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Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???
- Thread starter spleebale
- Start date
To all those using Bayer "Fruit and Citrus" because you think it's safer:
AS best I can tell there is nothing safer about it; just less imid. The amount of imid you use, length of time it is exposed to the root zone, and how late you use it are the factors determining how much imid will be around in the plant tissues at harvest.
Bayer "Fruit and Citrus" is just over 6X more dilute than "Tree and Shrub." If you are worried about the chemicals, I would use "Tree and Shrub" before "Insect, Mite and Disease Control" which has less imid and 2 other chems which do not seem to have great information available about them (where imid is WELL documented and widely used).
On the other hand, I am curious about the ability of the "Insect, Mite and Disease Control" product to control root-zone pathogens during an infestation. I speculate that the anti-fungal probably kills most beneficial fungi and possibly other beneficials, but it may be worth it during the "kill and clean" phase, especially when there is heavy infestation.
AS best I can tell there is nothing safer about it; just less imid. The amount of imid you use, length of time it is exposed to the root zone, and how late you use it are the factors determining how much imid will be around in the plant tissues at harvest.
Bayer "Fruit and Citrus" is just over 6X more dilute than "Tree and Shrub." If you are worried about the chemicals, I would use "Tree and Shrub" before "Insect, Mite and Disease Control" which has less imid and 2 other chems which do not seem to have great information available about them (where imid is WELL documented and widely used).
On the other hand, I am curious about the ability of the "Insect, Mite and Disease Control" product to control root-zone pathogens during an infestation. I speculate that the anti-fungal probably kills most beneficial fungi and possibly other beneficials, but it may be worth it during the "kill and clean" phase, especially when there is heavy infestation.
There are 3 types of Bayer, of differing strengths. Tree & Shrub is the strongest, Advanced is half the strength of that, and the Citrus is half the strength of the advanced. Stronger lasts longer, so if you don't want the chems in your bud, use the weaker strength, as all of them give 100% kill. "Tree & Shrub" is for trees, and lasts 12 months, according to label. "Advanced" lasts for 3 months according to label. I would definitely go with "Advanced", or "Citrus", as they don't stay in the plant as long. "Advanced", and "Citrus" are also cheaper, so I would go with those for that reason, as there is more in a bottle than I will use in my lifetime.
Of course, any of these can be diluted so that the strength is equal.
Great thread, Spleebale. Saved my mother plants!
Note: there are numerous other products with this chemical in it besides Bayer, including Ortho, which is also carried by Home Depot.
Of course, any of these can be diluted so that the strength is equal.
Great thread, Spleebale. Saved my mother plants!
Note: there are numerous other products with this chemical in it besides Bayer, including Ortho, which is also carried by Home Depot.
Fat J
Member
The only reason i feel it is safer is because such a small amount of the imid is needed to cure the infestation and there is a lot of data about it- I'm with you about not using the "insect control" one which has Beta-Cyfluthrin and something else. The imid is effective, thoroughly tested, if you buy lettuce in a supermarket, you have already consumed more imid per salad than you will end up with in your plant if treated correctly.
BigSwifty
Member
Fuck man I just figured out I had these after posting about "fungus gnats laying eggs in my buds"!!! FoCo turned me onto the truth... although I'm not sure I like it. As someone else said, I was way happier when I thought these were fungus gnats!!
I have noticed they tend to like certain strains. My Mr. Nice plant has been showing a yellowish-color that's had me stumped after not responding to nitrogen. It's gotta be these fuckers.
Well, I'm 24 days into flower and earliest harvest will come in 36 days for the early-finishers. So, it looks like imid is out of the question... I was thinking of Spectracide... it's really the only option at this point. I'm hoping to just keep their population down and limit damage... although I may go with something less toxic like the botanigard.
Fuck man.. these sound like the worst absolute pest you can get!! Spider mites were a piece of cake to eliminate compared to what I'm hearing about these bugs. I'm really bummed. I just hope to harvest something... without fuckin' gnats stuck in the buds.
I have noticed they tend to like certain strains. My Mr. Nice plant has been showing a yellowish-color that's had me stumped after not responding to nitrogen. It's gotta be these fuckers.
Well, I'm 24 days into flower and earliest harvest will come in 36 days for the early-finishers. So, it looks like imid is out of the question... I was thinking of Spectracide... it's really the only option at this point. I'm hoping to just keep their population down and limit damage... although I may go with something less toxic like the botanigard.
Fuck man.. these sound like the worst absolute pest you can get!! Spider mites were a piece of cake to eliminate compared to what I'm hearing about these bugs. I'm really bummed. I just hope to harvest something... without fuckin' gnats stuck in the buds.
BigSwifty
Member
Anyone have a recipe for a tobacco/nicotine drench!?!?
I need to get going on killing these fuckers! I've decided to just try to control their population using the least toxic methods possible. Since it sounds like it'll be nearly impossible to wipe them out... there's no sense in using some nasty shit. I didn't know I had them until day 25 of flower, so unfortunately Imid is not an option. So, I think I'm going to use Tobacco.... Botanigard if I can find/afford it..... pyrethrins....... and lastly once I treated for 2 weeks I may just throw some nematodes in there.
I need to get going on killing these fuckers! I've decided to just try to control their population using the least toxic methods possible. Since it sounds like it'll be nearly impossible to wipe them out... there's no sense in using some nasty shit. I didn't know I had them until day 25 of flower, so unfortunately Imid is not an option. So, I think I'm going to use Tobacco.... Botanigard if I can find/afford it..... pyrethrins....... and lastly once I treated for 2 weeks I may just throw some nematodes in there.
Leonard NeemOil
Member
Thanks HighBreed!
Finally an exact photo of what I have.
Not phyloxera, but actual aphids.
Finally an exact photo of what I have.
Not phyloxera, but actual aphids.
Leonard NeemOil
Member
Has anybody posted actual results from using Botanigard yet? I saw a few people considering but missed seeing any actual results. I wish they sold smaller amounts to try out first, that stuff is expensive.
I have had good luck with nematodes and Azamax drenches so far, contrary to other peoples experience. Maybe we are dealing with different species or completely different families as in the case of phylloxera.
I noticed my fliers liked the shiniest, brightest leaves, in the sweet spot, but they were always dead when I found them. At first, before I had them under control, there would be a couple of dead ones on the same leaf, even the same blade. I would remove them and then the next day there would be one or two more on the exact same leaf on the exact same blade! Always dead! Very bizarre.
I also noticed dozens of dead fliers piled in between the spiral of a compact fluorescent bulb in my closet that is rarely on.
They seem to be attracted to bright and shiny, so I hung a blue sticky trap directly under a compact fluorescent bulb in another room and left the light on 24 hours a day. The little bastards covered the trap within a day or two. The same sticky traps on the periphery of my actual grow area barely only attracted one or two previously.
I have had good luck with nematodes and Azamax drenches so far, contrary to other peoples experience. Maybe we are dealing with different species or completely different families as in the case of phylloxera.
I noticed my fliers liked the shiniest, brightest leaves, in the sweet spot, but they were always dead when I found them. At first, before I had them under control, there would be a couple of dead ones on the same leaf, even the same blade. I would remove them and then the next day there would be one or two more on the exact same leaf on the exact same blade! Always dead! Very bizarre.
I also noticed dozens of dead fliers piled in between the spiral of a compact fluorescent bulb in my closet that is rarely on.
They seem to be attracted to bright and shiny, so I hung a blue sticky trap directly under a compact fluorescent bulb in another room and left the light on 24 hours a day. The little bastards covered the trap within a day or two. The same sticky traps on the periphery of my actual grow area barely only attracted one or two previously.
BigSwifty
Member
Well if I can find it locally I'll use it and post some results... it is expensive shit though. Seems it only affects them at certain stages of life, but I'm hoping that in combination with other chemicals it'll be enough to break their life cycle...
I think botanigard is incompatible with nematodes though... I wonder what the residual time is after using botanigard until you can introduce nematodes.
Lastly, I was thinking last night after doing some research. I read somewhere that they will not cause infestations in sandy soil... they prefer clay-type soils. So what about mixing like 1/2 sand to 1/2 soil when you start? I wonder if that would help at all... I think every little thing to make the environment harsh for them is beneficial though... I'm definitely going to be adding sand the next round.
I think botanigard is incompatible with nematodes though... I wonder what the residual time is after using botanigard until you can introduce nematodes.
Lastly, I was thinking last night after doing some research. I read somewhere that they will not cause infestations in sandy soil... they prefer clay-type soils. So what about mixing like 1/2 sand to 1/2 soil when you start? I wonder if that would help at all... I think every little thing to make the environment harsh for them is beneficial though... I'm definitely going to be adding sand the next round.
BigSwifty
Member
OK so none of the shit that I need is local...
I'm going with either:
1) Pyganic 1.5% (Pyrethrin concentrate for soil drenches)
OR
2) Botanigard
Which would you suggest? I know everyone is curious about botanigard. It's only like $20 more than the pyganic. And I don't expect to eliminate them, but I would like to reduce their numbers enough so they cause little to no damage.
EDIT: Fuck it, I'm getting Botanigard ES. I saw in a couple other posts that it works well, so we shall see. I'll have feedback soon. I just gave half of the plants a nicotine drench. Zero bugs were in the runoff, so I think my infestation is still confined to 2-3 plants. Two are obviously affected and I suspect a third one is also.
Ive been teaching Oregon about these for 6 years.
A friend name POTential did some tests on what to use to kill them.
Best he has found was Pyganic drench.
Jesus, man. Discusting. My skin crawls looking at these pictures. I hate these goddam fucking bugs.
BigSwifty
Member
I was thinking nematodes too because I'm stuck with organics. Do you know if nematodes can be used in combination with the fungus Beauveria bassiana (which is what is in Botanigard)? Are nematodes in the insect phyllum/family (whatever the f it is)?
nematodes are most certainly not insects.
phylum Nematoda, actually.
good luck getting up a sizable population before the root aphids take over!
pyrethrins do work.
you need to dunk the whole rooting medium of each and every plant for ~15 seconds so the pyrethrins can permeate.
then you need to repeat in 3-4 days to break their breeding cycle.
then you need to repeat in about a week in case of any dormant, unaffected aphids.
and again in 3-4 days.
meanwhile you should be sterilizing your room and changing your intake filter.
mind you, this only applies to indoor containerized grows.
otherwise imid is it.
phylum Nematoda, actually.
good luck getting up a sizable population before the root aphids take over!
pyrethrins do work.
you need to dunk the whole rooting medium of each and every plant for ~15 seconds so the pyrethrins can permeate.
then you need to repeat in 3-4 days to break their breeding cycle.
then you need to repeat in about a week in case of any dormant, unaffected aphids.
and again in 3-4 days.
meanwhile you should be sterilizing your room and changing your intake filter.
mind you, this only applies to indoor containerized grows.
otherwise imid is it.
Leonard NeemOil
Member
It's good to see some having success with Imid, despite this university study claiming it to be ineffective.
What worked best for them:
and good old insecticidal soap:
But why did they stop at 2 minutes? Would ten minutes or longer kill 100%?
http://www.onhort.com/Some-Aphids-Go-Deep-Others-High-article2797
What worked best for them:
and good old insecticidal soap:
But why did they stop at 2 minutes? Would ten minutes or longer kill 100%?
http://www.onhort.com/Some-Aphids-Go-Deep-Others-High-article2797
Leonard NeemOil
Member
Leonard NeemOil
Member
I'm having difficulty finding any studies of nematodes for aphid control except for this 100 year old report.
A NEMATODE PARASITE OF ROOT APHIDS.
BY JOHN J. Dvs,
United States Bureau of Entomology, West Lafayette,Ind.
Parasites of root-infesting plant lice are so rarely encountered
that this record of a nematode attacking a root aphid is especially
interesting. We first found apterousviviparous and oviparous
individuals of a new species of Anocia infested with nematodes at
Lafayette, Ind., October 16, 1911, and again on October 19, and,
a number of collections were made at frequent dates
between September 15 and October 15 from nearby plants, no
parasitized aphids were found earlier than the dates mentioned
above. The aphids were on the roots of Muhlenbergia and rather
near the surface; that is about a half inch below the surface of the
ground. The coiled and twisted worm was visible within the body
of the aphid but after clearing and mounting in balsam it became
much more distinct. The accompanying illustration, kindly drawn
for us by Dr. Henry Fox, is a very characteristic likeness of the
nematode worm within the body of the aphid. The nematode
proved indeterminable and it is not unlikely that the aphid is
simply an intermediary host.
We know of but one other record of a nematode infesting an
aphid. Dr. G. Del Guercio, on page e05 of Nuove Relazioni of the
Royal Station of Agricultural Entomology of Florence (Vol. I,
1899), records a nematode as one of the natural means which limits
the diffusion of Trama radicis Kaltenbach, a root aphid, and on
the following page gives a simple outline drawing of the nematode
worm.
A NEMATODE PARASITE OF ROOT APHIDS.
BY JOHN J. Dvs,
United States Bureau of Entomology, West Lafayette,Ind.
Parasites of root-infesting plant lice are so rarely encountered
that this record of a nematode attacking a root aphid is especially
interesting. We first found apterousviviparous and oviparous
individuals of a new species of Anocia infested with nematodes at
Lafayette, Ind., October 16, 1911, and again on October 19, and,
a number of collections were made at frequent dates
between September 15 and October 15 from nearby plants, no
parasitized aphids were found earlier than the dates mentioned
above. The aphids were on the roots of Muhlenbergia and rather
near the surface; that is about a half inch below the surface of the
ground. The coiled and twisted worm was visible within the body
of the aphid but after clearing and mounting in balsam it became
much more distinct. The accompanying illustration, kindly drawn
for us by Dr. Henry Fox, is a very characteristic likeness of the
nematode worm within the body of the aphid. The nematode
proved indeterminable and it is not unlikely that the aphid is
simply an intermediary host.
We know of but one other record of a nematode infesting an
aphid. Dr. G. Del Guercio, on page e05 of Nuove Relazioni of the
Royal Station of Agricultural Entomology of Florence (Vol. I,
1899), records a nematode as one of the natural means which limits
the diffusion of Trama radicis Kaltenbach, a root aphid, and on
the following page gives a simple outline drawing of the nematode
worm.
yes, and drown the roots in the process.
Leonard NeemOil
Member
Do you have direct experience with this or any references to support your claim?
I have seen recommendations for longer soap root soaks for other plants by general gardeners.
