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Hollow stems, good or bad???

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
well, for many years now it has been known that the cannabis plant, among others, has an elongation response but the mechanism was not well understood.

most thought that there were specialized light receptor cells involved but no one could agree on their location on the plant.

some thought the cells were uniformly distributed all over the plant, some thought they were clustered at the nodal points, and some thought they were on the fan leaves.

the fan leaf group turned out to be correct. distributed randomly accross the surfaces of the fan leaves are these specialized cells that sense changes in light spectrum.

some sense the reflected green from adjacent plants and cause the plant to stretch upward to compete for light.

others sense the change in the red/far red ratio that occurs when leaves are occluded sub canopy. these cells send signals down the petiole to the associated node that the petiole is attached to. the node then causes the stem section above it to stretch.

so when we remove a large fully expanded fan leaf from the outer canopy we are simply keeping the fans below it fully or nearly fully lit and still sending the normal light spectrum to the receptor cells on those leaves. thus limiting elongation and creating shorter internodal lengths.

shorter internodes mean more branching and more budsites per plant mass. we can force the plant to grow mostly stem like the hemp growers do by planting at high density. but i can't sell stem in my 'hood so i want to focus my plants resources on flower development.

also, if a major fan leaf is removed you are removing the source of the signal to its accompanying node. no signal no action.

depending on the strain i will do one removal of large fans just before stretch and one just after.

never remove fan leaves emanating from the buds themselves. i just remove ones that are at the base of stem sections that are clear of flower sites. that is that have some stem above them before the bud. it is like putting the brakes on that stem sections elongation.

i think we have officially gotten to the point of threadjacking now so i'll quit.
 

Ravenboy

Member
well, for many years now it has been known that the cannabis plant, among others, has an elongation response but the mechanism was not well understood.

most thought that there were specialized light receptor cells involved but no one could agree on their location on the plant.

some thought the cells were uniformly distributed all over the plant, some thought they were clustered at the nodal points, and some thought they were on the fan leaves.

the fan leaf group turned out to be correct. distributed randomly accross the surfaces of the fan leaves are these specialized cells that sense changes in light spectrum.

some sense the reflected green from adjacent plants and cause the plant to stretch upward to compete for light.

others sense the change in the red/far red ratio that occurs when leaves are occluded sub canopy. these cells send signals down the petiole to the associated node that the petiole is attached to. the node then causes the stem section above it to stretch.

so when we remove a large fully expanded fan leaf from the outer canopy we are simply keeping the fans below it fully or nearly fully lit and still sending the normal light spectrum to the receptor cells on those leaves. thus limiting elongation and creating shorter internodal lengths.

shorter internodes mean more branching and more budsites per plant mass. we can force the plant to grow mostly stem like the hemp growers do by planting at high density. but i can't sell stem in my 'hood so i want to focus my plants resources on flower development.

also, if a major fan leaf is removed you are removing the source of the signal to its accompanying node. no signal no action.

depending on the strain i will do one removal of large fans just before stretch and one just after.

never remove fan leaves emanating from the buds themselves. i just remove ones that are at the base of stem sections that are clear of flower sites. that is that have some stem above them before the bud. it is like putting the brakes on that stem sections elongation.

i think we have officially gotten to the point of threadjacking now so i'll quit.

wow. thanks

i had noticed this long ago, that they stretch when crowded and wondered how they know

i don't know how i never found out about this.... but i took several long breaks during my 40 odd years of growing and most of that time wasn't tuned in to grow forums. a lot of the time there weren't ANY forums - there wasn't any internet

but because i didn't know HOW they knew they were crowded, all i could do is have them not touching, then stretch went way down. I guess its a good thing LED panels usually have so little green, less to reflect.

we always said green is reflected - the plants aren't using it so they don't need it - but they DO need it, and they ARE using it. but not for anything we LIKE (stretch)
i remember the ONE grow i used a cheap incandescent green bulb lights out to work in the grow room, every plant harmed,
maybe green light CAN make them hermit (could have been something else though i never had a =n even that i could say was hit, they were clones, next run, it didn't happen, i didn't use the light
(only one data point, but "i'm just saying;"


I didn't know defoliation had such a big effect on stretch

i am SO happy i moved to this forum
and D9, you are an amazing asset to our community.
 

Ravenboy

Member
"In my case perhaps exacerbated by the sink/source relationship being altered by removing large fully developed fan leaves at strategic points in growth, even further reducing carbon reserves.

but i do this to reduce the elongation that usually accompanies rapid growth and increase ramification and therefore number of bud sites."

What are your findings/technique to reduce stretch and get more/tigher bud sites when you are hitting the sweet spot of accelerated growth?

If you dont mind elaborating on fan leaf removel?

we asked about the same question in the same minute!!
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
"stoned" i'm shocked and surprised!

the above is a rather cursory brief interpretation for a lot more on the subject try google scholar "cannabis elongation response red/far red ratio"

should be enough to keep you busy for a year or two.
 

GastroGrower

Active member
One of the plants I had mentioned early appears to have filled in the stem a bit. I have cut the nutrient feed a bit as a whole while increasing CalMag by 1 ml/gal. I'll be watching to see if there is any noticeable difference this week or next in the plant's stretch and structure.
 

Dankwolf

Active member
Far red

Far red

"stoned" i'm shocked and surprised!

the above is a rather cursory brief interpretation for a lot more on the subject try google scholar "cannabis elongation response red/far red ratio"

should be enough to keep you busy for a year or two.

Just started getting into it this run . spent the last few months reading up . lots to learn as far as far red goes thats for sure just started playing this round 13.25 on 10.75 off far red 680-730 last 15 min of lights on and 15 after looking promising so far .
 

Ravenboy

Member
"stoned" i'm shocked and surprised!

the above is a rather cursory brief interpretation for a lot more on the subject try google scholar "cannabis elongation response red/far red ratio"


should be enough to keep you busy for a year or two.

[insert additional insincere stoner apology for off topic post here]

0hhh thank you

its my bane, not being able to find enough things to fill my new spare time

i used to occupy myself otherwise..... when hand watering I had a lot less time.... now I have time to do my errands and chores while its daytime in the tents, so have tons of free time when the lights are off

and as a virgo ( and allegedly we are supposed LOVE compulsive behavior) the management of 8 orphan PPKs ( no central res or mix res) has turned out to be WAY more a compulsive thang than hempies ever were, and i even get to add anxiety about water leaks to get compulsive over!!! BUT I NOW HAVE MORE FREE TIME, SO I HAVE TIME TO FRET ABOUT BEING COMPULSIVE ABOUT IT TOO

VIRGO HEAVEN.... and i am a DOUBLE virgo.

though i would point out that everybody says virgos are skeptical... accordingly, i don't have to be compulsive about my belief in astrology ... or even believe in it at all.

and in addition to providing the new free time (the PPK system), AND my astrological lift you offer a way to fill all this free time !

as we say down here

Saludos, Maestro!!
 
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Ravenboy

Member


¡Ay, caramba!

¡Gracias, me amable!

i live in argentina, but i am an expat and still cant figure out how to enter an upside down exclamation mark because i use the Mac keyboard sold in the usa

the upside down question mark is easy, but the exclamation mark must have a different keyboard combination

you can tell the lights are off in the tent now, by these posts

i copy and paste it.... thats very virgo
 

Loc Dog

Hobbies include "drinkin', smokin' weed, and all k
Veteran
A lot of great info!!! The plants I have with hollow stems were packed in really tight. A 400 watt MH bulb in 5 X 5 tent.

Is the far red just for veg, or used at beginning of flower. Thought I heard about using it to produce buds faster.
 

Dankwolf

Active member
That thread i posted has alot of good info on far red . it has alot of uses just depends on what you want .
 

Phaeton

Speed of Dark
Veteran
"stoned" i'm shocked and surprised!

the above is a rather cursory brief interpretation for a lot more on the subject try google scholar "cannabis elongation response red/far red ratio"

should be enough to keep you busy for a year or two.

I have not noticed you posting as much as in the past.
Green light was brought up so I though I would throw in some confusion adding more years of study.

Light charts show green light usage during average intensity full spectrum light at a little over 12%, about one green photon out of every seven photons absorbed is green. Red and blue get the other 80%, the 2% trigger wavelengths are being ignored.

Average is 50% of maximum Daily Light Integral, about 800 umol.
Bump the intensity up to 95% of max DLI and green light usage goes up dramatically, fully half the absorbed photons out of the full spectrum light are green.
I forget the link now but it took some amount of time to wrap my head around how that one works. Similar reasons cause blood to be red in arteries and blue in veins.

Not an attempt to hijack the thread, these subjects have their own threads.

I am posting my opinion on contested items and procedures.
I feel the greater the controversy the less it matters.
Really.
Let us take 24/0 versus 20/4. If the time was the deciding factor the inputs would not be 50/50 for and against, there would be a consensus.
Trimming the end of fan leaves on clones, again, if it mattered the success rate would not be grower dependent.

The stem question appears to have anecdotal evidence on both sides that seem equivalent.
The garden has almost exclusively tall plants and it is rare for me to cut a smaller plant. Whether or not the stems are hollow depends on size and load on the stem in the limited experience I have.
All plants over a meter in height have had solid main trunks, this is since 2001. Before then the plants were smaller and hollow was more common.
No records were kept so the potency of the plants in relation to their stems is unknown. These smaller plants were from a grower in the Matanuska Valley outside of Wasilla. The strain was changed to larger plants with hollow midsections of branches and pithy trunks and tips.
All strains in the garden are similar in this respect even though the Cookies Kush is quite a bit more powerful than the Pineapple Express 2 and the Euforia falls in between. These are my three main strains.

When hanging buds after triming the stems over 1/4" have hollow stems the alligator clips have one end inside. Smaller stems are not hollow and the alligator clips go around the whole stem. Larger stems are also not hollow and the alligator clips attach to the bud bases themselves.

Tracking when and how large the stems get before becoming pithy or hollow may reveal growth and nutrient patterns showing what changes enhance rates of growth. We will never know until plants are monitored and records are kept.
 
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Tonygreen

Well-known member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Look what ya gone and did Loc lol. I told ya boost your calcium in veg. :)

GG4 is a calcium HOG. On top of that she grows super fast especially in early flower.
As Foothill mentioned and my own experiences can back up once you are behind in calcium on a big plant it almost impossible to get back to optimal levels, well I found a way, prune the hell out of it and let it veg all over.

That pic that everyone sees from the 70's paper that says "drug type" was probably grown in a calcium poor soil and perhaps since it was drug type it was more of a calcium hog ha!

All that light stuff is interesting but just feed more calcium in veg so they are stocked up good before flower and see what happens...
 

Loc Dog

Hobbies include "drinkin', smokin' weed, and all k
Veteran
Look what ya gone and did Loc lol. I told ya boost your calcium in veg. :)

GG4 is a calcium HOG. On top of that she grows super fast especially in early flower.
As Foothill mentioned and my own experiences can back up once you are behind in calcium on a big plant it almost impossible to get back to optimal levels, well I found a way, prune the hell out of it and let it veg all over.

That pic that everyone sees from the 70's paper that says "drug type" was probably grown in a calcium poor soil and perhaps since it was drug type it was more of a calcium hog ha!

All that light stuff is interesting but just feed more calcium in veg so they are stocked up good before flower and see what happens...

I think as Phaeton or Delta9 said, that overcrowding will cause plants to stretch, causing hollow stems. I had them in aeroponics too long and over crowded, then into hydro, over crowded, heavily. Was not ready to move them to a flower tent.

I am adding cal/mag to current veg plants, and will compare to current grow, now 2 weeks into flower. And best early flower set I have had yet.

These plants are drinking heavily!!!! Close to quart a day, per plant.

I will do post mortem on each showing main stalk and some branches of current and Cal/Mag. Just wondering why it does not happen in coco, since some swear coco is hydro. I feed complete GH Flora Series nutrients. No sign of problems in leaves.
 

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