CANNAS TIP ON HIGHER YIELDS!!!!!!

[Dready_jake]

everyone's right! but in different contexts

everyone's right! but in different contexts

I think with a lot of people are forgetting context.
If you have a plant that's in a larger pot and its not fully rooted then its not going to drink as fast as a plant in the smaller pot that's completely rootbound.

Coco needs both at times. Dry periods for root production. Once its root bound you don't need it to root any further but will probably need multiple waterings per day.

The watering multiple times a day has the potential to reduce root growth but if the pots already full of roots then that doesn't make that much of a difference.

Its all based on the drink. A plant in a smaller size pot can focus on drinking where a plant in a larger pot first has to grow roots to accommodate the mass of water and medium without rot issues.

Every situation is different so if you transplant and jump from once every other to three times a day when the plant isn't ready for it. It might freak out or get root issues.

 

[glow]

And yet all the research shows us that high fertigation frequency produces higher yields (where the air to water ratio in the substrate is ideal) due to maintaining a better nutrient status in the root zone. I.e. several studies have shown that high fertigation frequency results in better nutrient status in the rootzone. Studies have demonstrated that increased fertigation frequency significantly increased plant yield, especially at low nutrient concentrations.

Studies have shown that high fertigation frequency maintains higher dissolved nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium concentration in the substrate, by shortening the period during which nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium retention takes place. Phosphorus (P) nutrient status is particularly improved under high fertigation frequency. Studies have shown that yield improvement as a result of high fertigation frequency is primarily related to the enhanced nutrient uptake of P. Thus, high fertigation frequency can serve as an efficient means of enhancing crop yield by improving the uptake by plants of less mobile nutrients. This is particularly true during periods of the most vigorous growth where the plants have high nutrient demand.... (See Raviv and Leith and Silber, A. 2008. High frequency irrigations as means for enhancement of nutrient use efficiency: Soilless grown bell pepper as a model plant Acta Horticulturae 779. ---- loads of others also)

So what Canna is really finding is that their coir has high water holding capacity and inadequate air capacity - therefore, they need to allow the media to dry to facilitate adequate root zone oxygen... That is even the best nutrient regime is worthless if inadequate oxygen (or water) is available to the roots. Nothing new there.... I.e.

(Quote)

“Cocopeat is considered as a good growing media component with acceptable pH, electrical conductivity and other chemical attributes. But it has been recognized to have high water holding capacity which causes poor air–water relationship, leading to low aeration within the medium, thus affecting the oxygen diffusion to the roots.”

(End Quote)

(see Awang, Yahya and Shaharom, Anieza Shazmi and Mohamad, Rosli and Selamat, Ahmad (2009) Chemical and physical characteristics of cocopeat-based media mixtures and their effects on the growth and development of celosia cristata. American Journal of Agricultural and Biological Sciences, 4 (1). pp. 63-71. ISSN 1557-4989 and others)

So, for example, where oxygen is inadequate phosphorus (P) uptake can be reduced by as much as 50%. Conversely, plants can take up only those nutrients that are dissolved in the soil solution. The term ‘soil solution’ refers to the film moisture in soil together with its dissolved substances (e.g. nutrient ions). Therefore, if water levels are inadequate nutrient availability is inadequate. However, as soil moisture begins to become excessive, while nutrients are available in adequate quantities, excess water excludes the needed oxygen from the soil and nutrient uptake begins to suffer due to the lack of oxygen.

Basically, if you were to improve the air filled porosity of the Canna Coco by adding perlite you could then irrigate more frequently and reduce the time that nutrient retention and depletion took place. Canna's information is flawed on this basis as what they are talking about is optimal water requirements in a substrate that has high water capacity and inadequate air capacity to cater for more feeds. Go well Glow

 

[panick503]

It's back from the dead...

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

It's back from the dead...

A pursuing higher yield thread never truly dies mate

 

[stoned40yrs]

Well this one should have stayed dead. Nothing to see here except some laughable ideas from the past.

 

[glow]

Well this one should have stayed dead. Nothing to see here except some laughable ideas from the past.

Perhaps you're right (the thread was on top of the list when I posted however) but no one seems to have raised the fact (or I missed it) that CANNA has interests in selling coir and has long maintained a party line that perlite shouldn't be mixed with their coir (contrary to reams of research that shows perlite and coir combos improve yields over straight coir or straight perlite).. Now they are really admitting that getting it right re irrigation frequency means increasing aeration in their coir - which is damned easy. Add perlite or another substrate that has high air filled porosity and low water holding capacity. Essentially CANNA are teaching growers how to do things the wrong way in order to make sales (e.g. if you add 30% perlite to their coir this means 30% less sales for them).

BTW - I'm wondering what you consider laughable.???

 

[glow]

A pursuing higher yield thread never truly dies mate

True Dat....

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

glow, if you look into Canna, they are not just another Nutrient company milking it, they spend a large part of their income on serious research on the plant.

There are clearly advances to come with coco coir, some say more feeding, some less, at times, all are probably on to something. 9 years ago I was sticking air bubblers in pots for outdoor trees, a storm blew my pump and enthusiasm off course, but there are things still worth investigation.

 

[BCNeil]

I think a lot of this outdated information, is when coco started being used, people continued using the same size pots.

The soil grower with 9 plants per light in 5-7 gallon pots, continued to use them.

Even today many people still feel the need for giant pots.

I use 2 gallons. I hand water and some days can't be around so I will water them once in the morning. 1.5 litres will give about 250ml of runoff per plant.
Compared to 3 feedings a day. A litre in the morning, and 500ml around noon, then 500ml later in the afternoon. With almost no runoff.

Multi watering....they eat and drink more......

 

[glow]

glow, if you look into Canna, they are not just another Nutrient company milking it, they spend a large part of their income on serious research on the plant.

There are clearly advances to come with coco coir, some say more feeding, some less, at times, all are probably on to something. 9 years ago I was sticking air bubblers in pots for outdoor trees, a storm blew my pump and enthusiasm off course, but there are things still worth investigation.

ChaosCatalunya I've been around the industry for over 20 years so I am well aware of who does what. To clarify, Canna just like any other industry member has interests in making money - in fact years ago (2000) I published a book on indoor growing teaching growers how to grow in coco and perlite combinations. Shortly after this the owner of Canna Australia began telling people I had it wrong and came up with some bizarre shit around particle charges of coir and perlite being in conflict.... Of course this was utter shit but some industry members actually bought it. This clown has cost growers a lot in yields as a result. Since then reams of research has shown that addition of perlite to coir increases AFP and as a result improves coir. So sorry - CANNA are just another company who is milking it. In fact they are milking it more than most because their nutrients are more pricey then any other nutrient on the market (given concentration).

Actually there is no debate whatsoever about the fact that increased irrigations improves nutrient status in the root zone. This becomes particularly important when discussing P which is partially immobilized in coir (more so than a fully inert low CEC substrate) Even when researchers talk about low irrigation frequency in RTW/DTW growing they are typically talking about 5 or more irrigations per day - while research has shown high irrigation events (20 per day) improves yields by approx 20%. Frankly, one feed a day is costing growers yields. Not that Canna gives a shit as long as they sell their coir. Point being what Canna is saying is that by letting the coir dry this adds 3% more air. See graph info following of how to improve air in coir.

Growing Media Water Holding Capacity Air Porosity
Coconut Coir 88.35 23.5
Perlite 19.63 41.1
Coir/Perlite 57.40 35.0

Compare the numbers of each substrate type. You will note that coir alone has a WHC of 88.35% and an AFP of 23.5% while perlite alone, a relatively larger particle, has a WHC of 19.63% and an AFP of 41.1%. By adding the perlite to the coir (smaller particles + larger particles) we increase the coir’s AFP to 35% and reduce WHC to 57.40%. Thus, AFP is increased 11.5% and WHC is decreased 30.95% by increasing the particle size distribution of coir with perlite. The result is a hydroponic substrate that drains well and promotes both adequate levels of water and air under various irrigation strategies. That is, a combination of coir and perlite tends to create a versatile growing medium which maintains good water and air status under both higher and lower irrigation events. The coir acts to hold plenty of water under lower irrigation events while the perlite acts to provide plenty of air under higher irrigation events

Always be wary of what industry interests tell you. That's the real message in this story. If Canna actually gave a shit about your yields they would be explaining how to use coir properly and all the research shows the best way to use a coir with high water holding capacity and comparatively far lower air porosity is to increase the particle size distribution through addition of a larger particle size media (e.g. perlite or add medium and large coir chips to increase AFP and reduce WHC etc)..

BTW = CANNA coir is over priced and there are far cheaper flushed and buffered high quality bagged coir substrates available. The key though to any substrate is the physical properties = particle size distribution, pore space which determines AFP and WHC.

 

[Dready_jake]

ChaosCatalunya I've been around the industry for over 20 years so I am well aware of who does what. To clarify, Canna just like any other industry member has interests in making money - in fact years ago (2000) I published a book on indoor growing teaching growers how to grow in coco and perlite combinations. Shortly after this the owner of Canna Australia began telling people I had it wrong and came up with some bizarre shit around particle charges of coir and perlite being in conflict.... Of course this was utter shit but some industry members actually bought it. This clown has cost growers a lot of yields as a result. Since then reams of research has shown that addition of perlite to coir increases AFP and as a result improves coir. So sorry - CANNA are just another company who is milking it.

Actually there is no debate whatsoever about the fact that increased irrigations improves nutrient status in the root zone. This becomes particularly important when discussing P which is partially immobilized in coir (more so than a fully inert low CEC substrate) Even when researchers talk about low irrigation frequency in RTW/DTW growing they are typically talking about 5 or more irrigations per day - while research has shown high irrigation events (20 per day) improves yields by approx 20%. Frankly, one feed a day is costing growers yields. Not that Canna gives a shit as long as they sell their coir. Point being what Canna is saying is that by letting the coir dry this adds 3% more air. See graph info following of how to improve air in coir.

Growing Media Water Holding Capacity Air Porosity
Coconut Coir 88.35 23.5
Perlite 19.63 41.1
Coir/Perlite 57.40 35.0

Compare the numbers of each substrate type. You will note that coir alone has a WHC of 88.35% and an AFP of 23.5% while perlite alone, a relatively larger particle, has a WHC of 19.63% and an AFP of 41.1%. By adding the perlite to the coir (smaller particles + larger particles) we increase the coir’s AFP to 35% and reduce WHC to 57.40%. Thus, AFP is increased 11.5% and WHC is decreased 30.95% by increasing the particle size distribution of coir with perlite. The result is a hydroponic substrate that drains well and promotes both adequate levels of water and air under various irrigation strategies. That is, a combination of coir and perlite tends to create a versatile growing medium which maintains good water and air status under both higher and lower irrigation events. The coir acts to hold plenty of water under lower irrigation events while the perlite acts to provide plenty of air under higher irrigation events

Always be wary of what industry interests tell you. That's the real message in this story. If Canna actually gave a shit about your yields they would be explaining how to use coir properly and all the research shows the best way to use a coir with high water holding capacity and comparatively far lower air porosity is to increase the particle size distribution through addition of a larger particle size media (e.g. perlite or add medium and large coir chips to increase AFP and reduce WHC etc)..

BTW = CANNA coir is over priced and there are far cheaper flushed and buffered high quality bagged coir substrates available. The key though to any substrate is the physical properties = particle size distribution, pore space which determines AFP and WHC.

Great points glow. On that note of industry interests. The multiple irrigations a day requires a smaller root bound pot.. I.E. LESS COCO USED! With their method of once a day would require a larger more soil sized pot which requires more coco and cost more money which goes in their pocket so great point glow I completely agree.

And secondly sorry to bring this back to life... I'm just trying to get to 50 posts and this one piqued my interest lol I'm no necromancer

 

[berad4guvna]

Glow what up! Sorry to high jack hear. I cant PM for like 39 more posts. Can you PM me a good contact method for you, me and a buddy have tried to reach you through Manic Botanics site. "great site content by the way!"

To add. fertigators are common practice in commercial greenhouse settings. They are also being integrated into large filed crop production.

Whats a fertigator?

I cant believe I used to pay for this shit. LOL Canna Boost Accelerator 5 Liters Bloom Nutrient Enhancer
Canna Boost Accelerator 5L $369.90

 

[Dready_jake]

Hijacking a dead thread... Have you no shame lol

 

[berad4guvna]

@Dready jake I don't get your comment? I'm not hear to argue with you.

The highjack comment was about reaching out to Glow on the open forum.

The picture ^ was taken in my upper division greenhouse lab. "I thought a few people might appreciate the picture." If you don't sorry.

FYI I see how old the thread is. It has current a relevant posts, I'm not sure how its dead?

Peace

 

[Dready_jake]

I was joking around about people saying the thread was dead. it was a literally all in jest man. Haha where's the sarcasm key again lol

 

[glow]

Great points glow. On that note of industry interests. The multiple irrigations a day requires a smaller root bound pot.. I.E. LESS COCO USED! With their method of once a day would require a larger more soil sized pot which requires more coco and cost more money which goes in their pocket so great point glow I completely agree.

And secondly sorry to bring this back to life... I'm just trying to get to 50 posts and this one piqued my interest lol I'm no necromancer

Actually Dready_Jake high fertigation frequency certainly doesn't require a smaller pot where the plant is root bound. It certainly helps to have the drip emitters placed in a way that best maximizes the flow through of nutrient to the root zone. Root bound plants are definitely not the way to go and this too will impact on nutrient uptake.... I.e. to cut and paste from Michael Raviv, Heiner Lieth Soilless Culture: Theory and Practice Growing Plants in
Soilless Culture: Operational Conclusions

"...root restriction reduces both nutrient uptake per plant
and nutrient uptake per unit root when the buffer capacity and the rate of replenishment of the growing medium are the limiting factors. When the growing system enables maintaining a constant concentration of each nutrient at the root surface (as is the
case in NFT, DFT, aeroponics and with very frequent irrigation pulses), the ability of the restricted root system to meet the plant requirements is not the primary limiting factor. The minimal root size to meet plant nutritional requirement for nitrogen and other mobile nutrients is much smaller than that required for water supply, aeration and other physiological demands. However, the supply of phosphate and calcium may be the limiting factors as a result of restricted root system.."

The problem is that substrate science is perhaps the most misunderstood environmental factor (i.e. the root zone environment) and the misinformation and disinformation abounds. Prob is to truly get substrate science you pretty much need a physics degree (+ chem degree will also help) so its understandable the growers and industry interests get it wrong. Another major problem with pots that are too small is roots fill pores which act as air space so root bound plants are also reducing media AFP.... Basically though high irrigation frequency is shown to improve yields in varying situations and is not limited to root bound plants. Anyone who is feeding only once a day is depriving their plants. So in short for years and years Canna have been telling people that multiples of small feeds is the way to go - at the same time they have been wanking on about the myth of adding perlite. Now they come out and tell everyone for years they had it wrong and that now only one feed a day is the go (meantime of course for years had growers been taking their advice they were losing yield). Of course this is a simple admission of what science has long known ---- I.e. “Cocopeat is considered as a good growing media component with acceptable pH, electrical conductivity and other chemical attributes. But it has been recognized to have high water holding capacity which causes poor air–water relationship, leading to low aeration within the medium, thus affecting the oxygen diffusion to the roots.”

Of course rather than tell people to mix a higher air porosity substrate into their low AFP high WHC coir they rant on about yet another method to lose yield. Its sad how growers buy this shit.

 

[Dready_jake]

Sorry root bound wasnt the right word. Not root bound but well rooted, start watering a fresh transplant and hell Drown. I've found I need to do wet and dry days to fill out roots then you can up to multi feedings.

 

[Meison]

Actually Dready_Jake high fertigation frequency certainly doesn't require a smaller pot where the plant is root bound. It certainly helps to have the drip emitters placed in a way that best maximizes the flow through of nutrient to the root zone. Root bound plants are definitely not the way to go and this too will impact on nutrient uptake.... I.e. to cut and paste from Michael Raviv, Heiner Lieth Soilless Culture: Theory and Practice Growing Plants in
Soilless Culture: Operational Conclusions

"...root restriction reduces both nutrient uptake per plant
and nutrient uptake per unit root when the buffer capacity and the rate of replenishment of the growing medium are the limiting factors. When the growing system enables maintaining a constant concentration of each nutrient at the root surface (as is the
case in NFT, DFT, aeroponics and with very frequent irrigation pulses), the ability of the restricted root system to meet the plant requirements is not the primary limiting factor. The minimal root size to meet plant nutritional requirement for nitrogen and other mobile nutrients is much smaller than that required for water supply, aeration and other physiological demands. However, the supply of phosphate and calcium may be the limiting factors as a result of restricted root system.."

The problem is that substrate science is perhaps the most misunderstood environmental factor (i.e. the root zone environment) and the misinformation and disinformation abounds. Prob is to truly get substrate science you pretty much need a physics degree (+ chem degree will also help) so its understandable the growers and industry interests get it wrong. Another major problem with pots that are too small is roots fill pores which act as air space so root bound plants are also reducing media AFP.... Basically though high irrigation frequency is shown to improve yields in varying situations and is not limited to root bound plants. Anyone who is feeding only once a day is depriving their plants. So in short for years and years Canna have been telling people that multiples of small feeds is the way to go - at the same time they have been wanking on about the myth of adding perlite. Now they come out and tell everyone for years they had it wrong and that now only one feed a day is the go (meantime of course for years had growers been taking their advice they were losing yield). Of course this is a simple admission of what science has long known ---- I.e. “Cocopeat is considered as a good growing media component with acceptable pH, electrical conductivity and other chemical attributes. But it has been recognized to have high water holding capacity which causes poor air–water relationship, leading to low aeration within the medium, thus affecting the oxygen diffusion to the roots.”

Of course rather than tell people to mix a higher air porosity substrate into their low AFP high WHC coir they rant on about yet another method to lose yield. Its sad how growers buy this shit.

Very interesting stuff you mention in your posts, I like real evidence hehe

What do you think about DJM Coco tree's? He root bounds the plants to 5gal 100% coir and dtw several times a day!

I'm interested in your opinion about that, because for him its working out! And I'm in the veg state of my first complete coco run and I don't want to fuck up the pot size from the start.

 

[Dready_jake]

Good call him and glow are great sources IMO asking is the first step.lol assuming is the wrong direction. My input would be depending in how big you're Finnishing is a huge part. I'm using little 4inch pots so I only have to veg for a few weeks then straight into flower and multi waterings daily. First time doing multi water. I treated coco like soil last time around

 

[berad4guvna]

Question for Glow

Question for Glow

Actually Dready_Jake high fertigation frequency certainly doesn't require a smaller pot where the plant is root bound. It certainly helps to have the drip emitters placed in a way that best maximizes the flow through of nutrient to the root zone. Root bound plants are definitely not the way to go and this too will impact on nutrient uptake.... I.e. to cut and paste from Michael Raviv, Heiner Lieth Soilless Culture: Theory and Practice Growing Plants in
Soilless Culture: Operational Conclusions

"...root restriction reduces both nutrient uptake per plant
and nutrient uptake per unit root when the buffer capacity and the rate of replenishment of the growing medium are the limiting factors. When the growing system enables maintaining a constant concentration of each nutrient at the root surface (as is the
case in NFT, DFT, aeroponics and with very frequent irrigation pulses), the ability of the restricted root system to meet the plant requirements is not the primary limiting factor. The minimal root size to meet plant nutritional requirement for nitrogen and other mobile nutrients is much smaller than that required for water supply, aeration and other physiological demands. However, the supply of phosphate and calcium may be the limiting factors as a result of restricted root system.."

The problem is that substrate science is perhaps the most misunderstood environmental factor (i.e. the root zone environment) and the misinformation and disinformation abounds. Prob is to truly get substrate science you pretty much need a physics degree (+ chem degree will also help) so its understandable the growers and industry interests get it wrong. Another major problem with pots that are too small is roots fill pores which act as air space so root bound plants are also reducing media AFP.... Basically though high irrigation frequency is shown to improve yields in varying situations and is not limited to root bound plants. Anyone who is feeding only once a day is depriving their plants. So in short for years and years Canna have been telling people that multiples of small feeds is the way to go - at the same time they have been wanking on about the myth of adding perlite. Now they come out and tell everyone for years they had it wrong and that now only one feed a day is the go (meantime of course for years had growers been taking their advice they were losing yield). Of course this is a simple admission of what science has long known ---- I.e. “Cocopeat is considered as a good growing media component with acceptable pH, electrical conductivity and other chemical attributes. But it has been recognized to have high water holding capacity which causes poor air–water relationship, leading to low aeration within the medium, thus affecting the oxygen diffusion to the roots.”

Of course rather than tell people to mix a higher air porosity substrate into their low AFP high WHC coir they rant on about yet another method to lose yield. Its sad how growers buy this shit.

@Glow, can you recommend a good powder based nutrient company? If you've covered this else were please feel free to link me.

FYI Glow I find your posts quite informative.

Thanks