Fermented plant extracts

[ClackamasCootz]

Spinosad is a fermented bacteria culture. It's used in oral flea & tick medicines (brand name Comfortis) which is administered 1x per month. Ain't cheap but it works.

This bacteria culture 'over excites' an insect's nervous system to the point where they cannot eat or reproduce. Very, very effective but again it ain't cheap. Even buying the lower-priced product (Monterey Garden Products Spinosad Concentrate) it runs $2.50 per gallon of ready to apply spray.

Still - it works to arrest the insect invasion. Using Linalool in conjunction with Neem/Karanja gives you anti-feedents, biofungicides, etc.

Cheap insurance......

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

SeaMaiden

Probably because of the weather but Oregon & Washington are huge gardening states. For example Portland Nursery (over 100 years) has 2 locations. The main one is over 5 acres of nothing but plants - from ground covers to full-sized trees and everything in between.

Just in tomatoes they have over 60 hybrids, heirlooms, etc. and seeds from the major players - Nichols Garden, Seeds of Change, Territorial Seed Company, Horizon Herbs, etc. There's absolutely nothing you can't get there and then there are the slew of plant shows where small businesses bring their heirloom plants. "Cloning" is used far more than most people probably realize with tomatoes, peppers and herbs. Getting the right 'keeper' for this weather is an important component to a successful garden.

I buy all of my exotic medical herbs from Horizon Herbs - Comfrey, native Yarrow, Chamomile, etc. Huge selection and priced ridiculously low, IMHO

CC

 

[lost in a sea]

mmm rhubarb

i know the leaves are toxic, dont know why i didnt think about them as an insecticide

great posts clackamas! keep it up,, people like you get lots of others interested in things they wouldnt normally,,

 

[ClackamasCootz]

lost in a sea

Rhubarb leaves will illustrate a point very well. We've all been warned not to eat Rhubarb leaves because of the Oxalic acid content. Good advice indeed - don't eat them.

But if you take the leaves and chop them up and cover with water, in a day or two you'll have a very powerful pesticide. That is science.

However if you allow the leaves to sit in that water for several weeks until it breaks down then this compound (C2 H2 O4) is no longer intact, i.e. it's pesticide benefit is gone but you are left with the Elements (NPK, etc.) that you can now dilute and apply to your plants as a 'nutrient tea' or whatever term is appropriate.

Does that make sense?

CC

 

[heady blunts]

coot--- how do you know when the specific compounds have broken down or converted?

is it based on theory or is there a way to observe it first hand?

 

[SeaMaiden]

I'm likely going to be in Portland within the next two weeks, but will be flying, and I don't think I can bring back plants with roots into California. I'd probably have to find an outfit that will ship to California. However, I'm also going to ask my local garden center to try bringing in this stuff. They've recently begun selling locally-grown, organic herbs, such as comfrey and borage, etc, that they weren't selling before.

I also have wormwood, but have been reluctant to try it because it does come with strong cautions. Smells kind of nice, especially in conjunction with our incense cedar.

 

[greenmatter]

horizon organics is a great company! i bought bocking 14 roots and stinging nettle seeds from them last summer and would do business again with them anytime. their catalog is like a wish list!

rhubarb does not do well in my yard (i'm thinking it is a Ph issue because i have tried everything else) but castor bean does pretty good.

i know the stuff is very poisonous, and i never see any bugs on it. can it be used to make insecticide or is it one of those plants you don't want to be messing with at all?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

coot--- how do you know when the specific compounds have broken down or converted?

is it based on theory or is there a way to observe it first hand?

Do the Cilantro deal - pull the tea after a day or so and hit your plants that have insect invaders.

Look at the results.

Let the Cilantro tea sit for 2 weeks or until the plant material is broken down. Some of the stems that contain lignin will stay somewhat intact. That requires fungi to breakdown and not bacteria.

Take this old tea and spray for insects.

We're back to the THC comparison - if you soaked your buds in water for 3 or 4 weeks how much of the compounds (secondary metabolites) would remain?

If these compounds did not degrade from light & air then they would, by definition, accumulate. These compounds are not child's play because they come from a plant. Most of the commercial synthetic pesticides and fungicides are based on plant compounds. In the synthetic forms they do not degrade or do so slowly which is fine (I guess) for ornamental plants which they're intended for. Spraying them on food and medical plants is absurd. Compounds from most plants (certainly not all) are C, H, O compounds - just like THC.

Terpenes, Terpenoids, Alkaloids, etc. Not all of these are safe or even warranted which is why you need to look at a plant's specific compounds that you're extracting or wanting to extract. Some of the plants I see being discussed on gardening boards are baffling on a number of levels.

Nicotine comes to mind in this regard......

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Coot, I get this and it makes sense to me absolutely

The easiest way to avoid any and all alcohol toxicity issues is to do very short cycles.

but here is where I begin to get lost

take a mass of chopped Comfrey leaves and stick it in a tank of water for 4 - 6 weeks and you'll be left with a rich nutrient tea

As you probably know I made many plant fermentations pre and post EM days and was always of the assumption (taught) that keeping the fermentation temperature above 90 degrees farenheit prevents the development of alcohol (in any amount which could be harmful). I practice this currently.

I've read the various recipes concerning FPEs involving very long fermentation (soaking/steeping) periods and have wondered about the potential for alcohol to develop.

I've also read a smattering of posts in these forums where it is warned not to ferment/brew/soak/steep too long or one could end up with alcohol formation which could be harmful to plants. I believe I've read more than one report of plants damaged purportedly by the alcohol in a botanical tea. (It is primarily the nutrient concoctions of which I speak)

Is there a solid answer on this? Is it just conjecture? Does it depend on the plant species?

 

[Microbeman]

Spinosad is a fermented bacteria culture. It's used in oral flea & tick medicines (brand name Comfortis) which is administered 1x per month. Ain't cheap but it works.

This bacteria culture 'over excites' an insect's nervous system to the point where they cannot eat or reproduce. Very, very effective but again it ain't cheap. Even buying the lower-priced product (Monterey Garden Products Spinosad Concentrate) it runs $2.50 per gallon of ready to apply spray.

Still - it works to arrest the insect invasion. Using Linalool in conjunction with Neem/Karanja gives you anti-feedents, biofungicides, etc.

Cheap insurance......

CC

Spinosad is a miracle, at least for fleas. We had a flea infestation two years back (4 dogs, 1 cat). The vet recommended the usual poison crap that you put on their backs. Thanks to Coot, I researched spinosad (Comfortis) and demanded it from the vet. Two doses and still flea free. The animals which take the oral dose, actually become flea killing machines as they jump on them and die...hahaha.

Spinosad was 'discovered' by a scientist on holidays in the Caribean
who noticed a lack of insects in the soil surrounding a fermentor in the rum production process. He got samples of the soil and found and isolated the responsible bacteria. (As I understand and recall)

 

[ClackamasCootz]

MM

Last summer I lost an entire cycle because I misapplied Lavender tea specifically. I didn't listen to the warnings and assumed that letting the plant material sit in the water for 2 weeks would give me a stronger pesticide. It definitely killed the insects - no question about that at all. It also killed each and every plant - Week 7 with a couple weeks left and it looked like the 'What Happened to My Plant Thread'

But let's take Borage because this is a good example. The compounds on the leaves do not contain alcohol Terpenes or Terpenoids but the flowers do like almost every flowering plant. These compounds are created by the plant to attract pollinators, repel herbivore insects, fungicides, etc. The apical meristem is definitely the 'other plant brain' along with the root system.

If I remove the flowers and dry them 'just like cannabis flowers' - correctly dried, cured and most importantly stored correctly then I can take these flowers during the winter and fall months and make a quick-brew insecticide or fungicide.

However if I take the entire Borage plant - leaves, stalks, branches and flowers then I could have issues. That is the reason that on any plant I'm using to create a 'nutrient tea' (or whatever appropriate term is applicable) then I don't want the flowers because of the alcohol compounds.

On the temperatures to preclude alcohol development that is something I know nothing about. That is interesting and could open some doors.

What I would offer is this - Canada, Israel and Holland are at the forefront on biological controls for the food-producing greenhouses. The biggest one is EcoTrol out Canada and they're product contains Rosemary & either Oregano or maybe it's Marjoram. It doesn't matter because the Linalool acts as a skeleton for all of the Mint family - it's the 'other' Terpenes and Terpenoids which gives us the taste differences between Cilantro or Basil. And even in the Basil cultivars the Lime Basil will have a 45 - 50% Linalool content but it's additional compounds that make it taste different from a Thai Basil for example.

If you'd like I can post the complete breakdown of a typical medicinal Lavender plant (Grasso or Spike) and I'll post the molecular formula on each of the compounds if that would be helpful.

I'm making this sound more complicated than it actually is unfortunately.

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Spinosad is a miracle, at least for fleas. We had a flea infestation two years back (4 dogs, 1 cat). The vet recommended the usual poison crap that you put on their backs. Thanks to Coot, I researched spinosad (Comfortis) and demanded it from the vet. Two doses and still flea free. The animals which take the oral dose, actually become flea killing machines as they jump on them and die...hahaha.

Spinosad was 'discovered' by a scientist on holidays in the Caribean
who noticed a lack of insects in the soil surrounding a fermentor in the rum production process. He got samples of the soil and found and isolated the responsible bacteria. (As I understand and recall)

An emergency vet hospital a couple of years ago for our Lab which had a massive flea attack - $250.00

That made the monthly $13.00 cost for Comfortis seem like a killer deal. I thought the whole idea of a monthly tablet keeping her completely and totally 'insect free' was hokum.

I was wrong - it's nothing short of amazing.

 

[Microbeman]

MM

Last summer I lost an entire cycle because I misapplied Lavender tea specifically. I didn't listen to the warnings and assumed that letting the plant material sit in the water for 2 weeks would give me a stronger pesticide. It definitely killed the insects - no question about that at all. It also killed each and every plant - Week 7 with a couple weeks left and it looked like the 'What Happened to My Plant Thread'

But let's take Borage because this is a good example. The compounds on the leaves do not contain alcohol Terpenes or Terpenoids but the flowers do like almost every flowering plant. These compounds are created by the plant to attract pollinators, repel herbivore insects, fungicides, etc. The apical meristem is definitely the 'other plant brain' along with the root system.

If I remove the flowers and dry them 'just like cannabis flowers' - correctly dried, cured and most importantly stored correctly then I can take these flowers during the winter and fall months and make a quick-brew insecticide or fungicide.

However if I take the entire Borage plant - leaves, stalks, branches and flowers then I could have issues. That is the reason that on any plant I'm using to create a 'nutrient tea' (or whatever appropriate term is applicable) then I don't want the flowers because of the alcohol compounds.

On the temperatures to preclude alcohol development that is something I know nothing about. That is interesting and could open some doors.

What I would offer is this - Canada, Israel and Holland are at the forefront on biological controls for the food-producing greenhouses. The biggest one is EcoTrol out Canada and they're product contains Rosemary & either Oregano or maybe it's Marjoram. It doesn't matter because the Linalool acts as a skeleton for all of the Mint family - it's the 'other' Terpenes and Terpenoids which gives us the taste differences between Cilantro or Basil. And even in the Basil cultivars the Lime Basil will have a 45 - 50% Linalool content but it's additional compounds that make it taste different from a Thai Basil for example.

If you'd like I can post the complete breakdown of a typical medicinal Lavender plant (Grasso or Spike) and I'll post the molecular formula on each of the compounds if that would be helpful.

I'm making this sound more complicated than it actually is unfortunately.

CC

This single post should be a locked sticky. Thank you.

I learned the temperature trick from Mr Pinto. It seems that it works because if I make a concoction to ferment with LABs, pure grape juice, EM1 and molasses it does not form substantial alcohol at 90+ but at room temperature it certainly does.

 

[DARC MIND]

word!
coot really breaks it down well,ive been doing this since he first mentioned using fresh herbs a while back
i have several lavenders,leman balm,sweet majaram,cilantro,basil,lots of mints,aloe,rhubarb,savory,thyme,oregano,rosemarry,sages & im sure more
got all the biodynamic accumilators plus other native socal goodies

but i have to ask
can we activate Spinosad like EM-1 to AEM??
using it to prevent mostly bud worms this season,a pretty penny so it be cool if i can get more bang out of it

 

[ClackamasCootz]

but i have to ask

can we activate Spinosad like EM-1 to AEM??

using it to prevent mostly bud worms this season,a pretty penny so it be cool if i can get more bang out of it

DARC MIND

I would suggest that anyone who has used Spinosad and has any level of knowledge about AEM, fermentation using other methods, etc. has asked that very same question. I know that I have.

But here's the problem - this culture is tightly controlled and in North America (and maybe elsewhere), Eli Lilly & Company owns the whole deal and they ain't talking at all.

Like MM said, the original culture was discovered at an abandoned rum distillery in Puerto Rico and from that initial source was borne the Spinosad industry.

However I believe that sometime in the past year or so I read a paper out of Israel (?) about a similar or maybe even the exact bacteria having been discovered and is being tested - kind of an 'open source' version of Spinosad. Terrible analogy but that's the best I could come up with.

If it is possible that would be a really interesting business venture given the prices charged by Bonide and Monterey Garden Products.

BTW - the Monterey Garden Products Neem Oil Spray is worthless. It belongs on the same shelf as Einstein Oil, Azamax, Azatrol and the rest.

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Darc Mind

You mentioned Lemon Balm which has become my favorite mainly because of the size they are from last year's planting. I covered most of the herb plants with barley hay from Eastern Oregon and I was able to keep most of last year's plants alive since we have pretty mild winters here.

One of the Lemon Balm plants is almost 30" tall and about that big around. I just pull off leaves from different plants and do the puree & water deal - instant pesticide.

Toss in some liquid Silica and Aloe vera extract and it's a done deal.

BTW - I have a source for cheap, cheap liquid Silica if you're interested. 3x the levels of Silica (SiO4) and 1/2 the price per gallon. I'm trying to find a powder version that comes in a pack size that makes sense but this is not a high-dollar compound by any means so getting anything less than 50 lbs. is challenging and probably isn't going to happen unless you want to go into the powdered Silica business - LOL

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

SeaMaiden

Nichols Gardens (Albany, Oregon) has a Culantro seed from Nicaragua for $2.95 (100 seeds).

They have their catalog available for download (PDF) - very honorable folks and you can buy from them with confidence. Check out their Basils, Oreganos and other culinary herbs - nice collection. Family owned business with maybe 6 full-time employees at the seed store. They grow many of their seeds on a small farm a few miles east of their retail store. That is not the case with many seed companies unfortunately.

HTH

CC

 

[DARC MIND]

heres a neat read i came across
http://www.microbialcellfactories.com/content/6/1/37#sec4

How Made: The spinosyns are fermentation products produced by one or more chemical mutants of the naturally occurring actinomycetes soil bacterium Saccharopolyspora spinosa (Boek et al., 1994).
Vegetative inoculum is grown by a submerged aerobic fermentation process. The aqueous growth media contain proteins, carbohydrates, oils, and minerals. Corn solids, cottonseed flour, soybean flour, glucose, methyl oleate, and calcium carbonate are part of the media. Because soluble proteins are present and air is blown through the media, foaming occurs.

Foaming is stopped with propylene glycol or excess soybean oil (Boek et al., 1994).
When the bacterium Saccharopolyspora spinosa is allowed to grow aerobically in an aqueous growth medium, it produces a number of biologically active metabolites called spinosyns. The spinosyns are large complex molecules containing mostly carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen arranged in a unique 4-ringed system, one ring of which is a macrocyclic lactone. The 4- ringed system has two sugar molecules attached, about 24 spinosyns are produced in the fermentation, and there are only minor structural differences, such as the presence or absence of a methyl group in various locations (Crouse et al., 1999).

Extraction of the medium and subsequent recrystallization gives technical spinosad, which contains about 90% spinosyns and 10% impurities from the growth medium. The spinosyn fraction is about 85% spinosyn A and 15% spinosyn D.
The technical spinosad is soluble in organic solvents and can be extracted from the biomass. Dow patents specify the use of methanol as one possibility (Boek et al., 1994). The methanol solution is centrifuged or filtered to remove solids. Then it is concentrated by distillation. The spinosad in the concentrated methanol is converted to the salt by mixing with acidified water. The basic, water insoluble, spinosad is crystallized from water by adding enough base to neutralize the solution

i also maybe interested in the silica if the price is right,i do have horsetail growing and that stuff rocks as mulch & or liquid supplement

for me its puree aromatic herbs of choice,aloe and room temp horsetail water (because i boil for a few mins)...

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Darc Mind

These guys sell the base chemical compounds used in hydroponic solutions for those who choose to mix their own.

Their Potassium Silicate runs $18.95 a gallon and the Silica content is 26.5% vs. Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt @ 9.x@ and that is priced at around $35.00 a gallon.

Just another source to consider......

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Double Post