Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[TheOutlawTree]

I see ur in cali, why not just call the people that make the met52, they would give u an honest answer, so not to make their product ineffective.

My guess is no though. I just cant see how some natural oils, and herb extracts are going to mess with a fungus. those oil products are designed to be undesirable to bugs, and mess with their reproduction cycle.

Talked to a couple different Met-52 reps and they didn't give me a sure shot answer... they pretty much said the same thing you said though. I need to call a couple more people next week.

Tonatiua-

I used the OG biowar (full strength) once a week at the start of my new cycle and noticed slow growth. Upon further inspection I did find a couple RA's. For me the OG biowar was not effective. Im not sure about fungus gnats though, haven't had a problem with them.

If you have fungus gnats use Gnatrol. Should take care of them real quick.

 

[medicalmj]

I haven't used the ogbiowar but I keep hearing good things about it. I used liquid bti, then bti bits mixed in the medium, and sm90. I did the potato test overnight and found soil mites the next day. They are much smaller than RA I believe.

Hey this thread is too long and time is short so forgive me if I missed something. But I have to add that I am versed in soil mites and have posted much on the issue. Perhaps you can find and read.

In a nutshell soil mites are not the real problem. FGs can, and IMHO usually are where it all starts. FGs and root rot go hand in hand. What's causing what may remain a mystery. Soil mites just show up to the party and leave when its over. It really is that simple as they are phoretic. Sadly, the party comes at the expense of the plant.

Having been down this road, here's what works for me after trying everything possible. Took several years to figure out so here she goes:

I use a combo of imid, predatory nematodes and beneficials (like OGbiowar). Found SNS 203, neem, azamax, and cedar oil to be ineffective. I do two imid drenches. One when they are still in a beer cup but have good roots and one on the first day of 12/12. They get benificial fungus and bacteria all the through and predatory nematodes in flower about two times and once mid veg. I suspect you could forgo the bacteria and perhaps the predatory nematodes and FGs would do little harm.

However, from experience, if you stop the imid, the FGs will start to repopulate over time and while not as bad as doing nothing, slight economic losses should be expected.

I know many may not like my stance on neonic's but the levels in the flower after 2 months is basically zero and the real issue with neonic's is that it not be used outdoors on plants that are about to flower. So yeah, DO NOT do this to outdoor weed. And you shouldn't have to since FGs aren't an issue outdoors.

 

[eebbnflow]

i just went threw FG problem and had brown mushy roots that im currently cleaning up with H202 . im in Hydroton only . I examined some roots under 100x loupe saw what I thought was RA at early stage . But now I think its this cause this really looks like what I saw ! also it looks like a soil mite to me .also my RO storage got above 72f for a week or maybe two un noticed , really trying to clear /clean this up in veg

 

[eebbnflow]

I just read this and thought this could help someone


By Dr. Lynette Morgan


Introduction
Occasionally problems in a usually trouble free hydroponic system strike most growers, with growth of unwanted algae being the most common, but sometimes the problem can be hidden down in the root zone, where the culprit is not always obvious. Fungus gnat larvae and microscopic nematodes can do considerable damage to a hydroponic crop's root system without a grower even being aware what is going on. Many inexperienced growers don't make the connection with the 'tiny brown flies' which seem to be fluttering around the system with the sudden death of seedling root systems and collapse of plants, since the adult flies themselves do not attack the plants. However in the plants root zone, hungry larvae, hatched from the eggs laid by the gnat adults are biting into the root systems and causing serious damage.

Prevention of algae, which acts as an 'enticer' to fungus gnats, their larvae and nematode infestations is vital, as control options for these problems and pests once present are limited.


Algae
All hydroponic growers know what algae looks like - it is often green, but can be brown, reddish or black, it clings to channels, gullies or pumps or oozes over the top of damp media. Algae often has an 'earthy' or 'mouldy' smell, particularly when large numbers are decomposing in the nutrient. It has the ability to block drippers, emitters, pumps, return channels, and heavy infestations can actually 'seal' off the surface of the media or substrate.

The problem with algae, apart from the appearance and smell problems it creates, is not so much that it uses up nutrients from the solution, but as it blooms, dies and decomposes, it removes dissolved oxygen from the hydroponic system. This increases the biological oxygen demand (BOD) on the system and the plant's roots may suffocate from a lack of O2. Decomposing algae may also release toxins as it breaks down and provides a food source for plant pathogenic fungi which may then multiply to high levels in the system. Algae on plant root systems can suffocate the roots, making the plants prone to attack by opportunist pathogens such as Pythium.

Algae, is a form of plant life, it is a natural consequence of exposing water with nutrients dissolved in it to a light source. Where there is no light, algae can not grow, so the most obvious solution to preventing algae growth is to stop light from reaching the nutrient solution where ever possible. Channels should have light proof covers, return gullies also need covers, large media beds can also be covered with either plastic film or a layer of substrate which is designed to act as a 'dry mulch' since algae can not grow on dry surfaces. In aeroponic systems, the root chamber must be light proof and media based pot or container systems can have plastic or rigid collars made which cover the surface of the media. However, even in the best designed system, there is usually somewhere that light will fall on the nutrient - planting holes in NFT, return outlets in channels and tanks are common areas.

Control of algae, once in a hydroponic system can be difficult - most growers tolerate small amounts of algae in the system, provided it does not become excessive and this usually causes no problems. Where algae growth has become thick and widespread, often the best option is to clean up the whole system after crop removal and start again with a clean system.

Some growers add algicide products into the nutrient to kill off algae and there are a number of these products on the market. However, since any product which kills algae, a form of plant life, can also damage young or sensitive root systems, care must be taken with the dose and damage has been known to occur. Algae will also regrow, very quickly after applications of most algaecide products, requiring more and more of the chemical to get good control. In a study carried out in Belgium on Algae control in hydroponic systems, it was found that many of the products tested for control of algae in nutrient solutions (Diazinon, Endosulfan, Propiconazole, Thiram, Ziram, Quinomanid, Irgarol-1051 and Hydrogen peroxide) were either totally ineffective in killing algae, or killed off much of the algae but were also very phytotoxic to the plants and causes considerable root damage. It was also found that dose levels of 50ppm of hydrogen peroxide was requited to control algae, but that this dose was too phytotoxic for young plants, although older plants survived this dose rate. Therefore, careful and selective use of H2O2 could be used on older, more resistant plants, but since H2O2 is a 'biocide' rather than an 'algicide' there is always a risk of root damage.

Other studies have found 'organic' algae control methods such as adding certain 'grapefruit seed extracts' to the nutrient will kill algae without harming the plants - this is a method used in drinking water, fish ponds, lakes etc and appears to work well. There could be the potential, in larger hydroponic tanks to use 'Barley straw rafts' as a means of algae control as has been proven to work in ponds, lakes and other water ways. However the best method of algae control will still always be prevention of the problem, so excluding light should be the main emphasis in systems with algae problems.


Fungus Gnats and Shore Flies
Fungus gnats are small dark flies, with long legs and distinctive wings, which belong to the Sciaridae and Mycetophilidea families and are sometimes called 'sciarids' or 'sciarid flies'. Adults are usually 0.06 to 0.125 inch long and are weak fliers, often seen sitting near plants and running on growing media or foliage. Females lay tiny eggs in moist media or potting mix. The larvae which hatch from these eggs, cause the damage to the plant root systems, are white or transparent with a black head. Most fungus gnat larvae feed on fungi or dead plants in the media, but some species also feed on living tissue and will attack young seedlings or cuttings. Fungus gnats also spread plant disease pathogens in the media, so good control is important.

There are also shore flies which live in or on algae growth or on very wet, decomposing organic matter and these are common in growing areas where conditions are damp. Shore fly larvae do not tend to feed on root systems, but they are frequently confused with fungus gnats since they often occur together. Fungus gnats are a more serious pest because they can cause so many crop problems by weakening the root system of a large number of plants.

Prevention of gnats includes screening of doors and vents and well as reducing media moisture and organic debris. Allowing the surface of the hydroponic media or substrate to dry out between irrigations will help prevent infestations, as will good drainage of growing beds or ebb and flow systems. Make sure all pruning, organic matter, dead leaves etch which have fallen into the surface of the media are removed regularly. Also make sure that any growing media is not already infected with gnat larvae when you purchase it and keep it enclosed in plastic until use.

The first step in controlling gnats is monitoring for the presence or build up of these pests. The adult flies are attracted to yellow sticky traps - but identification of fungus gnats and shore flies can be difficult as many species look similar. There are three types of control for gnats: chemical, growth regulators and biological agents. Chemical products are often organophosphate based and care needs to be taken when handling and applying these: products containing acephate or malathion are often used for chemical control, also carbaryl which also kills the larvae. Diazinon containing products have also been reported to be effective but they need to be applied to the media as high volume drenches. Pyrethrum or a pyrethroid can give some temporary control. It should be noted, however that most of these products are not registered for use in hydroponic system nutrients and media, so commercial growers always need to check with their department of Agriculture about which products can be legally used.

Of the insect growth regulator products - those containing Azadirachtin (from the Neem tree), kinoprene, diflubenzuron or cyromazine can be effective when applied to the growing media at regular intervals. Another biological agent is Gnatrol, a spore forming bacterium produced commercially, which can be applied to control the larvae in the media. Make sure the bacterial product you use is specific for gnats, not the ones used for caterpillar control which are ineffective against fungus gnats.

There are some insect predators now being used with much success to control gnats. There are two main gnat predators available commercially - one is the predatory soil mite, the other are species of nematodes. Hypoaspis miles is the species of soil mite which feeds on small soil inhabiting insects and is primarily a predator of fungus gnat larvae in the media. These predators will eat 1 to 5 larvae per day and can survive as a scavenger by feeding on algae and plant debris. Hypoaspis are for preventive control only, before fungus gnat populations are high, and can be purchased in a peat mixture for application.


Nematodes.
Nematodes, also called 'eelworms' or 'needle worms' are microscopic worms, which can only be seen under a microscope, making identification difficult for most growers. Not all nematodes cause plant problems, many are beneficial and feed on other tiny insects, clean up decaying organic matter in the root zone and some are even natural predators of plant pests such as fungus gnat larvae. Of the nearly 15,000 types of nematodes so far discovered only 2,500 are parasitic on crop plants. Many hydroponic growers assume that nematodes are soil based and therefore don't affect soilless systems, however nematode damage of hydroponic crops can be common where the system has been contaminated with soil, through seedlings and when nematodes might be present in the water supply. Water from wells, streams, dams, anywhere the water has been in contact with soil and not sterilised before use, can contain nematodes and become a source of infection. However the most common source of nematode infestation in hydroponic systems is where soil has been used to raise the seedlings, or soil raised plants, seedlings or cuttings have been introduced to the hydroponic system, carrying with them an infestation of nematodes. Nematodes can also be spread from soil to hydroponic systems via wind, equipment, animals and humans. However, fungus gnats and fungus gnat larvae can also carry nematodes and spread these from infected plants to healthy plants.

The symptoms of nematode infestations include damage to the root system in the form of root 'knots' swellings, galls, stunting, root death and overall low vigour of the plant.

Some of the most common nematodes affecting hydroponic crops are the 'Lesion Nematode' which causes reddish brown root lesions, stunted plants and leaf yellowing. The 'Needle Nematode' whose symptoms include inhibition of root elongation and swelling of the regions just behind the root tips resulting in a forked, and shortened root system. The 'Root-Knot Nematode' which causes round to spindle shaped swellings (galls) on roots, with plant stunting and wilting and the 'Spiral Nematode' which causes lesions on the roots and a stunted root system. Nematodes can cause further damage to hydroponic plants since they can transmit a number of plant viruses. Nematodes which invade hydroponic systems can be divided into two groups - those which invade plant tissue and spend part of their life cycle isolated from the media or nutrient and those which live in the media/substrate and get their nutrition from feeding on the roots. Root systems damaged by nematodes are then very prone to infection by fungi and bacteria which can enter the nematode injured root tissues and cause other diseases.

Control of nematodes can be difficult - in soil, fumigation, crop rotation and growing of resistant varieties are the main ways of controlling the pests. In hydroponics, a severe nematode infestation will mean the system needs to be stopped and cleaned out with infected plants and media removed and destroyed to prevent reinfestation. Sterilisation agents such as H2O2, or chlorine can be used to clean the system. Nutrient solutions need to be replaced and clean, sterile media and nematode free seedlings replanted. Identifying how nematodes entered the system in the first place is also important to prevent re-infestation.


Summary
Nematodes, fungus gnat larvae and algae are all hydroponic 'parasites', using the nutrients, plant roots and favourable environment provided by growers to multiply and potentially cause a great deal of damage. Luckily, all these potential parasites can be prevented and controlled so that problems don't become severe and plant growth seriously affected. Recognising these types of nutrient and media problems is important, but so too is preplanning so the pests and algae don't find conditions in your hydroponic system favourable enough to bother hanging round and settling in.

 

[Mikell]

I see ur in cali, why not just call the people that make the met52, they would give u an honest answer, so not to make their product ineffective.

My guess is no though. I just cant see how some natural oils, and herb extracts are going to mess with a fungus. those oil products are designed to be undesirable to bugs, and mess with their reproduction cycle.

Many essential oils, seed oils and botanical extracts are fungicidal. Neem, canola (SM90), soy, chamomile extracts, etc.

SNS-203 is 1.5% clove oil (which is fungicidal at that concentration), but the final solution is only 0.025-0.05%, with an even smaller fraction of rosemary oil (also mildly fungicidal, but again, at much higher concentrations.). Lauric acid is a very potent fungicide (main component of coconut oil), but the company does not state the concentration.

Cedar oil is fungicidal and used to treat PM if I recall correctly. Can't find a mix rate for Cedarcide (only hose end sprayer directions), but other concentrates range from 1-2 oz per gallon, roughly 1-2%, the average concentration for broad spectrum action from fungicidal oils.

I would recommend using Met-52 or any fungi product at least a week after application of a control method with fungicidal properties. Not based on experience or scientific evalution, just my own research and an eye towards caution.

 

[cannascholar]

I talked with a Northern cali sales rep with novozymes/ Met 52. He said Neem, rosemary and other botanical oils root drenchedshouldn't affect met 52. He did say that fungicides could affect it if there was runoff from the leaves after a spray.

For non treated pots the liquid version is supposed to work. I was told it also works on the extremely small aphids. Keeping my fingers crossed because I've spent several hundred on it.

 

[Mikell]

He is correct, re: a foliar application will have little/no effect on soil drench. I was refering to direct contact, which was the original query if I understand correctly.

 

[TheOutlawTree]

Another thing ive been stressed about is the fact I am planning a medical garden outdoors next year here in CA

Ive never had aphids indoors in the winters like this year...

Im very worried about getting root aphids on my large outdoor plants as there is a lot of work that goes into that and it would be a shame to lose my outdoor crop to RA's.

Does anyone know if the RA's still thrive outdoors in California?

My plan is to take snips and drench them in something here at the house... and build a separate shed far away from here and do the cloning and vegging in april in the structure ill build... hoop house in may etc.

I will not bring rooted plants from this location up there... but im still worried about tracking them up to the land. My indoor will be all done for the winter in april or early may.

I would really like to keep my outdoor as close to organic as possible. I was thinking of just doing 1 or 2 doses of imidicloprid in april when they are small... adding met 52... and using predator nematodes...

A rep from Novozymes told me RA's don't thrive outside like they do indoors but he didn't sound like he was positive about that.

 

[DONAJTHEIII]

Another thing ive been stressed about is the fact I am planning a medical garden outdoors next year here in CA

Ive never had aphids indoors in the winters like this year...

Im very worried about getting root aphids on my large outdoor plants as there is a lot of work that goes into that and it would be a shame to lose my outdoor crop to RA's.

Does anyone know if the RA's still thrive outdoors in California?

My plan is to take snips and drench them in something here at the house... and build a separate shed far away from here and do the cloning and vegging in april in the structure ill build... hoop house in may etc.

I will not bring rooted plants from this location up there... but im still worried about tracking them up to the land. My indoor will be all done for the winter in april or early may.

I would really like to keep my outdoor as close to organic as possible. I was thinking of just doing 1 or 2 doses of imidicloprid in april when they are small... adding met 52... and using predator nematodes...

A rep from Novozymes told me RA's don't thrive outside like they do indoors but he didn't sound like he was positive about that.

actually bro I think it would be quite the opp. tbh.


Ive seen aphids bro on reg. outdoor plants all the time. Thats honestly really the only time ive seen them. Indoors they shouldnt be able to thrive unless you let them letting meaning they slipped by you. Outdoors the soil you lay your pot on could be a aphid colony below you never know. At least indoors you know what your bringing in and out.


Thinking of switching my indoor set up to a simple bucket DWC. since alot of peeps are saying there getting aphids from bagged coco but i think 90% are coming from dirty cuttings.

would def look into OGBIOWAR ROOT PACK the photos ive seen look gnarly lol




AJAE

 

[DabSnob]

Lots of Options "theoutlawtree"

Lots of Neem meal, and karanja meal in the hole would probably do it for you honestly, MEt-52 would be a great addition too if you wanted to spend the cash, thats about as organic as it gets lol.

But if your considering Imid, i would heavily suggest Gamma-chyalothrin, much shorter half life in soil and kills on contact, a good soak of the pot a week before transplant outside would pretty much ensure your aphid free. Ive battlked aphids before, 2 years ago, with Gamma-Chyalothrin. Used it in veg 3 times (2 weeks apart) and havent seen one since, no more "phantom deficiencies" either.

Good luck
Dabsnob

 

[StankyBeamer]

Spectracide didn't work for me, imid was much more effective, but lucky for you outlaw, it seems aphids don't have near the effect on outdoor plants because of natural predators, boosted plant immune system, and all the other host plants nearby for the aphids to move to. I think your outdoor would have a fighting chance

 

[StankyBeamer]

Also it seems like rosemary, peppermint, and clove oils would be far more effective as a deterrent outdoors because your treated plants would've less attractive to pests than nearby untreated plants

 

[DabSnob]

Just goes to show, some populations of insects definitely build immunities to certain products. Imid didn't do shit in my garden lol.

 

[StankyBeamer]

Yeah nothing really killed them off completely for me. I cut everything down weeks ago, bombed a couple weeks ago, bleached everything with a pump sprayer, and soaked all my pots in a hot water bleach solution. Don't know of they're really gone but I'm hoping another couple pyrethrin bombs and an orthene fogger and another round of bleaching should have me clean and ready to go, but I'll still use kontos and imid in veg as a preventative. Hopefully the few that might survive the bombs will die when they try to reinfest

 

[DabSnob]

Seriously consider Fogging your room with Cedar Oil (NOT with plants in there though), IMO its the BEST way to ensure a insect free environment between cycles. Also spraying the top layer of soil (NOT complete drenches) with cedar oil between waterings works wonders as well. Read up on the way cedar oil works and what it does to insects and you'll be wanting to pick some up. I'm currently helping a friend with his RA infestation, after three weeks of treatment with Azasol and Cedar oil top soil sprays we havent seen a single one. we even sacrificed one of the plants we knew had them bad to inspect the rootball and we still couldnt find any.

 

[TheOutlawTree]

Thank you for the suggestions fella's!

I have been using PCO Choice Cedarcide as an area spray in my grow rooms and surrounding walkways, doors, flooring, carpeting.. etc. I love the smell of it and its safe for your pets.

From the past couple months of research Ive read stories of people spraying with bleach, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Using cedar on RA's is supposed to be more effective than those chemicals.

Ive got some semi-healthy looking plants going into bloom soon but I literally have not given those plants a rest as far as preventative measures go. From the get go these clones have had Imidacloprid, SNS-203, Go-gnats, Botaniguard. Since Im going into flower next week I hit them with the imidacloprid 1 last time and transplanted all of them into bigger pots with met-52 and will continue using botaniguard once a week, along with sns-203 and go-gnats cedar as drenches. Sounds crazy but Ide rather spend the extra money on this stuff than lose another crop.

The plants don't have that super happy leaf shine look that im used to... but they look pretty healthy and im hoping I can get a decent yield this round.

I will never use the acephate or acephate / riptide combo again as ive tried it twice on select plants and had the same result. It burnt up the roots and plant. I would use the Spectracide over these chemicals.

 

[DabSnob]

with the amount of different products your using you should easily make it through flower scott free. just keep spraying the cedarcide around the base of the pots and on the top layer of soil throughout flower and you'll definitely be ok. If your trying to bring back that leaf shine and health try doing a foliar of silica,Kelp, and a touch of 100% neem oil. the kelp should bring back the green color and the silica and neem add that shine.

what are your plans for next cycle? are you still vegging during your flowering cycle?

 

[TheOutlawTree]

Hey dabsnob- sounds like a plan!

I Have some strains I want to run for next years outdoor... and I want to have plants ready to go into the flower room in 10 weeks so I have to have mothers going / perpetual style growing.

-I am debating just buying my clones in march for my outdoor... but im always worried about buying clones too... for risk of other unwanted pests. Time will tell

 

[vegtable]

here i am after a year and still dealing with this pest, i finally got a miscroscope cam and have pics, to me they have no tailpipes, i need help to identify these

 

[moses wellfleet]

here i am after a year and still dealing with this pest, i finally got a miscroscope cam and have pics, to me they have no tailpipes, i need help to identify these

In my opinion that is hypoaspis miles, a predatory soil mite, it has appeared earlier in this thread. It causes no damage, and could be protecting you against nasties like thrips larvae!

I have never seen winged root aphids but I believe they are much smaller than that.