Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[EclipseFour20]

THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS WRONG....my calculations were for 7 gallon bucket...STAY WITH 3.3 GRAMS PER GALLON: After some research...I upped the amount to 23 grams per gallon. The 3.3 gram rate I initially used was the lowest amount of active ingredient I thought was effective to kill Root Aphids (via contact), but after much research and testing--I found 100% success at 23 grams per gallon. That is right, 100% success.

Acephate is a systemic and is effective for 28 days (one moon cycle)--so if you are going to repeat, maybe 14 days or so would be a good interval--not weekly. That said, if I were in flower--I would only treat the plant if you have evidence of RAs...one of the easiest ways to see, is water the plant (assuming you are soil) and in about 3-5 minutes, examine the soil surface. I have treated plants in flower (do not treat if you are less than 5 weeks from harvest) and have obtained excellent results--like now you see em....now you don't.

Orthene dunks--I do a few while in veg (babies & teens too), one more on flip day, and around day 21 in flower--I flush and top dress--if I see lil critters, then the plants get the only Orthene treatment in flower. The dunks in veg and flip day are preventive measures to insure NO ROOT APHIDS, any dunks in flower is to catch the ones that slipped by, if any. My strains require 65-80 flower and my rationale is: on harvest day there probably is no detectable amounts of Orthene on any of my flowers.

Imid is something that I once used...but no mas. The half-life of this particular poison is extremely long...hundreds of days--while the half-life of Acephate is 0-5 DAYS. Since Imid results are less than stellar--or hit and miss for many, I see no benefit of putting this poison and all its residual components on my flowers.

BTW...long dunks is the key--not short ones!

 

[Granger2]

If I'm not mistaken, that 5 day halflife means in the soil, not in the plant. Orthene is probably the worst smelling chemical I've ever encountered. -granger

 

[EclipseFour20]

If I'm not mistaken, that 5 day halflife means in the soil, not in the plant. Orthene is probably the worst smelling chemical I've ever encountered. -granger

Plant half-life is about 5-10 days. Best thing is Acephate has very little movement within the plant (like from leaf to bud--unlike Imid!). Yeah, Orthene can be awful smelling, but the smell is gone by the time you clean up your mess--and smoke a fatty celebrating the demise of your Root Aphids.

Source: http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/acephate.pdf

Soil Metabolism
Acephate is rapidly degraded in soil by microorganisms under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions. The half-life of acephate ranged from 0.5 to 3 days. The soil types in this experiment included loamy sand, sandy clay, silty clay loam, loam, and clay (Chevron, 1972e and 1972f). Acephate is readily metabolized in the soil under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions. The same products are formed in both of these conditions. The metabolites formed are O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate (methamidophos) and O-methyl acetylphosphoramidate (RE 18,420) (Chevron, 1972g and #1972h).

According to EPA, 1987, acephate dissipates rapidly with half-lives of less than 3 and 6 days in aerobic and anaerobic soils, respectively. The major metabolite was found to be carbon dioxide in both types of soil. The leaching data included a soil thin-layer chromatography and a soil column study. The data indicates that acephate is mobile in most soils; however, aged acephate residues are immobile in sandy loam soil. Most of the applied acephate and the degradate methamidophos degrade to immobile compounds in 20 days (EPA, 1987).

Mobility
Soil:
A study was conducted to test the mobility of acephate in soil. Soil samples were sprayed with acephate at 9 lbs./acre and allowed to age, undisturbed except for watering for 21 weeks in a greenhouse. At the end of this period, the soil contained 0.05 ppm or less of acephate. There was no methamidophos detected. The amount of acephate found was about 0.5% of the applied dose. This remaining acephate was entirely leachable with the equivalent of 10 inches of rain. There was no bound acephate or methamidophos present in the soil (Chevron, #54161).

Plant Metabolism
Acephate is readily degraded by plants. This is evident in studies done on both field sprayed crops and by using 14C-labeled acephate in the greenhouse. The half-life is approximately 5 to 10 days. Only about 5 to 10% of acephate degrades to methamidophos (O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate). The rest of the acephate degrades to innocuous salts. No metabolites of toxicological concern have been observed or suspected, except for methamidophos. Possible degradation products of acephate and methamidophos are those in which the P—N, P—O, and/or P—S bonds are broken yielding P—OH acids. Conversion of any of these bonds to the P—OH group is sufficient to detoxify these compounds completely (Chevron, #54161).

Acephate is adsorbed onto leaf surfaces. Washing of the field treated broccoli, lettuce, and cotton leaves with water removed no more than 5% of the acephate residues. Translocation studies using 14C-labeled acephate show that there is only slight movement of chemical from the treated leaf to other parts of the plant, including roots and tubers. Field studies with potatoes and sugar beets have shown this (Chevron, #54161).

 

[bad gas]

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested diatomaceous earth[NAPA PN#8822], and Retrogrow said it wouldn't work.

I use napa floor dry instead of perlite with a top dress of the same. Got rid of gnats this way. I understand RAs are worse.

Could someone expand on why this preventative approach won't work for all root pests?

Thanks for your time. bg

 

[EclipseFour20]

BTW...at 3.3 grams (1 teaspoon) per gallon is equivalent to about 3/4 pound of Acephate per acre.

 

[wingdings]

These bastards have made growing pure sativas impossible. I hope to get back to that if this run works well with the new lineup. I will be using dunks as late as week 7 with pure sativas would be great to have healthy plants again.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Just so everyone knows, my earlier post misstated the amount of Orthene to use per gallon. I made the corrections...the correct rate is 3.3 grams...or 1 teaspoon per gallon. The rate I mistakenly referred to was for 7 gallon batch which is 23 grams.

MY BAD! Sorry.

 

[yerboyblue]

I haven't checked this thread in a few weeks, and last time didn't really see any info on Orthene (Acephate) last time, thanks Eclipse for some info on it. Hopefully I can help a bit too.
I've realized on this last cycle that I had these root aphid f***s and I got pointed in the direction of Acephate. It is REALLY good for killing these root aphids. I would say it is better than Imid because like Eclipse said, the half life is waaay shorter.
I've used this stuff now. It's nasty so do not over apply. I did two apps within 10 days and almost killed my plants in the ones I was testing. The exact amounts to mix can be confusing. The label (I was using Orthene 97) said 1oz for 25 gallons, plus most of the directions are for foliar spray which really doesn't apply for us. This is too much.
My friend suggested 3/4oz of the powder/crystals (using a liquid measuring nutrient cup) per 25 gallons but to NOT mix it with any nutrients. I used the 3/4 on 30 gallons with no burning. One room actually took off like they were saying thanks.
On other plants I used 1oz of the crystals (measured in the liquid measure cup) for the 25 gallons, and had some leaf burn.
So bottom line, if you get ahold of this stuff, wear a mask measuring it out and hold your breath (open the can outside too), do 3/4oz (liquid measure cup, u kno, the same thing u measure nutes in) for every 30 gallons of water, and do not mix it with nutrient, WATER ONLY. Next time you water after that, give them some beneficial micros.
I would also like to add to this thread that these chemical treatments aren't exactly a one time solve everything. Personally, I will be following up the acephate treatment with Botaniguard and beneficial nematodes. Google integrated pest management.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Good luck yerboy! 3.3 grams per gallon--which is equal to 1 teaspon (equiv to 3/4 pound of Acephate per acre--a very very very safe dosage).

If one thinks about it, ROOTS are what Root Aphids destroy. So it makes 100% perfect sense that one must rebuild the roots after any treatment (imid, acephate, met...).

That is why my plants receive plenty of bacteria and enzymes (Hygrozyme) to help the roots recover and become "winners".

 

[yerboyblue]

Eclipse what concentration of Orthene were you running? I was using orthene 97, 97% acephate, shit burnt my plants at about 2 tsp on 30 gallons of water! The 1 tsp definitely killed the bugs, too bad the damage was already done.

 

[EclipseFour20]

I use this one....

Per manufacturer:

"Orthene Turf, Tree & Ornamental Spray is a broad spectrum systemic insecticide that controls many different species of both sucking and chewing insect pests on a wide range of ornamental plants. It can also be used as an outside perimeter spray for nuisance pests such as wasps, ants, cockroaches, crickets, earwigs, and pillbugs. As a turf spray for caterpillars, fleas and others.


Active Ingredients: Acephate -- 97.4%

Rate : 2/3 teaspoon per gallon of water. or 4 - 16 oz / Acre (One can .733 lb makes 147 gallons)


But in my situation, my environment, my particular strain of Root Aphids...the full teaspoon did the job--whereas, 1/2, 2/3 rates always left straggler RAs. I run 3 & 5 gallon containers (custom "soilless mix") and I dunk em in a combo of Riptide + Orthene for 20 minutes. It is important that the 100% of the container and soil is submerged--hence I will let 1-2 inches of the plant to be dunked as well. Afterwards no flushing, no rinsing, no nothing....

DO NOT SPRAY!...Soil drenches only!

Rationale on quantity....at 3.3 grams per gallon:

1 can of Orthene is about 3/4 pound
100 gallons of water + 1 can of Orthene will service 1 acre (at 3/4 per pound, per acre)
1 pound = 454 grams and 3/4 pound = 340.5 grams

Therefor...the equivalent rate for 3/4 pound per acre are as follows:
340.5 grams per 100 gallons of water
34.05 grams per 10 gallons
3.4 grams per gallon
So...I round down to 3.3 grams.

 

[yerboyblue]

Huh, that's the same stuff just a different label. I don't root soak, I just water in. I'm running 15 gallon pots. My veg room containers are smaller, but I had the leaves burn at higher doses. I know for a fact that the labeling states 1oz for 25gal water though. I had leaf burn at this rate. Maybe your strain is more resistant or something.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Huh, that's the same stuff just a different label. I don't root soak, I just water in. I'm running 15 gallon pots. My veg room containers are smaller, but I had the leaves burn at higher doses. I know for a fact that the labeling states 1oz for 25gal water though. I had leaf burn at this rate. Maybe your strain is more resistant or something.

We might be talking about different products....check out the "small volume spray" rates on top of page 3 (below pdf)....they have em for 1/4 lb to 1 pound. According to that table, 1 oz for 25 gallons is equal to 1/4 pound per acre...or 1/3 teaspoon (maybe 1 gram or so) per gallon.

http://www.entomology.umn.edu/cues/mnla/orthene.pdf

 

[yerboyblue]

Ya that seems more like what I have. I know I don't have to use much at all. I have to hold my breath to open the can or it is sketchy lol. Mine has a red and orange label with big old caution labels on it haha

 

[LilMissPuffIt]

Im pretty sure I killed a bunch of plants with orthene. I don't remember how much I used but they were fried. I'll have to try the tsp/gal on a few plants laying just for future reference.

I battled root aphids for a year before killing all my plants and starting over from seed. I have kept my genetics quarantined at another spot where my bf and I are treating and "cloning" them out of the genetics.

Some things that we have been using at a friends grow (the source lol) that seem to be working "for control" in the flowering room are diping rooted clones in kontos when we plant into containers. Then merit75 on the second watering aftering planting (around two weeks veg right before we flip to flower). Then teas to try to rebuild the soil life.

Last run at that grow we went with kontos and merit later in veg when we noticed the met52 wasnt working but the damage had been done at that point I think. We ended up with only 1lb/light but the quality was pretty decent.

All mom plants at that grow are being hit every two weeks with a rotatation of kontos and merit. Gonna have to try the orthene at tsp/gal like eclipse420 suggested so we can add it to the rotation.

I'll try to get pictures up of the room we've been using the kontos dip with.

I'm thinking we are starting to get a grasp on a good preventative control for the circumstances. Thanks to all those who shared there experiences.

 

[yerboyblue]

MissPuffIt what is kontos? Is that like a pyrethrum mix or something?

This time around I have been giving all my plants in veg lots of BotaniGuard after my Orthene treatment, and will be doing so in the flower room as well, and also add nematodes. If my leaves start dropping/becoming deficient 2 or 3 weeks into flower again, I will know what's up. However my friends, the ones that spread these damn things to me, have had success in managing them with just Orthene, but they do become noticable a few weeks later. Chemical treatments aren't always 100% effective and the bugs can become resistant to them, this is why I will be using biological controls like BotaniGuard as well. It is spendy stuff tho.

 

[LilMissPuffIt]

This is taken from the rosemania website marketing literature.

Kontos is a new systemic insecticide that is both xylem and phloem active, meaning the active ingredient moves upward and downward in treated plants, according to Dr. Richard Lindquist, OHP senior technical manager. “Kontos can be applied as a foliar spray or drench and controls a number of major sucking insect and mite pests, including aphids, leafhoppers, mealybugs, psyllids, spider mites, and whiteflies,”

Kontos is pretty expensive for using as a dunk on large plants so I just dip clones once when they first root then I usually let my clones grow a lil bit in the rapid rooter for a few more days, dip them again and plant them. Mixing just a gallon at a time makes it fairly economical.

The botanigard seems like good stuff but to pricey for me right now. Spent 600 on a kilo of met52 that only seemed to work kind of in the beginning and then after a few months did nothing.

Gonna try the orthene (3.3/gal as recommended) on some clones when they root. I'll post back how it goes.

Another thing that I feel needs to be looked into is dipping clones that are rooted in a clone machine (no media) that could be treated with hot water (114F) or pesticide for the purpose of saving heirloom genetics.

 

[yerboyblue]

Careful on the orthene dosage, if you mix it at that rate definitely try a test batch of plants. I burned the crap out of some big nice plants using it too strong, at a waay smaller dose than that.

 

[wingdings]

I used 5 ml of the orthene (3.3 g) and 5 ml of the riptide. No burn. Ive been lucky enough to be getting a lot of males lately. So I ripped one apart and nothing crawling in the roots after about 5 minutes just staring at the ripped up rootball lol. I treated with imid a month ago, it knocked back the population considerably. A different mode of attack caught them off guard this time. Now I will use nematodes as a preventative in flower.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Careful on the orthene dosage, if you mix it at that rate definitely try a test batch of plants. I burned the crap out of some big nice plants using it too strong, at a waay smaller dose than that.

Perhaps your burning issue is related to some kind of reaction in your plant when you introduced Orthene.

I know many many many years ago (damn has it been that long?), I tried mixing Imid with certain potions and those attempts all failed; in my world, it seems the residual of Imid in the soil (after all, Imid has a half-life of several hundred days...with Orthene--use your fingers to count the half-life days) caused some negative effect on my plants after other pesticides were introduced. I lost onsies and twosies here and there, but when I treated a whole cycle with Imid--then Orthene 5 days later...all plants locked up and died. Very expensive lesson!

In the informal trial & error studies I did with Orthene (BTW--I NEVER FOLIAR SPRAYED--ONLY ROOTBALL DUNK!), I tried various doses from 1/4 lb to all the way to 3lbs per acre...(equal to 13 grams per gallon--4 times the suggested dose of 3.3g/gallon) and never experienced a negative issue...no burning, no lockup, but best of yet--no Root Aphids!

I have been using the dosage to 3.3 grams per gallon for over a year or so--and still NO ISSUES! I imagine one can do trial and errors at lessor levels, but with the tiny half-life and no ROOT APHIDS...I am sticking with what works for me (just like everyone else should do!...find what works for you and stick with it! My environment/climate is not the same as yours...just as yours is not the same as mine.)

Hence, it is possible that residual levels of a prior pesticide in a plant's container...could cause an unintended negative consequence when different pesticides are introduced.

I am truly sorry about the plant fry thing---I know how disheartening that can be!