Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[Sam_Skunkman]

And does the tap root protect them from Degradation?
If you keep the seedling alive under 24 hours light without flowering, will it grow and live forever?
Do you think it is better to take clones from seedlings, or from a clone or no difference?
What is better a seedling kept vegatative for 5 years? Or a clone just made from a brand new seedling or from another clone?
Do you reallly think it makes a difference?
I do think the health and vigor of the seedling or clone is what matters as well as the variety.
Most seeds sold are made from clones not seedlings, is that good or bad? Would seeds made from seed started plants be better then if made from clones? How?
-SamS

Seeds still have taproot which provides for very healthy and deep root development (more so than clone)

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

regardless of age and abuse (virus's not withstanding) a clone of a clone is identical to a clone of the initial seed mom. viruss could explain "genetic degradation" but its not possible that a clone would acclimate to an environment or change dna to some how be a different pheno or a stunted version. identical in every way except for the possibility of carrying a systemic pathogen. acclimation occurs when off spring gain reproductive success more often because of a specific trait and thus increase their genetics into the gene pool by the simple mechanism of having a higher number of babies who then also breed more offspring if they carry the trait. it doesnt change an individual plants dna to expose it to new enviroments but it may cause the plant to temporarily acclimate itsself t anew hotter colder more or less arid enviroment through opening closing stomattas or other physical response mechanisms. however that would not make its cloned offspring more or less hardy. it be like saying that children would be more prone to goose bumps if their parents conceived them in the snow. genetic drift is pure myth. anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. this has been beat to death in the forums and is pretty well decided as bunk by scientific genetic theory as well as experience

 

[Dropped Cat]

clones of annual plants will not age or degrade over time so long as they are vegetated indefinitely

This got my attention.

When the cannabis has flowered, harvested, and
returned to veg, what possible outcomes to future
cuttings can be anticipated?

I've noticed not so subtle differences in the new cuttings,
but I don't know what mechanisms are involved.

Good thread!

 

[gobyebye]

this is an old wives tale. theres people who have been taking clones of clones for years and years..the only way that you can get a plant that degrades from cloning, is by taking a cutting from plant while its is going through synessence. everything else is a lie..lol

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

annual plants in flower dont normally return to veg in agriculture or nature. cannabis in specific circumstances can be and occasionally is forced to.if you succeed in returning it to a state of vegetavie grow the rules stated above do too. the above quote sounds like a general rule pertaining to typical conditions. revegging is an anomally not generally discussed or practiced in horticulture but it would in this case be an exception to that rule.i am revegging a forum cut as we speak i will clone it like normal and it will be the same as its sisters once it is putting on vegitative growth.

clones of annual plants will not age or degrade over time so long as they are vegetated indefinitely

This got my attention.

When the cannabis has flowered, harvested, and
returned to veg, what possible outcomes to future
cuttings can be anticipated?

I've noticed not so subtle differences in the new cuttings,
but I don't know what mechanisms are involved.

Good thread!

 

[LostTribe]

I also tend to believe that clone to clone degradation only occurs if a cutting is taken from a sick plant.

 

[jmeds]

You can clone a clone over and over and will still have the exact same genetic make up as the original. I too have heard the folklore regarding mothers, cloning, degradation, etc. The proof is in the pudding. I ran OG Kush and Ken's Grandaddy from 2004-2012 and it never changed. The only time there was a change was when environmental conditions were not ideal or human error on my part. Even when my mothers/clones were sick, after nursing back to health they remained the same. Each grow is an opportunity to learn. It is about providing the optimal environment, not "growing" the plant that matters most. The plant does that on its own. Happy growing.

 

[St. Phatty]

Some really helpful thoughts here !


For me part of the moral of the clone story ... if you value a plant, keep more than one clone of it.

I suppose that is self-evident but I really blew it with a favorite Sativa by not having a duplicate.

 

[HyeFarm559]

I have had instances where a mother was perfectly healthy, and the clones came out mutated, growing wierd 1 blade leaves, and some odd 3 blade leaves. I'm guessing some type of stressor in the cloning process sparked them into doing this. They stayed mutated for quite a while... And then finally snapped out of it and started growing normal leaves again.

 

[Aksala]

My experience

My experience

I've been growing the same strain for about 8 years and I don't keep moms. I have a perpetual garden and I grab clones off plants before I put them into flower. The strain is 100% identical to the first time I grew it.

 

[cr0n]

I've been growing the same strain for about 8 years and I don't keep moms. I have a perpetual garden and I grab clones off plants before I put them into flower. The strain is 100% identical to the first time I grew it.

My experience is the same. Been growing one of my selections since 2002, It's still the same.

 

[mojave green]

I have had instances where a mother was perfectly healthy, and the clones came out mutated, growing wierd 1 blade leaves, and some odd 3 blade leaves. I'm guessing some type of stressor in the cloning process sparked them into doing this. They stayed mutated for quite a while... And then finally snapped out of it and started growing normal leaves again.

I have also experienced this.

 

[highsociety420]

Some people here havent understood the thread. It is not about the degradation of the DNA, it doesnt really happen (actually what happens is the degradation of the telomere of the plant cell, but its about its natural death and doesnt really matter). The point here is about the losing vigor of the plant after cloned, which im divided about it.

For one side makes sense the clone loses its vigor. The meristem(cola) doesnt produce the same amount of hormones as the apical meristem(top cola). So the clone wouldnt have the same vigor, unless it someway changes itself after cutted (the growth of the roots is because of acumulation of hormones in the cutted area).

For other side how would people have maintaned those clones for a long time and they are still good?

I really couldnt explane the second side, but i dont doubt its possible. Cant say by my self because i have never cloned and kept it. Constantly searching

 

[Chunkypigs]

Kevin talks about the fallacy of "genetic drift" at about 6 minutes in this video.

the "secret" to maintaining vigor in old clone onlys is full sun with supplemental in GH for moms.

[YOUTUBEIF]f-uWnV0hA8c[/YOUTUBEIF]

this video with Kevin of Wonderland nursery explains everything about cloning from a plant science perspective.

very helpful.
[YOUTUBEIF]gANNEB4ZbX0[/YOUTUBEIF]

 

[kanzzzz]

A very intresting topic , lots of info .

I've always wondered what the truth was, Iv'e had mixed results.

On the one hand Ive got a strain called cheese wreck , had it for like over 6 years now. Keep a mum till it gets to big , then swap a cutting to be the new mum etc .

When it comes to the cheesewreck , I'd say its still the same as the first generation.

However I used to have a second strain called chronic haze.
After about 2 years I noticed that the plant started to flower no matter what sort of light was on it.
Not like propperly flowering , but it would develop buds. Had a very old big mum of it that actually grew some small nugs on it , they where getting atleast 16 hours light.

Both the cheesewreck and the chronic haze where vegged in the same area at the same time.

 

[LostTribe]

An unhealthy clone whose health does not recover will give you unhealthy cuttings. Nurse an unhealthy clone back to health and you will have healthy cuttings. DNA does not change just because a cutting is unhealthy, so I don't know what The Dude is talking about when he claims continual cloning degrades final product. As long as the mom remains healthy, all is well. I'm willing to bet he and other folks did not keep mothers as healthy as they thought they were.

Looking forward to your experiment.

So long as the cutting of a cutting is nursed back to health and allowed to reinvigorate itself given proper time and care would remain the exact same. The problem with running an experiment like this is how to actually tell whether cuts are considered the same health wise....all grows are slightly different depending on exact environmental conditions.

 

[frostqueen]

I had this discussion with a botanist and geneticist working on the DNA project that Sam the Skunkman is affiliated with. I had gone to them while researching the 'dud syndrome' problem. I was told that as long as full health and vigor is maintained in the parent plant, a clone from that plant is identical to the parent, and that this healthy state can last indefinitely. I have to agree after working on this problem for a few years now.

The caveat is this: cannabis is an annual. If the parent plant is in a stage of senescence (winding down of its life cycle) or ill-health and is not vigorous, when you take a clone of it you will have a new plant in a similar hormonal or distressed state, and this clone will have a much more difficult time re-invigorating to the point of reaching its genetic potential. It can recover, but it can take a few clone generations (and some continuing special treatment) for the vigor to fully return. People rarely go to the trouble of doing this, so it stands to reason that some might conclude that cannabis plants permanently 'drift' or 'fade'.

The gist of it is that there is not genetic drift happening; it is more about the hormonal and health state of the parent plant, which will then carry over to the offspring. Clones from unhealthy/tired plants don't just bounce back right away. It takes a while to reverse things, to get a plant that can reach its full genetic potential again. Add to this that each strain can be more or less prone to this residual lost-vigor effect, so some strains may seem more played out than others...

I tend to go with the botanists/geneticists on this one. Many of us have a ton of hands-on experience, but they know the science behind what is really happening inside the plant.

 

[raven44]

What ur buddy says, makes no sense for one reason alone in my mind

Ever worked with seed plants??

If one had, one would know that when u clone the seed plant sometimes the resulting clone will lose all vigor. And recess as I like to say.

For this reason, some breeders practice cloning the mom seed plant. Then cloning the resulting clone... and then finally cloning the resulting clone one last time to ensure that the plant does not lose its vigor when cloned. In other words to ensure that the plant clones well

Not only does it need to form.roots well, but it needs to not lose its vigor when cloned.

I had two B.B. plants side by seed from seed. When cloned out one of em grew half as fast all the sudden. However as seeds plants the grew at the same rate basically. So I culled the plant that grew much slower, it had obviously lost its vigor..

When breeding it pays to get ur cloning outta the way then test phenos by flowering. Don't even flower the seed plant clone it out a few times then get to testing... my two cents

 

[raven44]

I've also been told, with old moms introduced to invitro propogation techniques the moms will re gain possible lost vigor.

I guess the hormones required to grow in vitro kicks the plants back into gear like the day they were born u might say. So I'm told

 

[TreehouseJ]

I thought I would add here that we've been cloning clones of this purp strain for over 10 years. No moms. No problems. Same 1gpw yields. If it has lost any vigor, it's been totally negligable. I figured it might just be this bad ass strain, but.. I'm no botanist..