and DC F1 hybs...the pic in the middle is TomHill´s Special Mix :wink:

 

[l_d_d]

Damn,

Niiiiiiiiiiiice Raco!!

 

[SmokeRings]

smokerings- have long have you been breeding? just wondering because it sounds like you read about it for 3 days and now you are acting like you know a thing or two. i've made seeds indoors and outdoors and the ones created indoors were much better. outside you have too many variables, you never know if the redneck down the way has his males spewing pollen everywhere, thereby completely fucking up your efforts.

maybe you should show us your breeding work up against head's so we know that you are actually his superior in these matters. i thought he was a damn good breeder, but i bet your shit blows his away!

anybody can come on here and talk shit but it's time to put your money where your mouth is. you have already talked shit about the sd ibl (without growing it or even knowing how it was actually bred) and a different member's cross of og kush x oger's kush (without knowing there was an s1 line called oger's kush that did produce males). maybe you should humble yourself a little bit and maybe learn a thing or two.

If you're going to refer to that OG Kush post, quote what I said.. i asked a question! I asked him how he found an OG Kush male, I wasnt aware someone had a selfed line out there. why? that goes nicely into the second part of your question. Because I dont like ordering seeds online, particularly not in this day and age. I bought my original stock of land races about 6 years ago and ive been breeding and growing that stuff since then, occasionally swapping pollen or seeds with others, so I dont always know who's releasing what like that. I never claimed to be a professional breeder, but Ive got plenty of practical breeding experience as well as growing it. If you must know, I deliberately chose this account because its an obscure name, I can assure you however that I was well known around OG.. but times change. I admit I got things mixed up on the SD but what I do know is my friend who grew them out having issues with high numbers of males and lack of uniform growth, as well as several long threads I read regarding the IBL debate. Believe me I wouldnt argue on a point where I didnt have practical knowledge, Im well aware that theory and reality can be very different when it comes to breeding, as well as many other subjects. Sorry I came across otherwise, but lets continue with the legitimate debate on this matter.

 

[Cosmic Toker]

But a crappy ibl is still an ibl.

100% wrong....an IBL is more then just the steps you took to get there....it's about performance too.

Heres an OG quote from rez about his IBL

SD IBL was designed to produce an inferior product when crossed to itself

Ummmm Ummmm Ummmmm...lol...Ummmmm

 

[Guest]

i was around OG for a while, but once i came over here i realized i didn't know (or even know of) any of the most popular people there.

 

[Guest]

I do raco, and ill get some more today and post later when the net aint so busy, terrible dial op here.

one plant is in flower, grew very nice, and is along the lines of the originals from Tom. another has the smaller fans that i see in the cripple crk, its still in veg, extremely slow slow slow plant that would normally get culled, and one that has already been flowered, and jerked due to bananas, she also auto flowered in veg, a cut also veggin for another try i tore down as it was auto flowerin even in a bigger pot, have two cuts rootin of it for another try. very thin leafed fast growin sativa in IMO. and its one of those plants that you have to keep root space thru out or she will auto flower, maybe even bananas late in flower when she runs outta room. stretchy plant, no resemblence to any DC ive grown, thinkin it might be somethin special if i can get her right, very nice aromas off her when flowerin. these beans were done by OGbub(seconds)

another point is my OP is runnin a steady 10/14 from some sativas i had been runnin, it may have somethin todo with the bananas in flower.

these plants were sprouted on 25 june, the plant still in veg aint even 2ft tall yet, lol.

i agree its a great line, but my point is there is variation, not to the extreme but its there even with a line bred for many generations.

 

[Guest]

im not going to get in a who knows what or whose seed are ibl or whatever. i have res dsd. and have made 3 generation now. i have a thread i just started in grow diaries, where im growing all 3.gens im planning to do more to find out for myself. if you want to to know how it turns out for me it will be there. i got 10 plant gen. 3, going now and there the same as gen. 1, in looks smell. but lost my pic.s when we lost over grow. im more into proof of the pudding.

pic is of the 3 generations

 

[clearcutter]

100% wrong....an IBL is more then just the steps you took to get there....it's about performance too.

In my opinion you can have an ibl perform badly. Where does it say that for a strain to qualify for ibl status it must perform exceptional?

Heres an OG quote from rez about his IBL

Quote:
SD IBL was designed to produce an inferior product when crossed to itself


Ummmm Ummmm Ummmmm...lol...Ummmmm

Or are you just trying to troll Rez?

 

[Octavian]

In my opinion you can have an ibl perform badly. Where does it say that for a strain to qualify for ibl status it must perform exceptional?


Or are you just trying to troll Rez?

Why would ANYONE want a poor IBL? That's the point of this thread. As for trolling, you seem to fit the profile, as all Cosmic Toker posted was a quote by Rez himself. Nobody is here to "bash" anybody, just discuss a body of work and determine its true worth.

Direct quotes are hardly trolling.

Octavian