Hollow stems, good or bad???

[Dankwolf]

Could be . but none the less i through out the solid stem plants that i gave a try and keep the hollow stem varieties that i ran . maybe i like inbalanced plants i dont why they are hollow i just know i have never like strains that i have ran that were pith filled nor did any one that sampled them .

 

[Dankwolf]

I am not saying hollow is perfection . all i am saying is me and the people around me prefered hollow stem vs pith philled even the people that did not know the difference still choose hollow stem smoke oblivious to the differnce in stem

 

[caterpillar710]

Just read those articles avenger posted you're not meeting genetic potential imagine if you were

 

[Dankwolf]

So what do you think i am missing ? If you dont mind i will read just dont have time now .

 

[mowood3479]

Hey cat and foothill,
I'm an indoor coco grower drain to waste... Once they start taking off and growing fast the tips are mostly all hollow.. By the time I harvest everything has filled in and is no longer hollow... But there is a point in early flower where most all the growing tips are hollow.
Anyway can u recommend a product to add the the resevoir or to foliar spray that will add more ca..
I've got a cal/mag product that is calcium nitrate and mag/sulphur.. But I've seen talk in a few outdoor threads of different things that have ca
(If that's the likeliest cause)?

 

[Dankwolf]

I looked at the articles and they really did not pertane to cannabis as far i could see/read . it seemes to be explaing a hollow stem is due to accelerated growth and if plant was in low light and or toped it would have more pith i dont see were it says pith is good other then it can be used by the plant in low light conditions .i may have miss understod but to me it proved my side if anything that hallow means accelerated growth and i am not sure but i dont belive broccoli is in any way really a good plant to use in referance to cannabis. Correct me if i am wrong.

 

[Dankwolf]

Full Definition of pith

a : a usually continuous central strand of spongy tissue in the stems of most vascular plants that probably functions chiefly in storage
b : any of various loose spongy plant tissues that resemble true pith
c : the soft or spongy interior of a part of the body

 

[Avenger]

I looked at the articles and they really did not pertane to cannabis as far i could see/read . it seemes to be explaing a hollow stem is due to accelerated growth and if plant was in low light and or toped it would have more pith i dont see were it says pith is good other then it can be used by the plant in low light conditions .i may have miss understod but to me it proved my side if anything that hallow means accelerated growth and i am not sure but i dont belive broccoli is in any way really a good plant to use in referance to cannabis. Correct me if i am wrong.

Is cannabis not a " Herbaceous, Dicotyledonous Plant"?.....and the brocolli papers i posted are more to show that boron deficiency is not really the main causal factor

Pith is the plants storage organ for photosynthates, when you see hollow stems, the pith has been autolysed because the plants growth rate has exceeded its own capability to fix carbon needed to build new tissue, from the atmosphere .

In other words there is an imbalance between the photosynthate source tissue (fully expanded fan leaves) and the photosynthate sink tissue (apical growth and/or flowers). Or some other factor limiting carbon dioxide assimilation.

The fact that a plant can translocate the photosynthates from the pith to other more important sink tissue can be considered a desirable trait in a plant.

However, imho, the fact that a plant has to resort to this is not a desirable trait in a grow.

 

[Ravenboy]

Is cannabis not a " Herbaceous, Dicotyledonous Plant"?.....and the brocolli papers i posted are more to show that boron deficiency is not really the main causal factor

Pith is the plants storage organ for photosynthates, when you see hollow stems, the pith has been autolysed because the plants growth rate has exceeded its own capability to fix carbon needed to build new tissue, from the atmosphere .

In other words there is an imbalance between the photosynthate source tissue (fully expanded fan leaves) and the photosynthate sink tissue (apical growth and/or flowers). Or some other factor limiting carbon dioxide assimilation.

The fact that a plant can translocate the photosynthates from the pith to other more important sink tissue can be considered a desirable trait in a plant.

However, imho, the fact that a plant has to resort to this is not a desirable trait in a grow.

what a well written post, thanks!!

i just switched to PPK, and today, in the first day of flower, i was noticing how hollow the stems were, in all the plants. i wasn't worried about it because they are so healthy, and here it is... they grew three inches just last night

so this explains why hollow i think. i hadn't seen it all thru the tent before, only here and there before this grow. and iI have have NEVER seen growth rates like this in any of my tents in the past.

i noticed it because in a place i done super cropping, i didn't know it when i did it but since it was hollow i really split it bad over a week ago. . yesterday, i noticed the gaping hole in a the very healthy stem, its the the fastest growing LST top, totally healthy as the plants tissues had been reforming around the still open wound.

i could see how hollow the stem was. moderate sized stem, thick walls, 1/4" hollow space inside, total rocking it with the growth despite having what looks like should have been fatal to that top. I taped it up, and expect all to be ok with it.

I'm ok with it. the stems are PLENTY strong as of right now.

and I'm a believer...

 

[Dankwolf]

I understand your point of view and the science behind it . but i dont think pith filed staks are best by any means and i am postive 99% it genitic related . in 14+ years i have never had a strain that was pith filled top to bottom be a keeper . if you like plants with pith filled stalks right on to each there own . grow and smoke what works for you and your set up .

 

[Loc Dog]

I understand your point of view and the science behind it . but i dont think pith filed staks are best by any means and i am postive 99% it genitic related . in 14+ years i have never had a strain that was pith filled top to bottom be a keeper . if you like plants with pith filled stalks right on to each there own . grow and smoke what works for you and your set up .

What is odd to me, and is the reason I started this thread, is the Gorilla Glue #4, a clone only strain, in coco is very pithy. It has won 3 or 4 awards at high times events, and has been tested up to 31% THC. I became sick of coco, and went back to the same basic flood and drain I had used with auto flowers years ago. I found a grower that grew hydro, and he said only difference was to pump up the feed from 600 PPM max for coco, to 1000 - 1100 PPM for hydro. The plants grew so fast that I was not ready, topped them and went to clone them to find they were almost hollow.

Had the same problem supercropping/SCROG'ing, where the stem broke open from being hollow. The guys on GG4 thread swear I need more calcium, so feeding the new cuts with additional cal/mag. Will report back here in a few weeks, either way.

 

[Dankwolf]

Vary interested in the results. Nice thread choice even if a little heated . are you going to note differences from this run to next ?

 

[Ravenboy]

I understand your point of view and the science behind it . but i dont think pith filed staks are best by any means and i am postive 99% it genitic related . in 14+ years i have never had a strain that was pith filled top to bottom be a keeper . if you like plants with pith filled stalks right on to each there own . grow and smoke what works for you and your set up .

In my admittedly limited experience its clear its not genetic - not for my one data point anyway, so i am leaning in the environmental direction as to cause

i am running some of the same strains active hydro now, that i always got pith filled stems in hempy buckets - NEVER had a hollow stem ever. with these. watered once a day. always Pith.

and are hollow all the way to the tips now in a PPK - healthy, growing so fast i am moving the panels up every day.

but i was very surprised with the change.

so i am NOT 99 percent certain its genetics.

let me rephrase. we might not be in disagreement

maybe its BOTH. fast growing plants that CANT convert to hollow stem because of genetics

maybe your setup is finely tuned, perfect, so plants just ROCKET along, and the ones that cant convert so well to hollow stems suffer.

and maybe THATS genetic

so .... your comment would not be at odds with my experience when i look at it that way.

and the other poster DID say that being able to easily convert back and forth from hollow to pith is a desirable genetic trait.

 

[Dankwolf]

In my admittedly limited experience its clear its not genetic - not for my one data point anyway, so i am leaning in the environmental direction as to cause

i am running some of the same strains active hydro now, that i always got pith filled stems in hempy buckets - NEVER had a hollow stem ever. with these. watered once a day. always Pith.

and are hollow all the way to the tips now in a PPK - healthy, growing so fast i am moving the panels up every day.

but i was very surprised with the change.

so i am NOT 99 percent certain its genetics.

let me rephrase. we might not be in disagreement

maybe its BOTH. fast growing plants that CANT convert to hollow stem because of genetics

maybe your setup is finely tuned, perfect, so plants just ROCKET along, and the ones that cant convert so well to hollow stems suffer.

and maybe THATS genetic

so .... your comment would not be at odds with my experience when i look at it that way.

and the other poster DID say that being able to easily convert back and forth from hollow to pith is a desirable genetic trait.

That is exactly what i am saying . some strains just cant hit that high gear if you know what i mean and it sounds like you do . some when dialed can go hollow and like the cotton candy i am curently growing indoor . i am getting 2 to 3 inches of new growth a day (2 gallon soiless amended to peticular plants needs ). Also the older parts of stem (about 14-20 days old starts to gain pith) . to me hollow stem on uper 2/3 of plant is condition/sing of accelerated growth and a vary happy plant . 1st picture this plant shown is 2 weeks old
Second pic is a week further along same plant hand watered and is hollow on top 2/3 of plant .

 

[caterpillar710]

You can make any plant have solid stems. No plant wants to have hollow stems it's against plant physiology

 

[Ravenboy]

Just read those articles avenger posted you're not meeting genetic potential imagine if you were

well, he said its natural for under circumstances for fast growth to cause hollow stems

and he offered an opinion that having a plant that can do it is a good thing genetically.


and he offered an opinion that maybe its not a good thing for a GROW.

another opinion

my opinion is that is FANTASTIC for a grow, its a natural thing, it means the plant is doing EVERYTHING it can do (including use the pith) to grow fast.

if my hollow stem plant starts to suffer i will ask it to please grow slower

and if it doesn't improve, I will turn off some side lighting (i am running 1000w actual draw of LED in that tent) and dial down the light a little

if all of the stuff avenger posted is true i am ecstatic about having my hollow stems. though I might have to use yo-yo hangers to keep the buds off the floor - a minor hassle given that my yields should be at least double under PPK than i got with hempies.

so.... hollow stems bad? i don't think so

 

[delta9nxs]

Is cannabis not a " Herbaceous, Dicotyledonous Plant"?.....and the brocolli papers i posted are more to show that boron deficiency is not really the main causal factor

Pith is the plants storage organ for photosynthates, when you see hollow stems, the pith has been autolysed because the plants growth rate has exceeded its own capability to fix carbon needed to build new tissue, from the atmosphere .

In other words there is an imbalance between the photosynthate source tissue (fully expanded fan leaves) and the photosynthate sink tissue (apical growth and/or flowers). Or some other factor limiting carbon dioxide assimilation.

The fact that a plant can translocate the photosynthates from the pith to other more important sink tissue can be considered a desirable trait in a plant.

However, imho, the fact that a plant has to resort to this is not a desirable trait in a grow.

what a great find! thank you! this is taken from the final discussions on this paper:

"pith autolysis results when the programmed growth rate of a plant exceeds its ability to fix the carbon to support that growth, so that it digests its own pith's carbon reserves in that effort. one consequence of this principle is that pith autolysis should be expected to increase when the growth rate is stimulated and decrease when it is retarded."

in response to the op's question i think hollow stems are a good thing and an indication of a fast growing plant.

also in my case perhaps exacerbated by the sink/source relationship being altered by removing large fully developed fan leaves at strategic points in growth, even further reducing carbon reserves.

but i do this to reduce the elongation that usually accompanies rapid growth and increase ramification and therefore number of bud sites.

so for me hollow stems are good. it just means that my environment and lighting are good and that i'm getting a good growth rate.

 

[Ravenboy]

You can make any plant have solid stems. No plant wants to have hollow stems it's against plant physiology

gee you quoted avenger in a recent post, and you are in agreement then,

but you say this "hollow stems it's against plant physiology"

avenger said its PART of the plant physiology

i think of it now as a part of the food storage and delivery system

why would the pantry being FULL all the time be good?

and maybe you can't make any plant have hollow stems - that part is probably genetic at least to some degree

and even if you could its a sign that the plant probably is growing as fast as it can

why would it be against the plants physiology?

maybe if anything goes wrong while the 'pantry is empty', bad things could happen - so what? clearly we harvest plants with hollow stems all the time, i don't think there is much risk.

 

[Ravenboy]

what a great find! thank you! this is taken from the final discussions on this paper:

"pith autolysis results when the programmed growth rate of a plant exceeds its ability to fix the carbon to support that growth, so that it digests its own pith's carbon reserves in that effort. one consequence of this principle is that pith autolysis should be expected to increase when the growth rate is stimulated and decrease when it is retarded."

in response to the op's question i think hollow stems are a good thing and an indication of a fast growing plant.

also in my case perhaps exacerbated by the sink/source relationship being altered by removing large fully developed fan leaves at strategic points in growth, even further reducing carbon reserves.

but i do this to reduce the elongation that usually accompanies rapid growth and increase ramification and therefore number of bud sites.

so for me hollow stems are good. it just means that my environment and lighting are good and that i'm getting a good growth rate.

well written

it had occurred to me as well. i am a big time leaf puller. I am going to tone it down now that I am using PPKS and can SEE the growth rate close up.

still, i will definitely trim to increase penetration. just not so the lower larf gets much. doesn't help way down there so much anyway


sorry about this off topic question:
can you explain how defoliation slows elongation, and which fan leaves to pull? (is it low fans - upper fans- the big fans. every other fan? )whats the methodology and WHEN is it applied?

 

[Dankwolf]

Delta9nxs

Delta9nxs

"In my case perhaps exacerbated by the sink/source relationship being altered by removing large fully developed fan leaves at strategic points in growth, even further reducing carbon reserves.

but i do this to reduce the elongation that usually accompanies rapid growth and increase ramification and therefore number of bud sites."

What are your findings/technique to reduce stretch and get more/tigher bud sites when you are hitting the sweet spot of accelerated growth?

If you dont mind elaborating on fan leaf removel?