Fermented plant extracts

[Oregonism]

Yea, been reading some stuff about menopause and the learn I'm getting on is... educational, and discouraging. Just learned about the various endocrine/hormone disruptors and mimics, ethanol is but one. I started a thread about using chlorine bleach as a sterilizer/sanitizer in the organic forum, but only got one response and no discussion on the issue. And that issue is that when Cl meets organic molecules, it becomes an organochloride. I already knew this, but didn't know how that relates to pesticides, hormones and the endocrine system.

Personally, I stay away from Cl as much as possible, mainly from habit and not necessarily from a health perspective. It is grandfathered as being listed with the USDA organic program as per Oregon Tilth standards.

It is also a large constituent of PCB's, basically they are molecules of 10 chlorine atoms in rings that hide benzene.

How about Hydrogen peroxide, that is my alternative.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

MM

Just a theory but some Horsetail Fern plants look like they could be some kind of fungi as you can see from the photo below and that might be the basis of this theory.

Maybe not......

 

[DARC MIND]

ok i was right,
KISS did do some vids! & it looks like more bacterial growth with the fungal compost + horsetail @ 24hrs....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf7yRdNt8PQ&feature=channel&list=UL

 

[Microbeman]

Well that would be some theory huh? Luckily I have at least two cultivars/races/strains of horsetail (including the one you posted) growing on my mini-farm so perhaps I can test the hypothesis.

Here you can see one variety surrounding my purple kale which I'm trying to get to produce seeds. If the damn rain would stop, I might succeed.

If I test this, do you suggest fresh or dried? I wonder what the article says.

 

[Gascanastan]

MM

Just a theory but some Horsetail Fern plants look like they could be some kind of fungi as you can see from the photo below and that might be the basis of this theory.

Maybe not......

View Image

...perhaps male and female.?

 

[gOurd^jr.]

So there are some aphids getting an early start on my 2 yr old curly Kale plants. Yesterday I mixed up a concoction of cilantro (stems, flowers and leaves), sage (leaves and a few flowers), and basil (leaves and flowers). I'd say about a handful of material total. I chopped it up pretty well with a chef knife and then added ~24oz of water and shake it now and then. I should hit them this evening with it right? should I dilute this juice or just strain and spray?

This thread is incredible, thanks everyone!
Gotta get out there and clip some horsetail and alfalfa!

 

[gOurd^jr.]

Oh yea and I just started some Rosepetals fermenting the other day too.

Here they are in the tomato jungle that desperately needs to get outside!

variegated

 

[Amber Trich]

cc- im curious what the fresh plant slurry contains/how it works compared to traditional dried herb tea?

See if this analogy works for you. Take any of the Mint family plants, remove 1 cup of crushed leaves and mix with 1 cup of water and set it aside.

Take a dried version of the same plant and I won't even beg the question - use the same amount by volume.

See which one you can get down without vomiting. It's the compounds which have an 'aroma' that contain these pesticides and fungicides. Sometimes the uninformed public will call them 'volatile oils' or something equally non-descriptive. How can an alcohol Terpenoid be an oil?

That's the best answer I can give you. The dried plant material will work and a good gardener will harvest enough material, dry it correctly and then store it correctly (just like cannabis flowers) and then be able to have an effective agent to work with during the fall and winter months.

But during the spring & summer months when the fresh plant material is available and when the worst problems with herbivore insects appear why use a #2 material?

CC

thanks for the answer and analogy CC

im curious if you are doing a hot or cold water extraction?

i still feel that the aroma compounds from mints seem to extract better from dry material than fresh.. if i crush fresh mint leaves and steep them in water i feel the extract is less mentholated than hot tea from dry material.

so if its menthol or linalool we are after I have a hard time wrapping my head around using fresh material (not necessarily disagreeing, just trying to understand)

fresh blended mints are kind of bitter though arent they? overly steeped lavender tea is also bitter... just wondering if the bitterness of an extract could be an indicator of pesticide ability?

if we're talking about something that might make us vomit.. menthol does the opposite

thanks again

Interesting. Of course we know that something cannot be a fungal promoter and anti-fungal both, although many salespeople try to smoke and mirror us into that illusion.

really? makes me think of garlic.. antimicrobial yet prebiotic

Well a fungi could be already growing on a substance/material, the substance/material could attract airborne spores (eg. moldy bread) or the spores and or hyphae exsistent in material
(like [vermi]compost or soil) is fed by the foodstock being used. pH manipulation can be used for controlling pathogenic fungi but I don't recommend it as a method for promoting fungi.

Most fungi lay down a pH trend towards the acid side while most bacteria towards the alkaline. They balance each other out in a healthy environment. IMO this is why we can end up with a stable soil pH of generally 6.2 to 7 when using lots of [vermi]compost, organic matter and/or compost tea. This, even when the ACT might measure 8 or even 9.

As far as the article, one usually never knows where information comes from which gets grossly perpetuated. The author very often just passes on information he/she feels is from a legit source.

For example most people believe that molasses only grows bacteria and not fungi. This myth comes forth from SFI, even still today. In reality it grows both nicely.

(also- i will order that horsetail article later today)

ok i was right,
KISS did do some vids! & it looks like more bacterial growth with the fungal compost + horsetail @ 24hrs....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf7yRdNt8PQ&feature=channel&list=UL

interesting.. isnt it normal though for a tea to be bacterial before it goes fungal?

on horsetail looking fungal.. even if it isnt a fungus it reminds me of old herbalists intuiting the use of a plant by how it looks (what body parts it resembles)

 

[shmalphy]

A side by side would settle the hot vs cold question...

I would say there are probably different things in each plant that can be harnessed by different methods, ie cold for microbial brews, hot for essential oils that might fight pests, etc... Just as an example... If the smell/taste changes, then we know there has been some chemical reaction... without extensive analysis, anecdotal evidence from small trials would be our best bet to lead us in a direction.. I would venture to guess that herbs dried at over 180 would not ferment the same, and would only be good for a hot tea...

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Amber Trich

Let's try it from this angle - if your doctor advised you that eating Kale would save your life from something horrible like the heartbreak of psoriasis or something equally disfiguring then would you want to eat it cooked or raw to get as much of the vitamins, enzymes, phytohormones, etc. as possible?

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Amber; In answer to your question;

interesting.. isnt it normal though for a tea to be bacterial before it goes fungal?

Here is an excerpt from something I've posted several times previously.

The following clips demonstrate the changes that an aerated compost tea (ACT) goes through over time. Please excuse my unusual form of narration. Note that the following ‘brews’ were all made using simple ingredients as itemized on my webpage (good finished but fresh vermicompost at 2.38%, black strap molasses at 0.50%, fish hydrolysate at 0.063%, feed grade kelpmeal [not necessary!] at less than 0.25%, soft rock phosphate [not necessary!] at 0.063%) Lately I have been making ACT successfully using only vermicompost and molasses.

First at 18 hours, the early stages of a brew, normally we see the development/division of bacteria/archaea and the growth of fungal hyphae. If one is seeking a fungal brew for some reason, this is the time to use it.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs2vcfree.wmv

In the following clip I identify an amoeba as a naked type but in retrospect it may be an active testate amoeba.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs3vcfree.wmv

Usually some time between 24 and 40 hours flagellates and/or naked amoebae excyst (hatch out) and begin dividing every 2 to 4 hours so the population increases rapidly. Flagellates are the small globe-like creatures moving about. They are larger than bacteria/archaea but normally smaller than ciliates. It is the flagellates in ACT which are mainly responsible for cycling nutrients to your plants. As they eat bacteria/archaea they excrete ionic (available) form nutrients to the roots. Amoebae and ciliates also contribute to this but too many ciliates can be a sign that there may be an abundance of anaerobic bacteria and the ‘brew’ is on its way (or has gone) downhill.
http://microbeorganics.com/36hrsvcfree.wmv

At 42 hours we still have a good ‘brew’ and this is often the stage I usually apply it at but I recommend 36 hours to folks who do not use a microscope. You can see that ciliates have come to life by the presence of the beautiful vorticella.
http://microbeorganics.com/42hrsvcfree.wmv

Finally, at 60 hours takes a very efficient machine and good monitoring with microscope and O2 meter to ensure good quality. Although it is not stressed in the narration one can see the increasing presence of ciliates whizzing around out of focus. These are normally larger and faster than flagellates and can indicate the presence of too many anaerobic bacteria. Usually if the ‘brew’ is continued on past this point it degrades rapidly, with ciliates and anaerobic bacteria dominating.
http://microbeorganics.com/60hrsvcfree.wmv

As long as there are much greater numbers of flagellates and/or naked (active) amoebae than ciliates there is no worry because ciliates also cycle nutrients. It is possible to run a perpetual ‘brew’ but there will always be a down cycle where undesirable organisms dominate until the new [vermi]compost and foodstock kicks in (starts being consumed and the correct microbial groups begin multiplying again) and homeostasis is established. I have seen this down cycle persist for at least 24 hours.

Shops selling from a perpetual brew:
If one is selling tea to customers from a perpetual ‘brew’, how do you decide which customer(s) gets the inferior ‘tea’. There are people who did the testing of perpetual brews a number of years ago and assuming that ACT is about achieving a consortium of diverse nutrient cycling microorganisms, they concluded there is greater efficacy achieved by starting a new ‘brew’ each time.

Those who advocate the perpetual brew support their method by alluding to some mysterious hidden diversity which one can not know about without DNA testing. This is complicating the use of ACT and [vermi]compost far beyond its simple form and use within the microbial nutrient loop. They are confusing bacteria and archaea which fix nitrogen (and other nutrients) with the nutrient cycling previously described, wherein nutrients are cycled by protozoa feasting on bacteria/archaea and excreting bioavailable nutrients taken up by roots. The diversity we are looking for are bacteria/archaea and flagellates (and amoebae) mainly. Fungal hyphae provides an ongoing food resource, binds soil aggregates, provides microbial pathways, degrades organic matter and increases moisture and O2 holding capacity. There is no mystery here, no specialty agents (although there could be) and it is as easy to see that diversity, with a microscope as it is looking for robins, sparrows and crows in your back yard with binoculars.

On the other point, I have trouble seeing how a substance used in a liquid (or soil) could both promote and prevent fungi unless species specific somehow.

 

[jrmedic]

Amber Trich

Let's try it from this angle - if your doctor advised you that eating Kale would save your life from something horrible like the heartbreak of psoriasis or something equally disfiguring then would you want to eat it cooked or raw to get as much of the vitamins, enzymes, phytohormones, etc. as possible?

CC

If my "doctor" suggested I intake Kale for improved health I would ask how why they suggest it, how to prepare it, listen to the answers, and ask for their source(s) of information.

I am curious to read your sources re: cooked vs. raw for vegetables, fruits, grains (sprouted vs. cooked) etc. I know very little, and have lived raw for quite some time at various intervals, but have experienced digetive disorders (while being exclusively raw) that leave me wondering if there might be a moderate balance b/w raw and cooked.

P.S. I feel for anyone enduring psoriasis; colon and liver health is essential.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Amazing if nothing else. Let's try this one: you have 3 choices:

Fresh Orange
Concentrated OJ from Brazil most likely
Tang

That's as simple as I can put it - maybe studying Secondary Metabolites would be instructive or at least informative.

I'm done here

CC

 

[Amber Trich]

wasnt trying to question the quality of fresh material, just wondering about its solubility in water. i guess blending would make it soluble anyway

sorry to get off topic

thank you for wonderful info CC and MM

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Amber

That wasn't directed at you - let's take this back to THC

THC - C21 H30 O2
Linalool - C10 H18 O
Camphor - C10 H16 O
Eucalyptol - C10 H18 O
Vitamin C - C6 H8 O6
Citric acid - C6 H8 O7

Would you boil your buds to extract the THC? Would you boil your orange juice to extract the Vitamin C?

CC

 

[shmalphy]

Amber Trich

Let's try it from this angle - if your doctor advised you that eating Kale would save your life from something horrible like the heartbreak of psoriasis or something equally disfiguring then would you want to eat it cooked or raw to get as much of the vitamins, enzymes, phytohormones, etc. as possible?

CC

If I eat it raw, I can only eat about one or 2 leaves... I can cook it down and eat the whole head tho, so I am not sure which way would be better.. Also if it is cooked, I can add garlic and other herbs which will increase the health benefits.. I have always thought the raw food thing to be a bit fadish, as a nutritionist...

The only thing that cures psoriasis is cannabis applied topically..

 

[shmalphy]

Linalool - C10 H18 O

Eucalyptol - C10 H18 O

These are both the same huh? that is strange...

 

[ClackamasCootz]

These are both the same huh? that is strange...

This is where molecular structure comes in as you can see from these images:

Linalool

Eucalyptol

 

[ClackamasCootz]

If I eat it raw, I can only eat about one or 2 leaves...

And why is that? You're almost there actually......

 

[shmalphy]

This is where molecular structure comes in as you can see from these images:

Linalool

View Image

Eucalyptol

View Image

Everything I know about chemistry just went out the window...

Kale is just unappetizing raw.. I spent so much time in culinary school, I just cannot accept the idea that raw food could be better. In some cases; say a salad, yes definitely raw is the way to go, but there is a certain magic that happens when an onion is caramelized, or garlic is roasted, and that is what I live for...

I think the heat "digests" the product and then produces something else, with a different chemical formula. In some cases, you will get detrimental byproducts from heat (hydrocarbons) but sometimes heat can remove harmful things found in raw plants, like taking the sting out of nettle, or cooking potatoes to destroy solanine. I believe that ADDING some raw foods to your diet is helpful, but I don't believe going completely raw is healthier inherently..

It would also depend on your genetic makeup... If you look back hundreds of generations, people with herding communities in their lineage tend to live well off nothing but meat and dairy, while agricultural people have evolved over the years to live off of vegetables. Most of us in America are somewhere n between, that is why there is so much great cuisine here.

To link this all back to the topic at hand, I believe there are there are probably different things in each plant that can be harnessed by either hot or cold, that will have different uses. And I also believe that every plant has a slightly different nutritional requirement based on it's genetic makeup.