Coco Tree's

[DJM]

hey man, I know you will probably have a lot of questions to reply to when you return, hopefully you have the time to answer 2 I have.
you are using these high temps with co2 correct? so if you were not, an or those of us who don't run with co2, would you use lower temps? since those seem very high at some points.


secondly, what volume of water do you give the plants per feed when multifeeding? do you base it on pot size so for example a qtr of the volume per watering or what?


thanks djm, and happy Christmas to you [/QUOTE

Like mentuoned by MM I'd only do so with lots of fresh air. I use to run my veg that hot with no Co2 all the time
and have done several flower runs that hot with no Co2. But never in a sealed room with acs , I wouldn't do that . You'll sacrifice yield but can still do well. The heat is not just a Co2 thing. Imo heat is one of the biggest influences on cola size. Flowers run longer and larger in hot rooms. Difference between just 80 and 85 is significant . With or without Co2. Just don't get too close to bulb in that hot of a room and you'll see a difference. You need to work around the heat to make it work , like runing your water and medium colder to cool root zones cooler than canopy as you want your tops 85 but not your roots . Many people can't run 85 successfully because they don't study and tweak the variables to make it work for them. Every time I see someone's
room at 78 I cringe thinking of all of the lost potential

 

[DJM]

I feed between .6 and .70 gallons of water per gallon of medium per day . With a 4.5-5 gallon pot, that works out to 3 gallons or 6- 0.5 gallon feeds per day. That can be scaled up and down dependent on pot size . If you are concerned about build up or running higher ppms , go with 0.9 + gallons of feed per gallon of medium and 1 to 1.2 if you want to recalculate nutes

 

[DJM]

Great thread DJM, finally someone is breaking some canna myths on a public forum.


You're one of the few people that share without wanting anything back.


Thank you and congratulations for the person you are. I will send you positive energy.


I have some questions that could help me and other members.




I know that you use dry-wet cycles until rootbound and then start multifeeding per day with minimal runoff.


If you increase the air filled porosity to around 45-50% you can start daily multifeed on the first feed, the growth rates between the plants in wet/dry vs multifeed is totally different.


When i in grow coco coir the plants feeding 3x or more a day get rootbound almost in half the time compared to wet/dry.



There is any reason you do it? I would only used wet/dry cycles if I want to slow down growth rate.




I have spend a few year studying and testing plant nutrition and I saw that there is a variable that you underestimate.


The ratios used on a a+b formula or 6/9 if they satisfy the coco cation exchange capacity are completely safe and a lot of different genetics doesn't show any sign of deficiency but that's totally different from following the plant metabolism and adapt it to each phase.



Do you just do it because off the low maintenance and stable efficiency or do you don't see considerable improvements to change your nutritional schedule?





Wish you all the good for the next year and merry Christmas to all members.

Thank you for the kind words . Great questions


I've ran coco cut with hydroton and perlite between 20_50% with multi feed (2X) from day one. The growth rates are indeed faster. What I did find though is the majority of runts grows higher when I multifeed from day one. And some take to it incredible and others are left behind . Leading to the need of higher numbers to select for consistency before going into flower. I think it may have to due with some roots being stalled from the steady water . But I haven't ran a 50/50 enough to know for sure . Wet dry cycles just always provide more consistent size and roots , plant to plant, albeit slightly slower for me. Also when cut up to 50, it becomes a slightly different medium and behaves just as much as perlite/hydroton as it does coco , in terms of ph range , build up ect. So you loose some things about coco I find beneficial like ph range and buffering . With that said a large reason I haven't ran more high porosity mixes is I haven't seen any available I trust . Tupur for instance can have run off as high as 2 ec at times . And I won't run it if I have to mix it by hand , which is how I've previously done it. Char coir has a product called cloud core which is a 50/50 I'd trust to run. So I'll probably be doing further tests with multifeed from clone


As Far as 6/9..I'll be honest I've ran almost every nutrient out there at one point or another , Ive tried alot of new things over the years. I've also grown extensively in organic soils. Most companies purposely split their regimins between several bottles so you need all to get the right results . Ive ran house and gardens line ,canna, ionic, dynogrow, Dutch master gold ,botanicare ect ect, but guess what 6/9 is still better at a fraction of the price and twice the simplicity with no frills .they sound great on paper for sure , but in reality they just don't match up in this system . Maybe in other systems and mediums they work better but not for me. I've ran rich balanced organic soils as well and 6/9 plants done right are just as healthy and robust. And I know that the organics is better for the plant , but it's like the plant doesn't. I personally think plants don't see the complexity between nutrients that people think they do. Salts are salts to a plant . Now the source of those salts can be debated but not how the plant sees them . I personally think a light , consistent and balanced dose of nutrients is what plants respond the best to when pushed . Just like how body builders eat many small balanced meals vs a few big ones. There are just so many claims from nutrient companies , many of which are propaganda imo to down talk their competition for superiority in the market. Unless people are doing scientific studies using plant tissue, brix/sap levels to reverse engineer what a plant wants it's a mute point. And even still they will never know as plants don't talk and they have no starting point to calibrate from. I just watch how plants respond and when they respond with 100% health I know I don't need to do anything else. If you have perfectly healthy , high yielding and fast growing plants , why would you think something is missing ? Especially when all those other nute lines don't give the same level of consistent and simplistic plant health and for a much higher price. But I always try new things as I'm open to be proven wrong. I'm trying out vnb now , because again, it sounds great on paper , but in veg guess what 6/9, Lucas is still wining so far. So to me I judge nutrients only based on real world experiences not just theoretical based plant science that seems to be what most fancy nutrient companies are based around. What sound s good on paper sometimes doesn't transfer to reality

 

[Bwanabud]

Great post DJM

 

[MR_Falcon]

DJM dropping some serious knowledge in here. Thank you, I'm learning a lot.

 

[siftedunity]

Like mentuoned by MM I'd only do so with lots of fresh air. I use to run my veg that hot with no Co2 all the time
and have done several flower runs that hot with no Co2. But never in a sealed room with acs , I wouldn't do that . You'll sacrifice yield but can still do well. The heat is not just a Co2 thing. Imo heat is one of the biggest influences on cola size. Flowers run longer and larger in hot rooms. Difference between just 80 and 85 is significant . With or without Co2. Just don't get too close to bulb in that hot of a room and you'll see a difference. You need to work around the heat to make it work , like runing your water and medium colder to cool root zones cooler than canopy as you want your tops 85 but not your roots . Many people can't run 85 successfully because they don't study and tweak the variables to make it work for them. Every time I see someone's
room at 78 I cringe thinking of all of the lost potential

thank you for answering so fast and perfect explanation thank you.


ok that's interesting about the canopy temps. I already hand water at lower temps, and due to scrogging the pots are generally completely shaded and therefore much cooler as a result. I guess in less sophisticated rooms, or tents theres not always the possibility to keep the pots cooler. I guess if you have a big room you can direct cool air under the plants from and air con or fresh cool air.. but still achieve higher canopy temps..

 

[jahshaka]

Wow truly is the thread that keeps on giving...big ups to djm. didnt have to but he did. feel blessed to find such info. Good vibes your way man from us all.

p.s tried the rooting regimen and struck roots on 7th day except i use jiffys. guys a genius any asshole hating shouldnt bother and move along and troll elsewhere.

Merry christmas everyone!

 

[el boyo]

love the info brother... had a question about your training/ veg system and how it would work in an organic soil system.. have you tried? i am running 4x4' beds of living organic soil, and was thinking of trying a variation of your style...

 

[Encrypt]

Thank you for the kind words . Great questions


I've ran coco cut with hydroton and perlite between 20_50% with multi feed (2X) from day one. The growth rates are indeed faster. What I did find though is the majority of runts grows higher when I multifeed from day one. And some take to it incredible and others are left behind . Leading to the need of higher numbers to select for consistency before going into flower. I think it may have to due with some roots being stalled from the steady water . But I haven't ran a 50/50 enough to know for sure . Wet dry cycles just always provide more consistent size and roots , plant to plant, albeit slightly slower for me. Also when cut up to 50, it becomes a slightly different medium and behaves just as much as perlite/hydroton as it does coco , in terms of ph range , build up ect. So you loose some things about coco I find beneficial like ph range and buffering . With that said a large reason I haven't ran more high porosity mixes is I haven't seen any available I trust . Tupur for instance can have run off as high as 2 ec at times . And I won't run it if I have to mix it by hand , which is how I've previously done it. Char coir has a product called cloud core which is a 50/50 I'd trust to run. So I'll probably be doing further tests with multifeed from clone


As Far as 6/9..I'll be honest I've ran almost every nutrient out there at one point or another , Ive tried alot of new things over the years. I've also grown extensively in organic soils. Most companies purposely split their regimins between several bottles so you need all to get the right results . Ive ran house and gardens line ,canna, ionic, dynogrow, Dutch master gold ,botanicare ect ect, but guess what 6/9 is still better at a fraction of the price and twice the simplicity with no frills .they sound great on paper for sure , but in reality they just don't match up in this system . Maybe in other systems and mediums they work better but not for me. I've ran rich balanced organic soils as well and 6/9 plants done right are just as healthy and robust. And I know that the organics is better for the plant , but it's like the plant doesn't. I personally think plants don't see the complexity between nutrients that people think they do. Salts are salts to a plant . Now the source of those salts can be debated but not how the plant sees them . I personally think a light , consistent and balanced dose of nutrients is what plants respond the best to when pushed . Just like how body builders eat many small balanced meals vs a few big ones. There are just so many claims from nutrient companies , many of which are propaganda imo to down talk their competition for superiority in the market. Unless people are doing scientific studies using plant tissue, brix/sap levels to reverse engineer what a plant wants it's a mute point. And even still they will never know as plants don't talk and they have no starting point to calibrate from. I just watch how plants respond and when they respond with 100% health I know I don't need to do anything else. If you have perfectly healthy , high yielding and fast growing plants , why would you think something is missing ? Especially when all those other nute lines don't give the same level of consistent and simplistic plant health and for a much higher price. But I always try new things as I'm open to be proven wrong. I'm trying out vnb now , because again, it sounds great on paper , but in veg guess what 6/9, Lucas is still wining so far. So to me I judge nutrients only based on real world experiences not just theoretical based plant science that seems to be what most fancy nutrient companies are based around. What sound s good on paper sometimes doesn't transfer to reality

Thanks for the long answer DJM. About the inconsistency that you mentioned when multifeed from start the problems should be on 2 factors, genetics or/and media. Genetics I really doubt that's your problem, did you try your cuts on any hydro system? Do you see instability when they grow water roots? If yes, you already know the answer, If not it only can be the media from what I understand. The media you can easily test your air porosity and adjust it to the correct level, from personal experience wilma cocolite-22 which they label as 45% air porosity, when tested in individual pots, some pots show low air porosity ~30% when others go up to 40%, this from the same media that should be 45% air content. If you see inconsistency from coco bags, just do your own mix with coco fibers + chips + perlite until you have the perfect ratios to achieve the air porosity you want. About the nutrients I completely agree with you, so far as a base the lucas ratios when adapted to coco coir are almost perfect, that's why some major nutrients companies are making 1 or 2 part nutrient almost with the same ratios of 6/9. Some companies make their ratios in a way that you NEED to use their additives otherwise they get a completely unbalanced nutrition, they take out some nutrients or lowing the ratios of specific elements and sell a single bottle only with that element, they only care about making money and if they could, they would seel a bottle of 5% N + water, a bottle o 5% P + water (...) and us (growers) would end up with 100 different bottles to have a base nutrients, then 50 more to the supplements... Of course this is a hyperbole but that's what they do when there is the need to buy 20 different bottles to end a grow without deficiencies. The additives I was talking about are fulvic, humic and amino acids, seaweeds mainly kelp, silica, molasses, PGR's, vitamins and etc. The analogy that you make about the body builders is perfect for this case, I'm a TCM practitioner and gained some knowledge about how our body works is totally different from what the general baselines from what the heath care advices and we can apply the same analogy in this way; If you have a stable diet you will live and you will look +/- healthy and your medical exams "should" be alright . BUT, what about if you want to get bigger and increase your body mass? or you want to improve memory? or you want to reduce stress response? or you want to enhance efficiency? You need to supplement your body additional elements or compounds like proteins, caffeine, creatine, antioxidants, probiotics, multivitamins, fatty acids etc, and if you have a balanced diet and do you do a biological terrain analysis you will see that you are lacking ( I hope no, but almost everybody have a nutritional deficiency) some of this so important elements and 99% or more of the world population is lacking too. This is why nootropics are getting the human being to a super human being, there is so many interesting clinical studies but that's off topic. The same applies to plants, I know that we can improve a lot our plants with the nutritional factor the questions is what? when? and how? So far I'm with a few runs using a close 6/9 ratios as base and supplement recharge on vegetative phase and mammoth P in bloom, great results not a single deficiency in different genetics, but as a human being we always want more. I'm always looking for new ways to improve my body and my grow, for now I think all other factor are completely dialed so nutrition is the one I'm dedicating more time and tests. Wish you all the best,

 

[chase1]

Brilliant thread thanks for taking the time to show everyone

 

[NewEnfglandFarm]

This is fantastic insight for coco growers. Thanks for your contributions.

 

[sheik_yerbouti]

Hey DJM,

Just finished reading through the 89 pages of this thread, just gotta repeat what others have said multiple times...Thankyou. This thread has blown my mind and the positive effect it could have on my life will be unmeasurable. Your a freakin saint for sharing this knowledge, most people wouldn't do this.

I have a couple questions I hope you could answer as I have a very similar set up to you and actually follow some of the same principles as you already (larger footprint for lighting then the so called norm and filling up my space completely with plants and putting in the extra work, I handwater and have to crawl for the most part). I've been handwatering for years and was looking for a way to set up an automated watering system when I came upon this thread and it is a godsend, I have tried them before but been growing in pro-mix and you just have to be so on point with watering amount in peat moss that each plant needs to get slightly different amounts it just never worked. Now that I've seen the abilities of coco I'm sold. My problem is I'm vertically challenged in my grow space with 6' ceilings and even lower where the beams are (in a basement) I'm wondering.

1) How far away is your canopy from those lights at the end? I've been running verticle bare bulbs because I find horizontal reflectors put so much heat towards the plant I just don't have the height to have a good 2' of space between the light and canopy unless I grow a SOG which I don't want to do. I recently started experimenting with parabolic reflectors and verticle bulbs with a custom setup (bulb hang further out of reflector) I can get them within a foot without the canopy being too hot and not getting more than 80 klux at the plant height. The main strain I grow seems to handle light intensity over 80 klux but I'd like to keep it lower cause funky shit starts to happen even still. Just curious how far your canopy is from the those vertizontals and if you think you could get them even closer?

2) on the same subjectby chance have you tried these?https://www.sunlightsupply.com/shop/bycategory/sun-system-reflectors/silver-sun-reflector

Just a little shallower parabolic, might be better for my setup as they might shed heat a little better and have a larger light spread at a shallower distance from canopy.

3) I'm a total newb when it comes to autowatering and I believe this may have been answered elsewhere but basically you have pepco 2GPH bubblers running 2 1/4" lines to each plant ya?

4) You mentioned in a post you had some sort of relief valve in your reservoir or something? Can you elaborate on that? I couldn't begin to understand what that would be for.

5) Is your trellising tied together yourself or is that outta the bag? Looks custom by the pics

Thanks a bunch again and sorry if these questions were answered already. The eyes go a little cross after so many hours of reading

 

[SuperWeed]

I can't believe I never found this thread before today. DJM, you do mighty fine work.

 

[Hookah79]

......

 

[down2grow]

I'm gonna pull the trigger and get a quest dehumidifier since sunlight supply is the distributor and I get 40% off at the store I shop at. Room dimensions is a 11x13, 4k lights, 32 three gallon pots getting about 20-25 gallons a day. Would the quest 105 be enough? With my intake and exhaust on 24/7 my room is reading 75 degress and 75% RH on my autopilot.

 

[p8triot]

best thread on this site

 

[meadowman]

anyone got a line on a humidifier? i need to go back n finish reading, i stopped because all the troll drama. hope a mod cleaned it up.

 

[HarvestMoon303]

anyone got a line on a humidifier? i need to go back n finish reading, i stopped because all the troll drama. hope a mod cleaned it up.

Lasko 1128 are about $90 and have few moving parts (water pump, fan). Holds 9 gal.

 

[DJM]

anyone got a line on a humidifier? i need to go back n finish reading, i stopped because all the troll drama. hope a mod cleaned it up.

this is what I use in all my rooms, no complaints at all, can get up to 80% in a 16 lighter no problem with proper air movement...I have a drum fan next to it mixing it into the rooms air..thats essential ime...it can put out 10 gals a day easy , I have it hooked directly to waterline, but if doing that you need to turn the faucet down most of the way to a slow flow or the pressure of water can make the internal floatvalve get stuck in shutoff position...I clean it with bleach between runs...I have 0ppm well water or id use an ro stock tank with pump on a valve to top it off, I wouldn't use tap over 100ppms

http://www.hydrogalaxy.com/hvac-cli...nts-700860/?gclid=CLrxmb_dqdECFU5LDQodZJYGrg#


this is also a quality one


http://www.supplyhouse.com/Trion-70...g-Humidifier?gclid=CLzjgrndqdECFYhKDQod0bYI_A


stay away from any lowes or hd brand whole house humidifier. they couldn't boost a 10x10 15%

 

[DJM]

Hey DJM,

Just finished reading through the 89 pages of this thread, just gotta repeat what others have said multiple times...Thankyou. This thread has blown my mind and the positive effect it could have on my life will be unmeasurable. Your a freakin saint for sharing this knowledge, most people wouldn't do this.

I have a couple questions I hope you could answer as I have a very similar set up to you and actually follow some of the same principles as you already (larger footprint for lighting then the so called norm and filling up my space completely with plants and putting in the extra work, I handwater and have to crawl for the most part). I've been handwatering for years and was looking for a way to set up an automated watering system when I came upon this thread and it is a godsend, I have tried them before but been growing in pro-mix and you just have to be so on point with watering amount in peat moss that each plant needs to get slightly different amounts it just never worked. Now that I've seen the abilities of coco I'm sold. My problem is I'm vertically challenged in my grow space with 6' ceilings and even lower where the beams are (in a basement) I'm wondering.

1) How far away is your canopy from those lights at the end? I've been running verticle bare bulbs because I find horizontal reflectors put so much heat towards the plant I just don't have the height to have a good 2' of space between the light and canopy unless I grow a SOG which I don't want to do. I recently started experimenting with parabolic reflectors and verticle bulbs with a custom setup (bulb hang further out of reflector) I can get them within a foot without the canopy being too hot and not getting more than 80 klux at the plant height. The main strain I grow seems to handle light intensity over 80 klux but I'd like to keep it lower cause funky shit starts to happen even still. Just curious how far your canopy is from the those vertizontals and if you think you could get them even closer?

2) on the same subjectby chance have you tried these?https://www.sunlightsupply.com/shop/bycategory/sun-system-reflectors/silver-sun-reflector

Just a little shallower parabolic, might be better for my setup as they might shed heat a little better and have a larger light spread at a shallower distance from canopy.

3) I'm a total newb when it comes to autowatering and I believe this may have been answered elsewhere but basically you have pepco 2GPH bubblers running 2 1/4" lines to each plant ya?

4) You mentioned in a post you had some sort of relief valve in your reservoir or something? Can you elaborate on that? I couldn't begin to understand what that would be for.

5) Is your trellising tied together yourself or is that outta the bag? Looks custom by the pics

Thanks a bunch again and sorry if these questions were answered already. The eyes go a little cross after so many hours of reading

truly my pleasure...ill be retired from growing cannabis within the year and i wont be maintaining any threads or feeds after that as id rather have nothing to do with the new industry, so its nice to leave something behind for the next generation to build upon, even if most are unappreciative of it...as when I see how many people this thread has helped, it makes It worth it...unfortunately in this day and age most people would rather sell info than share it, this is the characteristic of someone who really isn't to skilled at growing in the first place , or else they wouldn't need to prostitute info...those that are good at growing make enough off of that to not need to sell anything else, like t shirts and how to guides, or bunk ass genetics ...ive tried to stay true to the overgrow roots of over growing the government and free knowledge...it seems that I may be one of the very few that has stayed true to that as most have just switched to growing FOR the government for a steady paycheck and bragging rights on hundred light warehouse grows they see pennies from...and do nothing to give back to community.....ill cut my own hand off before I sell out like that...many have said I didn't live up to my potential because I haven't teamed up with millionaires to do some huge grows and build a brand for myself...but that's not why I got into this in the first place..i do it to feed my family, not my ego or some investors check book....I truly appreciate everyone in this thread that shows support and love for what ive shared


1....I dont like closer than 18 inches and ideal would be 24 inches away..vertizontals run cooler than any boxed hood ive used as the heat is dissipated greatly..lots of air movement helps push out the heat from under the umbrella and mix it with the rooms air evenly before it can reach the canopy

2....I have used those, I have them in my veg room..they look less bright than the sun systems I use but that may be just visually as more light is reflected down off the hood..im not sure , and I haven't used them in flower so I cant really compare..but ive used a few vertizontals and there isn't much a difference in sq foot spread or light intensity as long as they are 48 inch vertizontals..so I think youd be fine with them..they work just the same in veg


3....no, I use a 4 site manifold from home depot with the rubber stopper removed which is what limits its gpm...I have each manifold feeding 2 plants with 2 drippers per plant and each dripper is either an open 1/4 inch line or a 1/4 inch line with an open 1/4 inch T at the end...this turns two drippers into 4 points of water, giving better coverage with less drippers per plant...depending on the room and circumstance I may or may not use the Ts...octobubblers works great too but just overkill for this set up and configuration..if I was running more plants , id use those...if I run 1 plant per light, I put one manifold per plant and use 4 drippers per plant as they are in larger pots in that situation


4....in my rez I have what is refered to as an anti syphon valve..there are many ways to do it, you can even buy some pre made...I do a simple version of this that also serves to aerate the rezs water.....
in my rez the pump is plumbed with 1/2 inch pvc...it comes up out of the water and then horizontally across the water to the outside of rez and then elbowed back down to the floor leading to the drippers....in the horizontal piece of pvc that sits above the water in rez, I simple drill a small 1/8-1/4 inch hole in this section of pvc on the underside of the pipe...when water is moved from pump through pvc line, water shoots out of this hole, right back down into the water in the reservoir....when the pump turns off , air will be pulled into this hole due to the negative vacuum that the pump creates in the water line..this reverses the negative vacuum back to neutral...if you don't use an anti syphon valve, when you turn your pump off, the negative pressured vacuum in the water line will continue to pull water out of the rez, through the line , passively...causing your rez to be drained completely long after your pump is turned off and can lead to serious floods and overwatering...I don't take many pictures anymore these days but ill try to get a picture of it up if youre still unclear about it...just do some research on anti syphon valves and you should get a good idea


5....yes youre correct, I get 2 - 5 foot x 30 foot trellises and tie them together to create a 10 foot wide trellis...then add more on to create desired length if over 30 feet...I use the extra strings on each end of trellises to tie them together...its fairly easy to do once you get the hang of it and unravel the trellises properly


hope that helps