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SooperSmurph
Yeah, no Friday for me, Saturday is full full full, looks like it's Cosplay After Dark for me, at least there's no chance of anyone I pick up being underage 
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Colorado Growers Thread
- Thread starter aceofspades
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I did not read all of the preceding 5000 pages in this thread, so I apologize in advance if I am expressing previously expressed ideas.
All of the current retail licensees were previously medical licensees that modified their licenses. The state will not begin issuing new licenses until July 1. Every day, I talk to someone else who is taking steps to get into retail weed. My guess is that by late fall, weed will be so cheap in Denver farmers will be feeding it to pigs.
However, even at this point, some things about the maturing market are becoming clear:
Because retail weed is becoming a commodity, marijuana products offer the brightest future at retail. My flowers are your flowers are his flowers. But, my Electric Smoke Muffin cures herpes and makes you see visions.
The market will remain immature until marijuana brands can be protected with federal intellectual property protection. The present workaround of protecting some ancillary product line like clothing or pipes is limited and does not apply to patents.
The state and the market do not yet appreciate the power of concentrates/edibles. Unless public awareness increases dramatically and end users are educated, we will keep seeing "bad trip" events that end in tragedy. I went to every retail outlet in the Aspen Valley recently and purchased concentrates and edibles. I was only warned about the potential for a negative experience at one (Greenwerks in Glenwood Springs). The not-your-father's pot thing is horseshit with regard to flowers but on-target with concentrates/edibles. Tourists committing suicide because they ate 200 mg of special gumdrops does not fit the harmless profile we have all espoused since the beginning of time.
Fame and riches aside, the new recreational law provides an ideal framework for collaborative growing and research. However, we need another kind of licensee, "the medical marijuana charity" to which surplus weed can be donated. The new law lets me flower 3 monster plants at a time, but I can only give away an ounce at a time. Grassroots research can be performed by hobbyists, but present donation cap ought to be raised so that surplus weed can routed to those doing research with the limitation that such weed its derivatives can never be sold.
good luck catching visions off your muffins when they only contain 100mg of thc, the state legal limit....
More regulations and patent troll lawyers are the LAST thing we need more of...
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CaliGabe
As for part one I don't see the market remaining immature just because brands can't be protected. The market is maturing very rapidly IMO. As for patents if you look at the approved patents in the US regarding canna GW Pharmaceuticals owns most of them. Good luck getting a patent with something related to canna. I've dealt with trademarks and patents on and off for 20 years in the health supplement industry.
Yes the state understands the issue with edibles. I don't see that concentrates are an issue because the method of delivery is easily controlled while edibles is a different story. The 'power' of an edible is determined by the cannabinoid concentration per SERVING. That's what the state is dealing with now and can understand a bit why better labeling requirements are necessary. Oh I bought a chocolate bar and gonna eat the whole thing...ooops that was 4x what I should have eaten
As for part one I don't see the market remaining immature just because brands can't be protected. The market is maturing very rapidly IMO. As for patents if you look at the approved patents in the US regarding canna GW Pharmaceuticals owns most of them. Good luck getting a patent with something related to canna. I've dealt with trademarks and patents on and off for 20 years in the health supplement industry.
Yes the state understands the issue with edibles. I don't see that concentrates are an issue because the method of delivery is easily controlled while edibles is a different story. The 'power' of an edible is determined by the cannabinoid concentration per SERVING. That's what the state is dealing with now and can understand a bit why better labeling requirements are necessary. Oh I bought a chocolate bar and gonna eat the whole thing...ooops that was 4x what I should have eaten
I agree with you that the market is maturing rapidly. However, it has a long way to go - insert interstate/global commerce. Big pharma and big money are not in it yet, and I suspect that will have a maturing effect.
The evidence that supports my immaturity argument is the present situation with shatter/dab/earwax vs. by the gram weed. At one dispensary in Aspen a gram of kind costs $35, which works out to almost $1,000 an oz. But, a gram of earwax at the same dispensary is only $75. Do the math. If I get 4 grams of earwax from an ounce of weed, that's $300 vs. $980 for the same good part. I think that is proof of an immature market.
There isn't much to differentiate the product now. I bought a gram of sour diesel in Aspen and another in Denver. The Aspen weed lived up to its name, the Denver weed was meh. Being able to create and protect weed brands will end that, but it is hard to see raw flowers being more than a commodity in the long run.
But, we have really only scratched the surface of what weed can do. I have seen evidence that you can treat meth/opiate addiction with concentrated weed therapy. Children with epilepsy are now seizure free because of CBD. The list goes on and on, but its length is limited because cannabis research doesn't get the money it ought to. I think once the industry is normalized, the market will get away from commodity pricing and move toward the same kind of scale you see with whiskey for recreational. I would say the medical model for prescription drugs is unpredicable.
And to the poster above that lamented the potential for patent trolls, lawyers and everybody else follow the money.
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CaliGabe
And they won't be involved until canna is fully 'legal'. By then it will be too late for those wanting to position themselves to 'make any money'. For those willing to risk things and lead the way a big payday in the future...potentially.
Here's a short write up I did for a friend to support his project in Cali and IMO a window on what's to come. Behind the scenes peeps generally liked the write (definitely not a business plan). You can come to your own conclusion.
View attachment 271298 Gotta figure out how to load that up through the IC site!
I was talking to a local dispensary owner who wanted to set up a MIP facility and never heard back from him when told him what it would cost lol. Anyway whatever.
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Agreed, particularly about edibles & MMJ charity. I donate to a 501(c)3 MMJ charity already, but, as you say, the law needs to allow for larger transfers to such entities. There's a weird little corner in the law around that- we can only give it away an oz at a time, but a med card holder can carry 2 oz. Go figure, huh?
I'm not terribly concerned about concentrates. Even over-toked, it's just not the same experience as munching down a cookie that leaves you quivering in terror under your hotel bed for 12 hrs. Pot shops def need to post big, bright & bold disclaimers about edibles. It's in everybody's interests, particularly theirs.
Edibles sell to newbies because some have an aversion to smoking anything & they're not prepared to invest in a vaporizer. They want to be discreet, too, and that lovely aroma of burning cannabis is anything but. The market needs a really cheap disposable pre-loaded concentrate vaporizer good for maybe a dozen tokes. Discreet, easy & weatherproof- throw it in the trash when you're done with it. At the right price point, they'd sell like crazy in tourist areas, also near concert & sporting venues.
Don't hit it too hard on the ski lift, OK?
barnyard
Member
"regulating like alcohol" and "harm reduction" of course there's going to be people that over do it ~ IF YOU'VE NEVER FALLEN OFF THE HORSE, YOU'VE NEVER BEEN ON IT! learning your limits is all part of the process...we need to be careful about making assumptions about other people's use...as adults we are responsible to monitor our own consumption
also let's not let a few bad situations - where we don't know all the facts - dictate policy
the reality is that CO regulation has been a tremendous success with very few real problems...other than what to do with all the cash!
hey Jhhhn, just picked up an 8th of pre-98 bubba kush that I have to wait until later to smoke b/c it makes me so stupid, lol, What are you puffing tonight?
also let's not let a few bad situations - where we don't know all the facts - dictate policy
the reality is that CO regulation has been a tremendous success with very few real problems...other than what to do with all the cash!
hey Jhhhn, just picked up an 8th of pre-98 bubba kush that I have to wait until later to smoke b/c it makes me so stupid, lol, What are you puffing tonight?
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SooperSmurph
Ambition paid off, just this once, a few hours and a hundred dollars have turned some of my formal wear into a seduction worthy costume Cosplay After Dark, here I come :yay:
Cosplay After Dark, here I come :yay:
MHBGuy
Active member
MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm hashbacon mmmmmmmmmm
One of the things people don't address often enough, I think, is the idea that Colorado carries an enormous responsibility to get this right so that legalization will spread beyond our borders. This is it, the opportunity we fought for & all too many did time for, sad to say. If we get it wrong, that opportunity won't come again for a long time. A64 can be a turning point in History.
Scrutiny is intense, and prohibitionist hacks are all over any horrific outcome like stink on shit. So we need to create an image, an honest one, that shows the world that we work to avoid tragedy with education, labeling & reasonable edible potency & serving size. We owe it to ourselves & to Colorado's tourist customers as well. Besides that, we should probably steal the Vegas motto, post billboards on the highways leading out of state- a marijuana leaf & "What happens in Colorado stays in Colorado". What really happens doesn't matter- what matters is creating an image of responsible cannabis policy.
This is highly political, which means that perception is every bit as important as the truth, sad to say. In that, we need to do what we have to do to stay ahead of the curve wrt Image. Looking good is half the battle, & it's part of stepping up our game.
We did come to win it, right?
barnyard
Member
there's no tragedy to avoid...there haven't been any real problems..and we have a responsibility to support the truth...people's unwarranted fear around cannabis is based on prejudice not reality...most of the media hype is a solution in search of a problem
OMG the stoners are dressing up like Underdog!, oooh noooo! lol
OMG the stoners are dressing up like Underdog!, oooh noooo! lol
barnyard
I do not want to sound critical of anybody. Decriminalized weed is brand new. I have visited a number of recreational dispensaries and have never had an unpleasant experience. I am astonished at how well the whole enterprise is operating. Clearly, the previous med industry was well put together with high quality licensees.
But, there was a news story during the spring about a kid that came to Colorado on vacation. He got into too many edibles unprepared and developed the state our brother poster called "munching down a cookie that leaves you quivering in terror under your hotel bed for 12 hrs." He freaked out and jumped out of the window and died. The only assumption I am making is that the middle-of-the-aisle legislators will be inclined to try to pass laws to prevent that from happening too much. They might not be as interested in protecting retail revenue as in getting re-elected.
So, I think that as a bad law prophylactic and in order to protect its investment and cash flow, the edibles industry ought to be working on ways to assist people in imbibing on an informed basis so that our legislators can focus on hashbacon grants. The suggestions I have heard, like making edibles smell or taste bad so kids won't eat them, will be mixing baby and bath water. Instead of making a people less likely to want to consume it, we might look for other ways of making sure everybody has fun.
I have noticed that the rapid spin up has caused things to wobble a bit at point of sale. There is no way that a new, expanding industry could have a standing reserve of well qualified budtenders on January 1st. When a customer says "Gimme a bag of them gummy worms," it might be good if the sales person asked in return, "Do you have experience with edibles?"
The present dosing scheme works real well if you get 10 pieces at 10 mg active THC each. Take 1 wait a couple of hours. Rinse and repeat. It won't take long to figure out what gets your to where you need to go. Sell beginner packs.
A product affirming public service campaign might serve a number of goals, including keeping the legislature out of it.
Jhhnn
All very good points. One reason for the present absence of a disposable concentrate vape is that tourists do not yet know that's what they want. Once the demand is realized, I think those things will be cheap.
I misused the word "concentrates." What I should have said was "in concentrated form." It probably won't be long before we are getting concentrates on sheets of blotter. At least you could print a warning on that.
But the point you made that screams for a response is this one:
At the NORML conference in Aspen a couple of weeks ago, the Sheriff of Pitkin County was quoted in the news paper as saying, "Cannabis is kind of a performance enhancing drug for skiers." and "We have never been too interested in enforcing drug laws in Aspen." No wonder houses cost a million dollars a square foot.
CaliGabe
Wow, thank you for posting that. A birds eye view into an emerging market. I only skimmed it, but you certainly seem to know what you are talking about. Okay if I PM you?
I understand that on hearing about the revenue it was generating in Colorado, Rick Perry indicated he wanted to legalize smoke in Texas "for the money." The Alabama legislature (bless their hearts) stopped hating minorities long enough to pass a CBD oil law this spring.
I think the greatest consequence of legalizing recreational weed will be medical. For the most part, no one in any presently non-medical state has anything resembling a clue about the power of extracted discrete cannabinoids concentrates, alone or in combination. Once the rest of the world has its first hit of ear wax, we ought to be going down that path.
So, now fearful that I will have to fight the guards of the night's watch at the top of this wall of words, what stands between us and the concentrated promised land is a lack of research. Rather than wait for Eric Holder to grow a pair and for federal research grants to make their way to Colorado State, I think we need a charitable framework in which we can crowdsource research on a grassroots level (get it, grassroots?).
I will put my thoughts on that in an attachment too, and make reading it more of a voluntary act.
B.
I do not want to sound critical of anybody. Decriminalized weed is brand new. I have visited a number of recreational dispensaries and have never had an unpleasant experience. I am astonished at how well the whole enterprise is operating. Clearly, the previous med industry was well put together with high quality licensees.
But, there was a news story during the spring about a kid that came to Colorado on vacation. He got into too many edibles unprepared and developed the state our brother poster called "munching down a cookie that leaves you quivering in terror under your hotel bed for 12 hrs." He freaked out and jumped out of the window and died. The only assumption I am making is that the middle-of-the-aisle legislators will be inclined to try to pass laws to prevent that from happening too much. They might not be as interested in protecting retail revenue as in getting re-elected.
So, I think that as a bad law prophylactic and in order to protect its investment and cash flow, the edibles industry ought to be working on ways to assist people in imbibing on an informed basis so that our legislators can focus on hashbacon grants. The suggestions I have heard, like making edibles smell or taste bad so kids won't eat them, will be mixing baby and bath water. Instead of making a people less likely to want to consume it, we might look for other ways of making sure everybody has fun.
I have noticed that the rapid spin up has caused things to wobble a bit at point of sale. There is no way that a new, expanding industry could have a standing reserve of well qualified budtenders on January 1st. When a customer says "Gimme a bag of them gummy worms," it might be good if the sales person asked in return, "Do you have experience with edibles?"
The present dosing scheme works real well if you get 10 pieces at 10 mg active THC each. Take 1 wait a couple of hours. Rinse and repeat. It won't take long to figure out what gets your to where you need to go. Sell beginner packs.
A product affirming public service campaign might serve a number of goals, including keeping the legislature out of it.
Jhhnn
All very good points. One reason for the present absence of a disposable concentrate vape is that tourists do not yet know that's what they want. Once the demand is realized, I think those things will be cheap.
I misused the word "concentrates." What I should have said was "in concentrated form." It probably won't be long before we are getting concentrates on sheets of blotter. At least you could print a warning on that.
But the point you made that screams for a response is this one:
At the NORML conference in Aspen a couple of weeks ago, the Sheriff of Pitkin County was quoted in the news paper as saying, "Cannabis is kind of a performance enhancing drug for skiers." and "We have never been too interested in enforcing drug laws in Aspen." No wonder houses cost a million dollars a square foot.
CaliGabe
Wow, thank you for posting that. A birds eye view into an emerging market. I only skimmed it, but you certainly seem to know what you are talking about. Okay if I PM you?
I understand that on hearing about the revenue it was generating in Colorado, Rick Perry indicated he wanted to legalize smoke in Texas "for the money." The Alabama legislature (bless their hearts) stopped hating minorities long enough to pass a CBD oil law this spring.
I think the greatest consequence of legalizing recreational weed will be medical. For the most part, no one in any presently non-medical state has anything resembling a clue about the power of extracted discrete cannabinoids concentrates, alone or in combination. Once the rest of the world has its first hit of ear wax, we ought to be going down that path.
So, now fearful that I will have to fight the guards of the night's watch at the top of this wall of words, what stands between us and the concentrated promised land is a lack of research. Rather than wait for Eric Holder to grow a pair and for federal research grants to make their way to Colorado State, I think we need a charitable framework in which we can crowdsource research on a grassroots level (get it, grassroots?).
I will put my thoughts on that in an attachment too, and make reading it more of a voluntary act.
B.
C
CaliGabe
There won't ever be much to differentiate products and that goes for flowers, concentrates or edibles. It will pretty much all come down to branding. Good thing about branding is that you expect to get consistency. Aspen weed or Denver Weed? LOL. I come from Cali and last harvest time prices bottomed out around $1,000/lb for B grade which I consider the top 10% of what's available in the general market. Concentrates will soon follow. One thing interesting about CO2 extracts is the barrier/moat or cost of entry which is the equipment. I soon hope to see the canna market like tomatoes. What's so special? Mmmmmm...Heinz
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CaliGabe
You can't PM me as you have 6 posts and need 50. PM me for what? I posted that info in another thread then eventually took it down. Most I showed that to liked it and others tore it apart lol. Whatever. The prices for canna are stoopid. Just look what it costs per pound for organically grown medicinal herbs on a site like Starwest Botanicals. Virtually ALL health supplement companies buy from the same sources. Not much difference in all the brands you see on the store shelves and all perceived value by the consumer. I spent 20 years in the pill biz and know a thing or two about that
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CaliGabe
I love dry sift. Grew up on hash from Lebanon and Morocco at like $6/gm. When I paid $8/gm for black Afghani my friends said I was nuts. The people I sold that stuff to for $10/gm came back for more though lol. Still think dry sift is the best smoke. A hundred pound 'bale' of top shelf flowers? Is that local Mexican?
The post minimum was graciously waived for me. I was going to PM you to ask if it was okay to pass your prospectus on to a vc who got in touch with me a couple of weeks ago about retail cannabis investment opportunities.
I think you are thinking too narrowly. Pot can get you stoned, make you stop seizing, temporarily ameliorate Tourette's Syndrome and make you want to eat when you aren't hungry. Products directed at these conditions (and others) are manufactured and marketed differently. That they don't compete with each other differentiates them.
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