Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[softyellowlight]

Good deal Cannabologist, I can vision it, The cells that are already there dividing and growing.... I think of culture like an advanced liquid to make sense of it.

​

Halfway through I got to thinking of possible degradation happening metaphysically though, Not all disease and dysfunction is biological and when an advanced hybridization process like procreation is cut off whatever cause could be considered a defectant on said plants. My thinking of it is in general, no big deal, life plays it's cards right but it does play them quicker and more accurate to get to point B and point C and point D through procreation. Generations thereafter would be better off, (at least for x amount of years), when compared to clones if they are anywhat capable of adapting.

Capability of adaptation through genetic selection is also known as "survival of the fittest." It is not about certain individuals surviving better by themselves adapting, but an overall increase of hardiness traits resulting in greater chance to carry reproduction through. The genetic recombination (sexual reproduction, producing seeds) is what allows for diversion from an existing set of genetics.

 

[highonmt]

- There is a lot to go over in this thread but suffice to say what many have said is wrong.

- Plants do not lose telomeres over time, and they certainly will not and do not lose telomeres from the act of making a cutting of a plant.

- Plants do not mutate simply because you made a cutting.

- Shoot and root meristems, so long as they are not damaged or infected by a pathogen, will effectively divide forever.

- Genes don't "magically" degrade because you take clones.

- Genes are not lost because you made a cutting of a plant.

- A plant is not going to loses because you made a cutting of it, nor will the cutting lose genes or telomeres.

- Mutations and changes in phenotypic expression are different from the kinds of "loss" in genes, or "degradation" (loss of telomeres) people are describing here.

- Some organisms don't lose telomeres, and they also do not appear to suffer deleterious effects from environmental factors, like UVb radiation. Plants, and even some higher organisms, like turtles and tortoises, do not lose telomeres, and thus, do not "age". Plants achieve senesense because of hormonal changes triggered by changes in the season (ie. photoperiod). No change in season (ie. a flowering photoperiod), senescence is never reached.

- Most plants in the wild are exposed to UV radiation constantly within their lifetime being outdoors and exposed to the sun. Think of the many trees, grasses, and other plants you see. These do not mutate being exposed to the sun's UV radiation all their lives (but they do adapt over time to environmental changes...). Most cannabis plants are kept indoors away from environmental changes and UV radiation and pathogens etc, etc, and so thus being in a more controlled environment is already "set up" in conditions that will steer away from any kind of changes that could be incurred by the plant via an environmental mechanism.

- Many cultivated plants we use and eat are clones of clones, and they do not "degrade", lose genes or telomeres. Why? Because that doesn't happen with plants.

- Cannabis is a plant, it does not lose telomeres.

- More on all this, and mutations over time and epigenetic changes and phenotypic changes over time, and their impacts, later.

Plants are equipped with telomerase enzymes that repair telomeres after they lose length during mitosis; that should be a no brainer for a cannabologist. Most plants show little or no telomerase activity during vegetative growth most show increased telomerase activity during flowering. All organisms that have a nucleus (eukaryote) have telomers and all organisms that have telomeres lose telomere length during dna replication in mitosis (cell division) . If you have other evidence please share it and pack your bags for Sweden. I have not seen a review of the activity of telomerase enzymes in cannabis but if you think that the length of telomeres in cannabis does not change you are..well...just plain wrong.
HM

 

[highonmt]

- There is a lot to go over in this thread but suffice to say what many have said is wrong.

- Plants do not lose telomeres over time, and they certainly will not and do not lose telomeres from the act of making a cutting of a plant.

- Plants do not mutate simply because you made a cutting.

- Shoot and root meristems, so long as they are not damaged or infected by a pathogen, will effectively divide forever.

- Genes don't "magically" degrade because you take clones.

- Genes are not lost because you made a cutting of a plant.

- A plant is not going to loses because you made a cutting of it, nor will the cutting lose genes or telomeres.

- Mutations and changes in phenotypic expression are different from the kinds of "loss" in genes, or "degradation" (loss of telomeres) people are describing here.

- Some organisms don't lose telomeres, and they also do not appear to suffer deleterious effects from environmental factors, like UVb radiation. Plants, and even some higher organisms, like turtles and tortoises, do not lose telomeres, and thus, do not "age". Plants achieve senesense because of hormonal changes triggered by changes in the season (ie. photoperiod). No change in season (ie. a flowering photoperiod), senescence is never reached.

- Most plants in the wild are exposed to UV radiation constantly within their lifetime being outdoors and exposed to the sun. Think of the many trees, grasses, and other plants you see. These do not mutate being exposed to the sun's UV radiation all their lives (but they do adapt over time to environmental changes...). Most cannabis plants are kept indoors away from environmental changes and UV radiation and pathogens etc, etc, and so thus being in a more controlled environment is already "set up" in conditions that will steer away from any kind of changes that could be incurred by the plant via an environmental mechanism.

- Many cultivated plants we use and eat are clones of clones, and they do not "degrade", lose genes or telomeres. Why? Because that doesn't happen with plants.

- Cannabis is a plant, it does not lose telomeres.

- More on all this, and mutations over time and epigenetic changes and phenotypic changes over time, and their impacts, later.

Plants are equipped with telomerase enzymes that repair telomeres after they lose length during mitosis; that should be a no brainer for a cannabologist. Most plants show little or no telomerase activity during vegetative growth most show increased telomerase activity during flowering. All organisms that have a nucleus (eukaryote) have telomers and all organisms that have telomeres lose telomere length during dna replication in mitosis (cell division) . If you have other evidence please share it. I have not seen a review of the activity of telomerase enzymes in cannabis but if you think that the length of telomeres in cannabis does not change you are..well...just plain wrong. The role that telomers take in plant aging are not well understood but it is certainly another aspect to keep in mind when discussing the keeping of annual plants for long periods.
Here is a link to a review of plant aging and telomeres
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...e=254927&ProduktNr=224091&filename=310174.pdf
HM

 

[spunion]

If chemdawg is a clone only strain...

 

[ShroomDr]

highonmt by your logic, a reveg plant is a better than a clone. You are the only one advancing this logic.

So either your science is essentially inapplicable and Sam_the_skunkman is correct, or your opening new doors in MJ botany.

My money is on Sam and his EXPERIENCE.

 

[2cents]

Clones of clones of clones for 20+ years is no problem as long as the plants are well maintained and virus free.

I also believe this to be correct.

 

[Jaymer]

I also believe this to be correct.

p.s. - at disadvantage of competing with said ailments when compared to seed grown generations, the neutrality stands as degradation. You can't be neutral on a moving train - Howard Zinn

 

[Cainea]

I did clones of clones of clones for well over two years with no decline in yield or visual appearance. I did loose the strain to some root-rot though which is purely my own fault for building the worst DWC bucket ever for the mother to live in

 

[Cannabologist]

Plants are equipped with telomerase enzymes that repair telomeres after they lose length during mitosis; that should be a no brainer for a cannabologist. Most plants show little or no telomerase activity during vegetative growth most show increased telomerase activity during flowering. All organisms that have a nucleus (eukaryote) have telomers and all organisms that have telomeres lose telomere length during dna replication in mitosis (cell division) . If you have other evidence please share it. I have not seen a review of the activity of telomerase enzymes in cannabis but if you think that the length of telomeres in cannabis does not change you are..well...just plain wrong. The role that telomers take in plant aging are not well understood but it is certainly another aspect to keep in mind when discussing the keeping of annual plants for long periods.
Here is a link to a review of plant aging and telomeres
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...e=254927&ProduktNr=224091&filename=310174.pdf

- I still have a large response I am preparing for this discussion, but I have recently gone over that article you posted highonmt. I must ask, did you thoroughly read the article? The other evidence I have to your claims is in fact the very articles you have been posting in this thread. I do not think you have been reading over your sources very well.

- Have been preparing a response that pulls many direct quotes from that article above, I will direct everyone to a few here that are pertinent:

"... In annual plants, leaf senescence is tightly associated
with death of the whole plant...

... In monocarpic annual plants, telomerase activity appears to correlate with cell proliferation, as the highest activity is detected in meristematic [FONT=&quot] tissues and reproductive organs[/FONT]...

... Analysis of tobacco cell cultures [FONT=&quot] revealed that telomerase activity is specifically expressed during S-phase[/FONT]...

... Secondly, studies in the monocarpic plants Arabidopsis , tobacco and white campion indicate that telomeres do not undergo detectable replicative shortening during development...

...The final argument against the role of telomeres in plant senescence is the fact that telomere dysfunction in Arabidopsis does not lead to a massive early [FONT=&quot] onset of leaf senescence.[/FONT]..

...seed production is tightly coupled with leaf senescence in monocarpic plants. [- And seed production is caused ultimately by photoperiod shift which tells the plant it’s time to stop putting so much energy into vegetating and making leaves and storing energy and now shift that energy you stored towards making seeds.] ...Thus, telomeres seem not to play an important role for leaf senescence in monocarpic[FONT=&quot] plants.[/FONT] "


- Seriously, did you read the study you posted to me? I am very happy you posted it, it is a great find, and proves that clones of annual plants will not age or degrade over time so long as they are vegetated indefinitely. But I think next time you should go over what you post before you make a claim that is the opposite of what the article is actually saying.

 

[cliffy]

I dunno wtf any u guys are talking about. Mono this...analysis that...arabidopsis everywhere...geeze I'm confused! Just take a goddamn cutting and be done w/ it. It'll last for decades and be fine.

 

[highonmt]

highonmt by your logic, a reveg plant is a better than a clone. You are the only one advancing this logic.

So either your science is essentially inapplicable and Sam_the_skunkman is correct, or your opening new doors in MJ botany.

My money is on Sam and his EXPERIENCE.

I know that a clone of clone line will last 20+ years like I've said I've seen it and there is plenty of growers who've done it as well. I have never even implied that a reveg is better I don't know where you picked that up. Reveg will work 1x but clones will work 1000's if not 10000's of times. The point I'm trying to make is that there is another aspect to clone degradation which the other folks had not addressed. Like I've said repeatedly this is just a theory and the degree that telomere loss plays in cell line aging in cannabis is unknown but should not be overlooked IMO as it plays an important role in the aging process of most organisms. I have nothing but respect for Sam but there are some people who are good growers who've seen clones form yea to neigh in only a few clone generations something is causing this and telomeric aging could very well be part of the process. I have played the game of science for a long time and I'll stick with my hunch that oxidative stress, which is known to reduce telomere length faster than mitotic shorting, is a factor in the degradation of some cannabis lines. Good Karma for putting SSM's name in bold. I'm about to sprout 6 of his beans this week.
HM

 

[highonmt]

- I still have a large response I am preparing for this discussion, but I have recently gone over that article you posted highonmt. I must ask, did you thoroughly read the article? The other evidence I have to your claims is in fact the very articles you have been posting in this thread. I do not think you have been reading over your sources very well.

- Have been preparing a response that pulls many direct quotes from that article above, I will direct everyone to a few here that are pertinent:

"... In annual plants, leaf senescence is tightly associated
with death of the whole plant...

... In monocarpic annual plants, telomerase activity appears to correlate with cell proliferation, as the highest activity is detected in meristematic [FONT=&quot] tissues and reproductive organs[/FONT]...

... Analysis of tobacco cell cultures [FONT=&quot] revealed that telomerase activity is specifically expressed during S-phase[/FONT]...

... Secondly, studies in the monocarpic plants Arabidopsis , tobacco and white campion indicate that telomeres do not undergo detectable replicative shortening during development...

...The final argument against the role of telomeres in plant senescence is the fact that telomere dysfunction in Arabidopsis does not lead to a massive early [FONT=&quot] onset of leaf senescence.[/FONT]..

...seed production is tightly coupled with leaf senescence in monocarpic plants. [- And seed production is caused ultimately by photoperiod shift which tells the plant it’s time to stop putting so much energy into vegetating and making leaves and storing energy and now shift that energy you stored towards making seeds.] ...Thus, telomeres seem not to play an important role for leaf senescence in monocarpic[FONT=&quot] plants.[/FONT] "


- Seriously, did you read the study you posted to me? I am very happy you posted it, it is a great find, and proves that clones of annual plants will not age or degrade over time so long as they are vegetated indefinitely. But I think next time you should go over what you post before you make a claim that is the opposite of what the article is actually saying.

I did read it and, your fancy pants cut n paste efforts about leaf senescence has little to do with what I'm suggesting. I have at no point claimed that telomers are playing a pivotal role in the degeredation of clones. If you would drop the attitude you'd realize that I am saying it is possible and even quite probable. If you would go back and re read the study you felt you needed to cut and paste up to prove you are right I am wrong, you would realize that the role of telomers in plant aging is not well understood at all and this fact is noted.. Nothing in this article refutes my theory that cell line senescence quite possibly due to telomeric loss is another aspect of clone line degredation that should not be discounted. What the heck does leaf senescene have to do with this discussion anyway; the leaves of a plant almost completely lack cellular division once formed so leaf senescence is not a good parallel to what is being discussed. I am theorizing that CELL LINE degradation caused by telomere shortenign is a cause of loss of vigor and or potency in cannabis this is quite different than leaf senescence...which can by the way be manipulated to the benifit of the grower. If a cannabis plant undergoes leaf senescence at the end of life it has little or nothing to do with the phenomenon of genetic degradation in cloned cannabis lines. They aint dropping leaves they are losing potency and vigor. Lest you forget a theory is an educated guess...not scripture. Lets do have a scientific discussion but leave out the attitude ok?
HM

 

[yourbuddy]

I can't imagine a 20 year old mother plant or clone would be good for breeding? Evolution/acclimatization. I'm sure they'd have a totally altered gene compared to an earlier clone's offspring?

 

[beta]

I can't imagine a 20 year old mother plant or clone would be good for breeding? Evolution/acclimatization. I'm sure they'd have a totally altered gene compared to an earlier clone's offspring?

Evolution happens over thousands and thousands of generations, not a single life cycle.

'Acclimatization' refers to a plant's ever changing response to its ever changing environment - It's not something that becomes 'set' over time..

 

[highonmt]

I can't imagine a 20 year old mother plant or clone would be good for breeding? Evolution/acclimatization. I'm sure they'd have a totally altered gene compared to an earlier clone's offspring?

It would be fine for breeding if it is still healthy and vigourous. If the plant has become degraded by mistreatment or some genetic flaw then it would not be a good candidate for breeding imo. As pointed out evolution requires the independent assortment of genes that occurs during sexual reproduction to produce plants that are outliers from the "normal" population. This process usually takes many generations to occur and usually requires an environmental shift that favors the "mutant" off spring. We are talking about clones which are genetically identical to the parent.
HM

 

[teemu shalanie]

I have had a fire PK cut from the coast for years, about 3 now, and cuts from cuts from cuts, has little to no effect on quality /yield. imo
TS

 

[Fillthavoid]

Treat the strain right and it never deforms!!!

 

[hurdy gurdy man]

Thirty-one pages of blather. It would appear from people's experience that degradation doesn't occur for our purposes.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Degradation can happen if the plant picks up a virus or other disease, that can include loss of vigor, smaller flowers, slow maturation, etc.
Or if the plant has been harmed severley, like almost dead from no water, or just a loss of vigor due to a very small pot for a very, very long time, lack of nutrients, or some other stress like regenerations from a flowering bud done several years in a row. Or a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone effect. If these causes of loss of vigor are reversable as I think, it is not as important as the diseases.
As you can see most loss is caused by neglect, rather then by mutation or the "Xerox" effect. The degredation/loss is phenotypical expression not Genotypical, I would say.
For my vegatative library I kept big plants slowly growing in the ground for almost a year before I would replace then with a new ones for back-up, If needed I would wack off the top half of the plant and just let them re-grow up to 20 feet. I also kept several small backups of each in a refridgerator, I did not lose any, ever.
-SamS

 

[squarepush3r]

Seeds still have taproot which provides for very healthy and deep root development (more so than clone)