Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

[pop_rocks]

have the indentified anything we could do to "reinvigorate" the plant
or correct its hormonal imbalance?

im sure the plant naturally wants to bounce back from times of adversity(the clod days in summer/ warm days in fall/ any atypical weather in general), but how can we move this along?

 

[Big Sur]

I have grown clones for many generations of many types of plants, not just Cannabis. I have to say from my experience that there is generally zero degradation in either cloning (taking cuttings and rooting them and growing them out) or with re-vegging plants and re-flowering them. After several iterations of veg and flowering, they tend to get woody stems and can be harder to work with though. You have to prune them right.

As for another myth that I have busted, clones will grow every bit as large as seeds in my experience. If they are rooted better, they can grow even larger.

As for genetic variation, clones may or may not stay stable over more extreme periods of time. MJ can change phenotype on you in different growing environment and even change their expressed sex when flowering. Also most plants can and do throw out sports, which are genetically different than the parent plant. I have seen this more in perennials, but I have been re-vegging my mothers for several years now and growing them as perennials, though I have yet to see any of my Cannabis plants throw a sport. I would bet that it is possible though.

I have also grown over 100 types of garlic, and garlic does not flower. It is propagated by clove or bulbil only, which means it basically only propagates through clones. Over several millennia of cultivating it, garlic has genetically mutated into hundreds of different varieties. But in a short time line (within a human life span) each variety stays the same from clone generation to generation. I have also grown thousands of cymbidium orchids, and made many division of them as well. They bloom and flower the same as the original mothers, many generations later. I have also done thousands of meristem clones of orchids, and they turn out the same as the mother plants, with just as much vigor. I have also divided hundreds of various bamboo species specimens, and they do great until they flower, typically every 80 to 100 years. Then they all bloom at once worldwide, and then they all die, and a new seeded generation comes along. Meristem clones of bamboos do not seem to do as well as division clones though, for some unknown reason.

In a more general answer to the OP, I have access to a wide variety of medical MJ strains here that have been clone-only since the early 1990s. Who knows how many times they have been cloned, but they keep on going. I have cloned them many times more myself, and I have not noticed any degradation. Variation, yes, depending on the year; heat, sunny days, humidity, greenhoused, outside, inside under lights, HM vs Flouro vs LED, how much fertilizer and what type of soil, how early or late planted, how much/how many hours of light, etc. etc. They keep on cranking. The buds and highs are basically the same from year to year as well, but vary somewhat with early or late harvesting.

 

[Big Sur]

This also brings up another point about various cuts of clones. Take OG Kush, for example. There must be over 100 different cuts of that strain, and the two 'best' are supposedly Tahoe and Ghost. I have Ghost growing here myself. I have seen this strain sold as so many different strains it is insane. Even Leafly lists three different cuts of OG Kush in their Top 10 California Strains list. It would seem that some of these OG Kush cuts are actually F1 same clone crosses, or S1 self plant seeded, but most are the same damn genetic strain. It seems to vary so much in different growing conditions though that people name them differently thinking that they have mutated or changed.

One of OG Kush'd parents is the same, Chem Dog. Originally a selfed seedling of Dog Bud in Colorado, it has several siblings that are very similar. Chem Dog has morphed into more commonly being called Chem Dawg, and is also known as NYC Diesel. Same plant, different names.

 

[siftedunity]

after reading your posts id say I definitely agree with your point big sur. the only thing I have seen first hand is the taste/smell from a very old clone deteriorate. im not sue why or how but this is definitely the case. id say this particular cut is 20 to 25years old now. and no doubt has passed through hundreds of hand in that time.

 

[siftedunity]

regardless of age and abuse (virus's not withstanding) a clone of a clone is identical to a clone of the initial seed mom. viruss could explain "genetic degradation" but its not possible that a clone would acclimate to an environment or change dna to some how be a different pheno or a stunted version. identical in every way except for the possibility of carrying a systemic pathogen. acclimation occurs when off spring gain reproductive success more often because of a specific trait and thus increase their genetics into the gene pool by the simple mechanism of having a higher number of babies who then also breed more offspring if they carry the trait. it doesnt change an individual plants dna to expose it to new enviroments but it may cause the plant to temporarily acclimate itsself t anew hotter colder more or less arid enviroment through opening closing stomattas or other physical response mechanisms. however that would not make its cloned offspring more or less hardy. it be like saying that children would be more prone to goose bumps if their parents conceived them in the snow. genetic drift is pure myth. anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. this has been beat to death in the forums and is pretty well decided as bunk by scientific genetic theory as well as experience

have you not seen Jurassic park? ''life always finds a way''..


na jokes aside... I do somewhat agree but genetic drift has been scientifically found in other plants/trees. there are scientific papers which have shown this. its not been proven in cannabis though.
and you also could consider other plants which only reproduce via a form of cloning. these species have also evolved over time without the need for new genetic input from a male/female.


I think the discussion is very interesting but we are all experienced growers. what scientific theory found genetic drift to be bunk?


I will add that I don't keep mothers, I constantly clone from clone. and have not witnessed genetic drift in my experience with any cut at all.. but have an old cut which I do feel has experienced something. im not sure what but its changed for sure over time. for some reason.

 

[seeded]

From my experience clones deteriorate given poor conditions over multiple generations. The vigor is reduced, they can seemingly get stuck producing no more than 5 bladed leaves, the tastes and smells aren't as strong, etc. but they're still the same plant deep down.

That said I've also seen drastic improvements when poorly treated mothers plants are given a proper chance to get big. They've gone past the 5 bladed leaves, vigor has returned and the tastes and smells are as good as always. I've heard that people have had just as good if not better results putting their mothers outside and exposing them to the wild conditions and full spectrum of the sun but I've never done it so can't really comment too much other than to say it makes sense to me based on what I've seen indoors.