Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[highonmt]

Marijuana is not a weed. Calling it 'a weedy little' anything implies a dis-ingenuousness.

What about Hops? Same, cannabaceae family & can be propagated vegetatively.

Im just wondering how deep your rabbit hole goes.. Trees, vines, how about a plant in the same family as MJ?

I dissagree, there is no dis-ingenuousness impied or expressed. The cannabis genus is well know to be an fairly aggressive colonizer of disturbed sights in this sense of the word it is most certainly a weed...and lucky for pre agrarian humans it is a weed as it likely "followed" humans about as it colonized abandoned village sights and midden heaps. No pejorative intended but in it's growth habit it's weedy, the powerline near my grandads farm in iowa would convince you of this if you saw it; almost nothing but hemp for miles..HM

 

[pip313]

I knew someone with NYCD it was so strong smelling that if you had a gram and walked in a house poeple would smell you in thier bedrooms with the doors closed and come out begging to smoke it. Then one day it lost its smell never to return. if it isn't genetic drift what caused it?

 

[highonmt]

I knew someone with NYCD it was so strong smelling that if you had a gram and walked in a house poeple would smell you in thier bedrooms with the doors closed and come out begging to smoke it. Then one day it lost its smell never to return. if it isn't genetic drift what caused it?

Enzyme deactivation of some ind is almost certainly what stopped the production of your aromatic esters and/or amines...what caused it? Hard to say...could it be telomere induced senescence of the cell line(s) in which the enzyme system existed? Perhaps a gene was switched on/off due to physical or environmental stress or lack thereof...or maybe something else. Experiences like yours are why this thread is so interesting.
HM

 

[beta]

Huh? I have a feeling 100 years worth of medical researchers would tend to disagree. What about a heart attack? The stress may end but it is the physical effects/ responses to stress that do cause many permanent problems in plants,humans, and almost all studied organisms.

"Myocardial infarction (MI) or acute myocardial infarction (AMI), commonly known as a heart attack, is the interruption of blood supply to a part of the heart, causing heart cells to die. This is most commonly due to occlusion (blockage) of a coronary artery following the rupture of a vulnerable atherosclerotic plaque, which is an unstable collection of lipids (fatty acids) and white blood cells (especially macrophages) in the wall of an artery. The resulting ischemia (restriction in blood supply) and oxygen shortage, if left untreated for a sufficient period of time, can cause damage or death (infarction) of heart muscle tissue (myocardium)." (via)

In other words, heart attacks are not the result of stress.

Here is a good experiment that I accidently tried. Take a mother plant...turn off the lights and drop the temperature to 40 and let the media dry out for 5 days...now turn on the lights revive the plant and clone it...in my experiment the resulting plants were spindly stretchy low yeilding hermie prone junk

I think you're conflating the hormonal confusion a cannabis plant goes through when it's light cycle / temperature are interrupted with the stress that results from it. Again, stress is the symptom here, not the cause.

There are of course other responces of plants to stress that are known to occur, among these are gene activation which is known to cause morphological changes in plants when stressed. When and if these genes are switched off and on is not well understood as far as I know.

If this process is not well understood, how do you know that it's stress causing the gene activation? I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it's not understood well enough to make a claim like that.

When the immune system ofwell supported. an organism is stimulated the production of compounds with oxidative potential is increased. If enough stress is applied (enough is an individual based measure
) the plant will lose telomere length and certain cell lines will undergo senescence.

But ONLY because the oxidative potential is increased. Again, you're confusing cause and effect. If you stressed the plant and the compounds with oxidative potential were not increased, would the plant still lose telomere length? Does all stress cause telomere shortening? I believe that the answer to both of those questions is a resounding no.

 

[beta]

.

 

[highonmt]

"Myocardial infarction (MI) or acute myocardial infarction (AMI), commonly known as a heart attack, is the interruption of blood supply to a part of the heart, causing heart cells to die. This is most commonly due to occlusion (blockage) of a coronary artery following the rupture of a vulnerable atherosclerotic plaque, which is an unstable collection of lipids (fatty acids) and white blood cells (especially macrophages) in the wall of an artery. The resulting ischemia (restriction in blood supply) and oxygen shortage, if left untreated for a sufficient period of time, can cause damage or death (infarction) of heart muscle tissue (myocardium)." (via).

YAAaa, I know what a heart attack is; I spent a year working of the design of drugs to treat mi.
If you say that stress does not cause heart attack you are severely mal-informed.. in fact it absolutely does. Stress increases blood pressure and increases the fat and cholesterol concentration of the blood among other things that in turn trigger heart attacks. Try convincing a cardiologist that stress doesn't cause HA.

"In other words, heart attacks are not the result of stress.."


No the physiological changes as a result of stress are what cause many heart attacks, it is well documented.
You're in essence saying that the fall of the last domino in the line is not caused by the first





"I think you're conflating the hormonal confusion a cannabis plant goes through when it's light cycle / temperature are interrupted with the stress that results from it. Again, stress is the symptom here, not the cause. "

Hormone expression is well know to be regulated by genes, some of which will switch on and off as a result of stress to the organism.

Stress in biological terms is the inability of a plant or organism to respond adequately to external or internal stimuli. It is a matter of semantics that you are arguing here. If a plant is left cold and dark it becomes stressed. In response to this stress there are many physiological changes that occur some irreversible if a limit is exceeded.




"If this process is not well understood, how do you know that it's stress causing the gene activation? I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it's not understood well enough to make a claim like that.."

Because there are hundreds of papers on the subject google It is not well understood because we as scientists just haven't figured it all out yet.

."But ONLY because the oxidative potential is increased. Again, you're confusing cause and effect. If you stressed the plant and the compounds with oxidative potential were not increased, would the plant still lose telomere length? Does all stress cause telomere shortening? I believe that the answer to both of those questions is a resounding no."

No it is merely a matter of semantics. Stress in plants has been described by using the model of physical stress borrowed from physics. The elastic modulus is defined as stress/strain which is equal to force/deformation. So as long as the stress is below the elastic limit of the systems to which it is applied they will return to the normal state. Once past this limit the change is plastic ie irreversible and causes damage to the plant. Plant Ecology by Shulze et all 2005 explains the effects of stress on plants very well.
If enough stress is applied it causes a series of events to occur that may result in telomere shortening..which in turn causes cell line senescence..thus the result of stress can be cell line degradation. Are you a philosophy student?... Just kidding thanks for the reply interesting concepts here.
HM

 

[Yes_I_Am]

my 2 cents,

i think its strain dependant, i have a mango cut that started to hermi after the 5th clone of a clone, no stress it never done it first 4 times round 3 growers had the same thing happen hermi at clone generation 5, its the only strain ive had do this, i keep many cuts so i keep small plants as soon as on grows i take a cut and flower it. ive done it for years with no ill effects, apart from the one mango cut.,

cheers for your time, peace

 

[decarboxylator]

how is this thread not dead yet?

 

[Jaymer]

"overspecialize and you breed in weakness", puppet masters complaint at the end of ghost in the shell was only being able to make copies and copies of copies.

 

[Jaymer]

I don't consider plant cuttings to be true clones at all because a new root system cultured is capable of adapting with new media that coincides with the existing branch. Is enough adaptability provided to offset genetic ailment's? maybe, seeding seems to be the top choice of marijuana because the benefit of numbers and variance provides larger success ratios.

 

[ShroomDr]

how is this thread not dead yet?

Inapplicable science vs. experience, examples, and common sense?

Trees, vines, and plants in the same family can do it, but MJ is special, it cant...




MJ is not a weed! Weeds are invasive, my lawn is a prolific dandelion farm, it requires no help, and the south is being covered by Kudzu (aka the vine that ate the South).


MJ is really only an annual in outdoor environments. From the argument being presented against it, a re-vegged plant is better than a cloned one. (FWIW there is a grower on this forum, whos name i cannot remember, that re-vegges exclusively, for years and years, and claims no problems).



Im not trying to call anyone out, but your lack of understanding of the definition of what a 'weed' is, only serves to highlight that copy & paste are your two best friends.
In theory your correct, a plant cant get better, leaving only one direction, but in practicality its just not applicable (especially given Sam's and others experiences). This isnt a photocopy machine, its mother nature.

 

[decarboxylator]

when people say MJ is a weed, I think they have a little validity. We grow inbred and heavily selected varieties to smoke, cultivars. But I've seen hemp (from back before all this silly prohibition when everyone grew) growing in old abandoned farms without help, like a "weed". Can't the Cannabis genus encompass both a weed and a rare intensely bred high-end cultivar?

 

[ShroomDr]

when people say MJ is a weed, I think they have a little validity.

Fair enough... but if i planted a field of tomatoes, didnt harvest all the fruits, next year there would be tomatoes in the field.

Are tomatoes a 'weed'?


====


Invasive is the key word when it comes to the definition of a weed. Does MJ dominate the other plants in its non-native ecosystem? No, not really; its competitive, but not really dominate.

Heres are some pics of kudzu, do you think this falls into the category of competitive or dominant?

 

[DocLeaf]

when people say MJ is a weed.

A weed is just a plant that grows in the places that other plants (and people) disdain

This leaves loads of scope for adaptation.. since all domesticated plants are but the captive ancestors of their wild counter-parts.

We've seen the seeds of ganja weed growing ferral in some random places before (as the result of people building a spliff and the seeds falling to the floor)... from car boots to river banks ,, from under bird feeders to public phone boxes .. so NEVER underestimate the adaptability of the ganja weed to grow wild

Cannabis clones however do not naturally persist in nature at least

peace

 

[Weed-Luver]

much agreed docleaf..that's how plants pop up in places they never grew before..bird eats seed, bird migrates to south eastern US, poops out seed from south america and whalla a new species of flower, berry ect.ect. grows in a new environment and adapts..of course wind, storms and other means can send seeds of species for 100's of miles on their own to..
i believe weed is an natural annual but as some annuals have been domesticated of sorts to grow in pots and repeatedly flower, i.e artificial environment..adaption, mother nature will find a way to survive..Always..

 

[420247]

Invasive is the key word when it comes to the definition of a weed. Does MJ dominate the other plants in its non-native ecosystem? No, not really; its competitive, but not really dominate.

Thats not true...

Marijuana: In Annual Harvest Roundup, 98% of All Marijuana Seizures Are Ditchweed

by Phillip Smith, September 07, 2006, 10:23pm, (Issue #452)

According to official DEA figures, police seized an estimated 223 million marijuana plants last year. But 219 million of them, or 98%, were ditchweed. That figure is in line with previous years. And a whopping 212 million plants came from Indiana alone. Missouri came in second with 4.5 million plants, Kansas third with 1.1 million, and Wisconsin fourth with 272,000

.

“weed” (not weed as in “weed, dude” but weed as in “you can never make it stop growing because it’s Satan’s Flower, will survive a nuclear holocaust and will even outgrow zucchini”)

Feral hemp (ditchweed or wild Cannabis), which grows uncultivated across the Midwest, is the remnants of this lost germplasm. It is being eradicated under DEA's Domestic Cannabis Eradication/Suppression Program (DCE/SP). The DCE/SP's objective is to "conduct programs of eradication aimed at destroying wild or illicit growth of plants from which controlled substances may be extracted." This amazing resource should instead be collected, cataloged, and preserved!

The author makes a distinction between ditchweed and cultivated marijuana in this story as well Drugs found near Salem in statewide removal plan:


"Troopers also are responsible for removing wild hemp plants, which were grown under government sanction more than half a century ago to produce rope for World War II naval operations. Last year they removed more than 200 million wild marijuana plants in Northern Indiana."


Though the 200,000,000 plants number seems a little far-fetched to me. In the DEA Briefs & Background, Drugs and Drug Abuse, State Factsheets, Indiana they reported that "As a result of DEA's Domestic Cannabis Eradication/Suppression Program, the Indiana State Police eradicated 220,000,000 plants growing wild in northern Indiana." According to the official numbers (from a table adapted by SOURCEBOOK staff from table provided by the U.S. Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration) from the Sourcebook of criminal justice statistics Online the number that Indiana reported to DEA was 219,124,925 ditchweed plants eradicated. The next highest number of plants eradicated was Oklahoma with 9,995,153 plants. In the Vermont State Auditor - Cannabis Eradication Report the State of Indiana reported 30,087,547 ditchweed plants eradicated in their 1996 Domestic Cannabis Eradication/Suppression Program (DCE/SP) Results. So, to go from 30,087,547 plants in 1996 to 219,124,925 in 2003 is quite a jump. What are they using to harvest this bumper crop with, combines?

Comments:
out here in rural kansas ditchweed grows like crazy. There's an old lady that lives not to far from here that has about an acre growing on her property. It seems like these plants usually follow along creeks and rivers about 10 feet from the bank. Some of the plants are definitely in the 4 m range.

# posted by Anonymous : 6:13 PM

I am currently working in Northern Kansas off of Highway 283 North and County Road C 2 miles from the stateline and there is a gross abundance of wild marijuana growing there. I am positve that within the small area of the job(only 2 square miles)there is at least enough untended ditch weed to occupie a 10 acre plot.

# posted by Anonymous : 12:42 PM

weed
–noun
1. a valueless plant growing wild, especially one that grows on cultivated ground to the exclusion or injury of the desired crop.
2. any undesirable or troublesome plant, especially one that grows profusely where it is not wanted: The vacant lot was covered with weeds.

Any unwanted plant is a weed LOL

 

[decarboxylator]

Semantics!!!! YAY! But seriously. The statement that marijuana is a weed in not accurate. Same with saying that marijuana is not a weed. It's both, depending on it's history.

Comparing to Kudzu, is not fair. That sh*t is the king of the invasive/take over species, and has a way different growth pattern (vines). Also, since Cannabis is not dispersed via wind, that makes it different from most of the "weed" species. But there is most def wild grown herb that has acclimated naturally to the great outdoors.

My experience with wild hemp, is that it does dominate and take over disturbed areas (like a "weed). It grows so tall, so fast, that it creates dense monocultures, outcompeting anything else around it. Tell you what. I was arrested with pounds of hemp back in high school (no charges filed). It grows by itself, monstrously.

 

[420247]

Semantics!!!! YAY! But seriously. The statement that marijuana is a weed in not accurate. Same with saying that marijuana is not a weed. It's both, depending on it's history.

Comparing to Kudzu, is not fair. That sh*t is the king of the invasive/take over species, and has a way different growth pattern (vines). Also, since Cannabis is not dispersed via wind, that makes it different from most of the "weed" species. But there is most def wild grown herb that has acclimated naturally to the great outdoors.

My experience with wild hemp, is that it does dominate and take over disturbed areas (like a "weed). It grows so tall, so fast, that it creates dense monocultures, outcompeting anything else around it. Tell you what. I was arrested with pounds of hemp back in high school (no charges filed). It grows by itself, monstrously.

Has nothing to do with plant type...

If you want the plant and/or it holds value to you, its not a weed...

If you dont want the plant and/or it holds no value to you, its a weed...

All plants can be both

 

[ShroomDr]

'Ditchweed' is from people planting HUGE hemp fields.

Im done with this, invasive is one of the KEY QUALIFIERS for being a 'weed'. Calling MJ 'a weedy little annual' is the EXACT same as calling an abandoned / 'gone feral' tomato field, a 'weedy little annual'. Same with an abandoned wheat field, soybeans, etc, etc.

Wheat, soybeans, nor tomatos are considered weeds, however Doc is somewhat accurate, if you dont want tomatoes in your garden, they would qualify for 'weed' status. If you dont like your tulips, they are a 'weed' to you.

i sincerely doubt that if someone threw a couple of their MJ seeds in ground, that 20-30 years from now the MJ would have taken everything else over around it.

If your upwind neighbor doesnt kill his dandelions, you will have dandelions, guaranteed.

None of this has anything to do with the thread subject, feel free to take Sam_the_Skunkman's word for it, im done.

-fin

 

[420247]

'Ditchweed' is from people planting HUGE hemp fields.

Im done with this, invasive is one of the KEY QUALIFIERS for being a 'weed'. Calling MJ 'a weedy little annual' is the EXACT same as calling an abandoned / 'gone feral' tomato field, a 'weedy little annual'. Same with an abandoned wheat field, soybeans, etc, etc.

Wheat, soybeans, nor tomatos are considered weeds, however Doc is somewhat accurate, if you dont want tomatoes in your garden, they would qualify for 'weed' status. If you dont like your tulips, they are a 'weed' to you.

i sincerely doubt that if someone threw a couple of their MJ seeds in ground, that 20-30 years from now the MJ would have taken everything else over around it.

If your upwind neighbor doesnt kill his dandelions, you will have dandelions, guaranteed.

None of this has anything to do with the thread subject, feel free to take Sam_the_Skunkman's word for it, im done.

-fin

Are you saying a "weed" has to "take everything else over around it."

How long ago do you think those hemp fields were planted? "20-30 years" LOL

Even a mighty dandelion will not "take everything else over around it." LOL

BTW plants have many more allies than just wind for seed dispersal LOL